Poland's Prime Minister on Ukraine War and Energy Crisis

[kaima]

Poland's Prime Minister on Ukraine War and Energy Crisis "Germany's Policies Have Done Tremendous Damage To Europe"

In an interview, Polish Prime Minister Mateusz Morawiecki argues that Berlin has been too tentative in Ukraine and misguided with its energy policies. He also reiterates his country's demand for World War II reparations and accuses the European Union of plotting against Warsaw.

Interview Conducted by Jan Puhl

09.09.2022, 17.31 Uhr


About Mateusz Morawiecki


Mateusz Morawiecki

Mateusz Morawiecki, 54, has served as prime minister of the national conservative government in Warsaw since 2017. As a youth, he joined the resistance against Poland's communist rulers. He studied history and later business administration and worked in senior positions at banks. He caused a stir in March when he joined PiS leader Jarosław Kaczyński, Czech Prime Minister Petr Fiala and then Slovenian Prime Minister Janez Janša as one of the first European leaders to travel to besieged Kyiv.


PiS (the National Conservative Law and Justice -government- party [Prawo i Sprawiedliwość]) leader Jarosław Kaczyński

DER SPIEGEL: Mr. Prime Minister, Poland has been seen as a proponent of a hard-line toward Moscow in the Ukraine war, whereas Germany is more inclined to put the brakes on tougher measures. Is that impression still true?

Morawiecki: The position taken by the Germans, especially in the initial months of the war, was very disappointing. We are convinced that Ukraine is fighting not only for its own survival, but for Europe's freedom. If Ukraine falls, it would only be a matter of time before Putin attacks the next country. It was disappointing for the Poles that the Germans were so late in acknowledging their energy policy mistakes. Putin uses pipelines as weapons. For him they are an instrument of warfare. Ukraine drove the enemy back faster than the Germans were able to make decisions.

DER SPIEGEL: The swap deal that has been agreed to – according to which Poland will supply Ukraine with weapons that Germany then replaces from Bundeswehr stocks – still isn't working.

Morawiecki: What counts is not what is written on paper, but what is actually implemented. Poland has supplied weapons worth well over $2 billion already, 300 tanks and other heavy equipment. Berlin's hesitation, its inaction, seriously calls into question the value of the alliance with Germany. And we are not the only ones saying that. I am hearing this from quite a few other heads of government in Europe, as well.

DER SPIEGEL 37/2022

The article you are reading originally appeared in German in issue 37/2022 (September 10th, 2022) of DER SPIEGEL.

SPIEGEL International

DER SPIEGEL: In the initial days after the Russian invasion, Chancellor Olaf Scholz announced a watershed shift for Germany, indicating a willingness to invest more in the country's military. Do you have understanding for the fact that it takes time to bid farewell to previous political convictions?


The German Chancellor Olaf Scholz

Morawiecki: It's not always about the Copernican Turn in politics, but about very simple decisions. In June, the European Union decided to give Ukraine 9 billion euros. Kyiv has to pay civil servants, the fire department, doctors, nurses and the police. The state has to survive and, of course, has problems collecting taxes in times of war. That is why things must happen quickly. The German position is vital. I understand that some things take time, but others should also be quite simple. One example: In 2016, the EU transferred billions to Turkey in a very short period of time to support refugees there. Today, Ukraine is defending our values, and the money is flowing like blood from the nose, as we say in Poland, meaning very slowly.

DER SPIEGEL: How will the Ukraine crisis affect Germany's role in Europe?

Morawiecki: It is becoming clear that German energy policy is in ruins. The phaseout of coal and nuclear power was premature, and we don't even need to talk about the construction of Nord Stream 1 and 2 and the associated dependence on Russia. Germany's policies have inflicted tremendous damage on Europe.



DER SPIEGEL: Have the countries in Eastern Europe gained in stature as a result?

Morawiecki: Clearly, yes, our voice is heard to a much greater degree. We were right, after all, with all our warnings about Russia. The Germans have always been very conciliatory towards Moscow, bowing down to Russia. Perhaps many in Germany don't know this: Trade with the countries of the Visegrád Group – the Czech Republic, Slovakia, Hungary and Poland – is significantly larger than trade with China, the U.S. or France. Germany should nurture and cultivate such partners rather than patronizing the Poles.


Western howitzers deployed in Ukraine: "We are convinced that Ukraine is fighting not only for its own survival, but for Europe's freedom." Foto: Julia Kochetova / DER SPIEGEL

DER SPIEGEL: Your government wants Germany to pay 1.3 trillion euros in reparations for the destruction caused during World War II. Do you think you will ever get the money?

Morawiecki: The equivalent of 6.2 trillion zloty, that is not such a fantastic sum. The budget of the entire Federal Republic of Germany, meaning the budget of the federal government together with that of the states, is almost as large. Poland is the country upon which the most destruction was visited in World War II, but we were never compensated for it. We will first address the Berlin government with a diplomatic note. We also consider the Germans' legal analyses, according to which Poland waived reparations in an agreement with the GDR in 1953, to be wrong. The Soviet Union forced Poland to do so at the time. The Poles could hardly demand reparations from a socialist "brother nation." Moscow coerced its proxy in Warsaw, Bolesław Bierut, to agree, and the issue wasn't even brought before the Polish parliament. No ratification documents were submitted to the United Nations. We do not recognize the agreement. We want to hold talks in Berlin and also invite representatives of Israel, since half of the Polish victims were citizens of Jewish heritage. It is possible that we will also take our claims to international courts at a later stage. We will go all around the world to present the report, which takes into account not only human and material losses, but also that of cultural assets.


Moscow coerced its proxy in Warsaw, Bolesław Bierut, to agree, and the issue wasn't even brought before the Polish parliament


Warsaw 1945


Warsaw 1945


Warsaw 1945

"Today, completely false arguments are being used against Poland, which is defending the EU's eastern flank."

DER SPIEGEL: Brussels has frozen some 35 billion euros in corona aid because of doubts about rule of law in Poland. Can this dispute still be resolved?

Morawiecki: If the European Commission and two of the most important Western capitals, Paris and Berlin, conclude that we have to stick together in times of war, then yes. Today, completely false arguments are being used against Poland, which is defending the EU's eastern flank.

DER SPIEGEL: What does rule of law have to do with the war?

Morawiecki: I think the accusations against us are absurd. After reunification, the Germans vetted the entire judiciary and prosecutors of the GDR, and only 30 percent were allowed to continue working. In our country, the communist judges remained in office.

DER SPIEGEL: But that was 30 years ago.

Morawiecki: It has, however, left traces in the thinking of today's judges and certain practices, so we wanted to reform our judiciary. I see more of a problem with the rule of law in the European institutions, because they presume to have the right to judge Poland's judicial reform, but they do not have that right under the EU Treaty.

DER SPIEGEL: Do you suspect there are political goals behind the allegations coming from Brussels?

Morawiecki: I have repeatedly tried to explain to many of my colleagues in Europe that our judicial reform does not damage the rule of law in Poland, it restores it. Either they didn't understand, they didn't want to understand, or they are pursuing very different goals than they claim.

DER SPIEGEL: What do you mean by that?

Morawiecki: Poland's importance is growing. We helped enforce the sanctions against Russia, we have established a joint Central Eastern European policy with Romania and Bulgaria in the Visegrád Group. As by far the largest country, we highlight the problems of the region. Poland is a locomotive of development in Europe. We articulate the experiences and interests of the countries that experienced communism. We represent diversity in Europe, and diversity is a value in itself. Maybe our role isn't to everyone's liking.

"If Ukraine were dependent on Germany within the framework of a European defense policy, it would no longer exist today."
DER SPIEGEL: You are claiming that the criticism from the European Court of Justice and the European Commission is intended to weaken Poland?

Morawiecki: The fact that it is a pretext can be seen in the fact that in Spain, the judicial election body and the judges are appointed in almost the same way as in our country. But it doesn't seem to bother anyone when it is done there. I don't want to say that it is only about weakening Poland. The misconceptions about our country and the radicalism of some members of the European Parliament, including some Poles, also play a role. Fortunately, we were able to maintain unity in Europe when it came to implementing sanctions against Russia.


Devastation in Warsaw during World War II: "The equivalent of 6.2 trillion zloty, that is not such a fantastic sum." Foto: Archiv Heinrich Hoffmann / Bayerische Staatsbibliothek / bpk

DER SPIEGEL: Your old partner, Hungarian Prime Minister Viktor Orbán, is trying to avoid taking a tough stance toward Moscow. Do you still have understanding for him?

Morawiecki: The other day, I read results from a polling institute. They show that the vast majority of Hungarians feel the same way about the war as Orbán does, whether I like it or not.

DER SPIEGEL: Because Orbán's party controls the majority of the media in Hungary.


Cartoon about Viktor Orbán's media crackdown in Hungary

Morawiecki: But also no more so than the political mainstream in Western Europe controls the media there. It is difficult to have a dissenting opinion. So far, Hungary has always agreed to the sanctions. As such, I still see a foundation for cooperation.

DER SPIEGEL: Poland's Law and Justice party (PiS), to which you also belong, has always been critical of a further deepening of the EU. Has this position changed, with Europe moving closer together in the Ukraine crisis.

Morawiecki: There are areas where further integration is worthwhile, but there are also areas of ideology that create enormous tensions. In those areas, the nation states should retain their authority.

DER SPIEGEL: Are you referring to equal rights for gay people?

Morawiecki: These people have equal rights in Poland, there is no discrimination here. We are of the belief that further integration is not automatically better than diversity. One example: The northern countries want the European Central Bank to raise the key interest rate to stop inflation. Southern countries fear this could stifle their economies. What should the ECB do?


Equality Parade (Polish: Parada Równości) is an LGBT community pride parade held in Warsaw since 2001, usually in May or June. It has attracted at least several thousand attendees each year; 20,000 attendees (the largest number of any year prior to 2017) were reported in 2006, following an official ban in 2004 and 2005. In 2018, there were 45,000 attendees. In 2019, there were 50,000 attendees. It's a member of EPOA and InterPride.

DER SPIEGEL: But Poland could agree to a defense union?

Morawiecki: We have been calling for steps in this direction for years. The Ukraine crisis has shown that the strongest guarantor of security is the U.S. If Ukraine were dependent on Germany within the framework of a European defense policy, it would no longer exist today.

DER SPIEGEL: How can the Ukraine war end?

Morawiecki: Additional sanctions will further harm the Russian economy. Putin is still able to pretend everything is fine. In a dictatorship, the rulers don't have to care about the opinion of the people. But this system will erode in a few months. Perhaps there won't be a revolution, but increasing pressure to end the war. For now, we have to help Ukraine get through a hard winter.

[pieter]

Ron,

Thank you very much for posting this interview with the Polish prime minister. I read it with great interest. Maybe Mateusz Morawiecki being less diplomatic than opposition leader Donald Tusk I think he is to critical of Germany and to little critical of Hungary. Viktor Orbán just visited Moscow. Officially he will say that that was for the funeral of Mikhail Gorbachev, but it might be an excuse to visit Putin and strenghen ties between Hungary and Russia.

Cheers,
Pieter

[pieter]

Dear Ron,

It is very good to see the Polish perspective for a change, because you hear or see that perspective very seldomly in the European or American press. Western-Europe is very critical about Poland and Hungary in Central Europe. I speak about the EU, and countries like the Netherlands, Belgium, Luxemburg, France, Germany, Sweden and etc.

Pieter



EU's top court says Polish rules on appointing judges violate EU law

The European Court of Justice ruled that powers wielded by the Polish justice minister are against the EU law in the most recent clash with Warsaw over judicial independence in Poland.


Many Poles oppose the government's judicial reforms

The European Court of Justice for instance ruled in November 2021 that powers wielded by the Polish justice minister are against the EU law in the most recent clash with Warsaw over judicial independence in Poland.

The European Court of Justice (ECJ) ruled that the ability of the Polish government to appoint and remove Polish judges from trials is in violation of EU law.

According to reforms pushed through by Warsaw, Polish Justice Minister Zbigniew Ziobro has the power to move judges to higher courts — known as secondment — and, if he chooses, to end their temporary appointment without giving reason or recourse.

"During the period of those judges' secondment, they are not provided with the guarantees and the independence which all judges should normally enjoy in a state governed by the rule of law," the top EU court said in a statement.

The decision in November 2021 came just weeks after another case on the rule of law in Poland saw the ECJ fine Warsaw €1 million ($1.14 million) a day.

Watch video interview with the Polish politician and journalist who is a Member of European Parliament and and Polish Minister of Foreign Affairs in Donald Tusk's cabinet between 2007 and 2014, Radosław Sikorski: www.dw.com/en/eus-top-court-says-polish-rules-on-appointing-judges-violate-eu-law/a-59833245

Challenge to judicial independence

The ECJ took on the case after a Polish court questioned the government's ability to intervene and decide which judges sit on panels for criminal cases.

The EU's top court pointed to the lack of legal criteria for the decisions taken by the justice minister. Because of this gap, the necessary guarantees against the risk of political control over judicial decisions are missing, the judges ruled.

This blending of judicial and executive power challenges the independence of the judicial system, according to the Luxembourg-based court.

The ECJ said that the risk of bias from appointed judges undermines the presumption of innocence of the defendants they are judging.



EU court voids decision by Polish judge found to lack independence

Reuters: By Gabriela Baczynska and Anna Wlodarczak-semczuk

A European court found on Wednesday that Poland broke democratic norms by appointing judges who are not sufficiently independent, and declared a decision by one such judge to be void, escalating a conflict between the EU and Poland's ruling nationalists.

Warsaw and its critics alike said the ruling, ostensibly in the narrow case of a judge who fought his transfer to another job, could have wide implications for Poland's legal system.

The Luxembourg-based Court of Justice of the EU (ECJ) found that Poland had denied judge Waldemar Zurek, who served in a civil court in Krakow, his right to a fair appeal of his transfer.

Waldemar Jan Żurek (born January 6, 1970 in Chrzanów) - Polish lawyer, judge of the District Court in Kraków. Member of the National Council of the Judiciary of two terms (2010-2018), press spokesman of the Council until March 2018. ( pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waldemar_%C5%BBurek )

A Supreme Court judge who reviewed Zurek's case had himself been appointed in a way that "cast reasonable doubts... as to his neutrality", which meant Zurek's dismissal "must be declared null and void", it ruled.

Polish Prime Minister Mateusz Morawiecki described the ruling as "an attempt to hit at the very heart of the social and legal system", and said it could affect "hundreds of thousands" of Polish legal decisions.



Poland smacked down again by top EU court

The judgement is a blow against Poland’s powerful Justice Minister Zbigniew Ziobro.


Polish Justice Minister Zbigniew Ziobro | Rafal Guz/EPA-EFE

By Zosia Wanat
November 16, 2021 1:49 pm

Polish rules allowing the justice minister to assign and remove judges from higher criminal courts violate EU law, the EU’s top court ruled on Tuesday.

“The requirement that judges be independent means that the rules relating to such secondments must provide the necessary guarantees in order to prevent any risk of those secondments being used as a means of exerting political control over the content of judicial decisions, including in criminal matters,” the Court of Justice of the EU said in a statement.

The judgement is a blow against Poland’s powerful justice minister, Zbigniew Ziobro, who is also the country’s chief prosecutor. He is one of the main forces behind five years of deep changes to the Polish justice system, which critics say are aimed at bringing courts under tighter political control — and which has set off a deepening conflict between the nationalist government and the European Union.

Cheers,
Pieter

Sources/Links:

www.reuters.com/world/europe/top-eu-court-rules-poland-wrongly-transferred-critical-judge-2021-10-06/
www.dw.com/en/eus-top-court-says-polish-rules-on-appointing-judges-violate-eu-law/a-59833245
www.politico.eu/article/poland-zbigniew-ziobro-justice-top-eu-court/

[pieter]

[pieter]

[pieter]

[pieter]

[pieter]

Janusz Lewandowski



Janusz Antoni Lewandowski (born 13 June 1951) is a Polish politician of the center right Polish liberal conservative opposition party Civic Platform (Polish: Platforma Obywatelska, PO) and economist belonging to the Gdańsk liberals group, and a former member of the European Parliament (elected on 13 June 2004), Chairman of the Committee on Budgets. On 27 November 2009 he obtained the post of Budget and Financial Programming Commissioner of the European Commission and is affiliated to the European People's Party (EPP). He was re-elected for the 8th term (2014–2019) of the European Parliament, as a member of the EPP group.



Today the Polish Hungarian relationship is complicated, because Poland has good ties with Kiev (Ukraine) and Hungary has good ties with Russia (Moscow/Putin). This Bloomburg interview is old, but accurate on the situation of the EU, Poland and Hungary on the long term.

[pieter]

[pieter]

Hundreds of judges from across Europe dressed in formal black robes marched in Warsaw in januari 2020 to protest a draft Polish law aimed at punishing justices who question the government's controversial court reforms.

Lawyers and citizens joined the protest, arguing that the legislation backed by Poland's right-wing government undermines judicial independence and the rule of law.

"We have come here to support the Polish judges but we are not politicians," John MacMenamin, an Irish Supreme Court judge, told reporters.

"We are here about the rule of law, not about politics," he added.

While the government insists the reform will tackle corruption, the opposition says the ruling Law and Justice party (PiS) wants to gag critical magistrates.

[pieter]

On Tuesday 1 February, from 11:00 to 12:00 CET, the European Movement Belgium and the European Movement International held an online discussion featuring Didier Reynders, European Commissioner for Justice, entitled Rule of Law in the EU: How is the European Commission addressing challenges in Hungary and Poland?

Ever since the initiation of the European project, the rule of law has formed a cornerstone of the European construction and is one of the founding principles of our Union. On several occasions, however, Member State governments have undermined and continue to undermine the rule of law in their own jurisdictions.

Our guest Didier Reynders, European Commissioner for Justice, joined us to discuss the European Commission’s framework built to maintain the coherence and consistency of democracy, and guarantee unity at a time when the European Union is confronted with breaches of the rule of law from within.

[pieter]

The Polish opposition leader of Platforma Obywatelska



European People's Party

I see the former Dutch center right, social conservative, Calvinist, Christian Democratic prime minister Jan Peter Balkenende in this video of Donald Tusk next to Joseph Alexander Daul (born 13 April 1947) in the beginning of the Video when Tusk addresses Daul. Jan Pieter "Jan Peter" Balkenende Jr. (born 7 May 1956) is a Dutch politician of the Christian Democratic Appeal (CDA) party and jurist who served as Prime Minister of the Netherlands from 22 July 2002 to 14 October 2010. The European People's Party (EPP) is a European political party with Christian-democratic, conservative, and liberal-conservative member parties. A transnational organisation, it is composed of other political parties. Founded by primarily Christian-democratic parties in 1976, it has since broadened its membership to include liberal-conservative parties and parties with other centre-right political perspectives.

[karl]

It would appear at least on the surface, Mr. Jaroslaw Kaczynski is rational enough, but then comes some times a thought of wonder, where is this man coming from?

After all these years after the war, and his mind seems not to understand reality, for reparations were paid to Poland as well as to other war effected states, and now he turns up this subject like a resurfaced bad penny.

www.spectator.co.uk/article/why-poland-wants-germany-to-pay-war-reparations

William Nattrass

Why Poland wants Germany to pay war reparations
4 September 2022, 12:00am
Why Poland wants Germany to pay war reparations

Poland commemorated the 83rd anniversary of its invasion by Nazi Germany this week. To mark the occasion the leader of the country’s ruling Law and Justice (PiS) party, Jarosław Kaczyński, announced that Poland was once again seeking reparations for the invasion from Germany. Speaking from the Royal Castle in Warsaw, Kaczyński unveiled a report which put the damages inflicted on Poland by the Nazis at over $1.3 trillion.

He did not specify the period over which Germany is expected to pay, only saying the path to obtaining reparations 'will take a long time and will not be easy.' The legal procedure is also unclear – a spokesperson said it is hoped Germany will 'draw the appropriate conclusions' from reading the report, but if not 'we will take further action, including formal action on the international stage.'

Kaczyński said reparations were needed to 'rebuild normality in the functioning of the Polish state' as the effects of the Nazi occupation 'in many cases continue to this day.' The new report takes into account the destruction of Polish cities, infrastructure and industry during the war, as well as lost economic potential caused by the murder of millions of civilians.

Poland argues that although Germany paid out reparations to other states, its claims were not dealt with fairly while the country was part of the eastern bloc. Germany has compensated individual Polish victims of Nazi atrocities, but Berlin points out that Poland officially waived its right to reparations in 1953 under a territorial agreement with East Germany. Poland says that agreement was made under pressure from the Soviet Union and cannot be considered binding.

The Polish government has now been calling for war reparations from Germany for years. Yet the publication of the report moves the campaign into a new phase – while adding to an already severe deterioration in modern German-Polish relations.

Germany has flatly rejected the possibility of paying out. When the issue was raised during Olaf Scholz’s first visit as German chancellor to Warsaw in December 2021, Scholz reiterated Berlin’s position that the matter is closed and suggested that Germany’s net contributions to the EU budget should be considered sufficient compensation.

But for many Poles, this isn’t good enough. Surveys released to coincide with the publication of the reparations report show that around half of the country believes Poland is right to press its claims. Opinion is split along party lines: those in favour are overwhelmingly eurosceptic, while those against the move mostly consist of supporters of the pro-EU opposition led by former European Council president Donald Tusk.

Tusk has been dismissive of the reparations drive, saying 'everyone would like Poland to get more money for various reasons' but that he is 'concerned about the prospect' of re-opening historical wounds. Tusk portrays the claims as an 'unrealistic story' told by the government to distract people from a mounting economic crisis with Polish general elections approaching next year.

Now is hardly a good time for European nations to be pressing enormous historical financial claims on each other. An energy crisis threatens to plunge the continent into recession – inflation in Poland stands at 16.1 per cent and the country reported negative GDP growth for the second quarter of 2022. The outlook for Germany’s stagnant economy is also grim.

But there is a moral and political dimension here, which have been cast in a new light by Russia’s invasion of Ukraine. With Poland assuming a position of leadership in opposing Putin's aggression, there is growing bitterness in the country about Germany’s stance. Poland holds Germany accountable for the EU’s inability to take more substantial punitive steps against the Kremlin – it’s seen as a travesty that after years of Warsaw warning Berlin about energy dependency on Moscow, Putin is now able to put all of Europe on the back foot by strangling gas flows.

This has led to a Polish stream of invective directed at Berlin, including recent warnings from Kaczyński of a 'German-Russian plan to rule over Europe.' The PiS leader said 'an independent, economically, socially and militarily strong Poland is an obstacle for them. From a historical perspective, this is nothing new.'

Coming from arguably Poland’s most influential politician, the implication of this is striking: that the modern German-Russian energy axis is comparable to historical wrongs such as the partitioning of Poland by Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union under the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact. Kaczyński has also portrayed the European Court of Justice as an 'instrument' of Berlin and said Poles are 'not enthusiastic at the prospect of a German Fourth Reich being built on the basis of the EU.'

He was referring to arguments with the EU over Polish judicial reforms, which took a back seat after Russia invaded Ukraine but resurfaced in August as Brussels doubled down on its refusal to pay out funds worth €35 billion to Poland. The withholding of EU financial support is seen as particularly egregious given that Poland is the EU’s most generous contributor of military aid to Ukraine as well as the EU nation hosting the largest number of Ukrainian refugees. For the Polish government, it's further evidence of the EU’s institutional corruption by malign German interests.

The war reparations claim is yet more proof of the historical resentment underpinning Poland's belief that although Moscow is the enemy, the EU – directed by Germany – also acts like a hostile power.

This report detailing the extent of crimes committed by the Nazis in Poland carries a political potency, even if it is unlikely to have practical consequences. Germany is being lined up as responsible for Poland’s suffering in the past and present.

Karl

[Jaga]

This idea of Germany paying reparations is crazy and it is part of the PIS campaign. The PIS tries to create an image of Germany as Polish enemy and the EU as a foreign entity to Polish culture.
I really don't know what else to say, but Polish opposition knows it, and they don't support it.

Thanks for posting the interview and indebt analysis. I simply did not know how to even approach this subject

[karl]

Sept 10, 2022 20:26:03 GMT -7 Jaga said:

This idea of Germany paying reparations is crazy and it is part of the PIS campaign. The PIS tries to create an image of Germany as Polish enemy and the EU as a foreign entity to Polish culture.
I really don't know what else to say, but Polish opposition knows it, and they don't support it.

Thanks for posting the interview and indebt analysis. I simply did not know how to even approach this subject

Jaga

Under the circumstances, you have done quite very well with your response, for with empathic understanding, myself could do no better nor as well. For with your reply, was to answer some unspoken questions of myself and that was how the Polish people feel about this issue and you filled in those blanks in my mind very well, thank you...

Karl