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Post by pieter on Oct 23, 2022 0:48:34 GMT -7
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Post by pieter on Oct 23, 2022 0:49:50 GMT -7
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Post by pieter on Oct 23, 2022 0:50:45 GMT -7
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Post by pieter on Oct 23, 2022 0:52:55 GMT -7
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Post by Jaga on Oct 23, 2022 23:48:43 GMT -7
yes, there seem to be many protests in Germany, some of the ones I saw are against inflation also
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Post by karl on Oct 24, 2022 9:19:49 GMT -7
Pieter
For as known, myself do not have sympathy for protest marches, for they usually degenerate into violence. But then, people do have the right of assembly for this is a Democratic State as should be. But then, what is to come of good of any kind to stage such protest in Germany? For this is an issue that is of the people of Iran and not in Germany.
Karl
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Post by Jaga on Oct 26, 2022 5:30:23 GMT -7
Karl, these were peaceful marches, but I can understand why you don't like public marches, the people in crowds can be swayed and manipulated too much
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Post by pieter on Oct 26, 2022 7:03:15 GMT -7
Dear Jaga and Karl,
My reaction comes as a Western neighbour of Germany. I live 18 mile from the German border and follow German media and press and talk with Germans in the Netherlands regularly. I don't want and can't speak for Karl, but let's show my Dutch historical and present perspective. The West-European situation is different than the USA, because our police forces, athorities and Federal agencies (FBI, CIA, DEA, NASA) are less strong than the American one. You don't mess with the American police or authorities. In Europe people don't carry guns, and the European police is a bit more reserved and aloof than the American police in my view.
I don't say that the one or the other is better. In the USA you have a different historical, geographic, social-cultural, financial-economic, ethnic, sociological and political situation and circumstances. Each continent and nations need their own approach. Fact is that for decades in Europe radical and extremist groups and domestic terrorism (Extreme left and far right), radical student movements, militant workers and farmers organisations were stronger present than in the USA. The USA had it's dominant bi-partisan system and European countries were more political divided in extreme left/far left groups/movements/parties, leftwing groups/movements/parties, center left groups/movements/parties, Centrist groups/movements/parties (the moderate middle), center right groups/movements/parties, rightwing groups/movements/parties and extreme right/far right groups/movements/parties. There are deep complicated historical layers, facts, pillars ( en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pillarisation#:~:text=Pillarisation%20(from%20the%20Dutch%3A%20verzuiling,pillars%20(Dutch%3A%20zuilen). ), social groups (milieu's) social classes and centuries old under layers, and regional and local idenities behind this in Europe.
Americans probably don't realise that until the late 19th century and early this century you had 'white slaves' in Europe in the form of exploited workers, child labourers and serfs ( en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serfdom ) in Czarist Russia and probably other parts of Europe. The extreme disbalance in wealth between on one side the extremely rich aristocracy (nobility), Monarchs, the Patrician merchant class and the clergy elite (of Prince Bishops, Carinals and bishops) and on the other side extremely poor workers and peasents divided Europe. I sometimes believe that in a new form this old aristocratic system could return, because again I see deep poverty and extreme richness in Europe (not only in the USA, Canada, Australia, South-Africa, India, China, Southern America and the Gulf Arab states).
West-Germany, the Netherlands, France, England, Belgium, Denmark, Italy and Spain had it share of violence during street demonstrations in the past decades. Violent 1 May demonstrations (the bloody Chaostage en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaos_Days ) in Berlin, Hamburg and Hannover), Turkish or Kurd demonstrations that resulted in violence with wounded people due to clashes with counterdemonstrators and the riot police. Islamist demonstrations that turned violent, Hooligan riots, Autonomen Antifa Anarchist far left demonstrations ( en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_bloc ), worker demonstrations, student demonstrations. Often such demonstrations turned violent with molotov cocktails thrown at the riot police, cars turned upside down and smashed and burnt out, damaged public property, streets and boulevards damaged and blocked.
Karl thinks from the perspective of the German authorities whom have to maintain public order, protect civilians, public property, private property of small shops and also banks, Hotels, restaurants, offices of firms, public transport and traffick. From that perspective I can understand Karl. To much and freedom of protest can block public life and harm local/regional and national financial, economical, tourist, public transport and local economy (Berlin city economy) interests.
From the other side I can understand Jaga and you are right people have the democratic right to demonstrate if they inform the authorities that they will organise the demo and coordinate it with the police and city authrotities and if the demonstration is organised and carried through in an orderly and disciplined manner. With this Iranian & Kurd demonstration in Berlin the demonstrators were at risk being filmed and monitored by Iranian security officers, personnel of the Iranian embassy, Iranian allies like Hezbollah supporters and even Russians whom -because they are supported by Iran in Ukraine- could help the Iranians in checking demonstrators -filming and photographing them and sharing their images and info with the Iranians and etc.-
There are always different sides to things and you always have to look at a subject like this with the perspective of Audi alteram partem (or audiatur et altera pars), "listen to the other side", or "let the other side be heard as well". The principle that no person should be judged without a fair hearing in which each party is given the opportunity to respond to the evidence against them. As a general principle of rationality in reaching conclusions in disputed matters, "Hear both sides" was treated as part of common wisdom by the ancient Greek dramatists. Personaly I am sympathetic to the cause of the Iranian, Kurd and German demonstrators whom demonstrated against a Theocratic and totalitarian/authoritarian regime\ which violates human rights and persecutes Iranian women and killed these 2 ladies in the last couple of months. There is the subjective opinion and next to that the objective or neutral opinion of the journalist whom tries to look at a situation from an objective 'News' (news value) point of view with his/her Audi alteram partem (or audiatur et altera pars), "listen to the other side", or "let the other side be heard as well" tools. The journalist will look at the demonstrators, the authorities, the different sides (also the Iranian government, the Supreme Leader of Iran, Grand Ayatollah Sayyid Ali Hosseini Khamenei, the president of Iran Ebrahim Raisi, the current foreign minister of Iran Hossein Amir-Abdollahian and Iranian diplomats in New York, Washington D.C., Geneva and Berlin) before he writes his article or essay, makes his video report or audio radio or blog report about the situation in Iran and the situation in Berlin. The jounralist will look at and try to make contact with the various parties in a conflict and will try to see different (Independent) sources. Even watching or listening to the official Iranian state press and media as well via translators or tuning into Press TV (stylised as PRESSTV), an Iranian state-owned news network that broadcasts in the English and French languages owned by Islamic Republic of Iran Broadcasting (IRIB), the only organization legally able to transmit radio and TV broadcasts in Iran. The 24-hour channel, which has headquarters in Tehran, was launched on 2 July 2007 and was intended to compete with western English language services.
( en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Press_ / www.presstv.ir/ )
Cheers,
Pieter
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Post by pieter on Oct 26, 2022 9:23:30 GMT -7
Folks,
Of course these Kurd, Iranian and German demonstrators in Berlin, because they were a huge mass and a social, political and cultural factor in Berlin and in Germany will have been monitored and followed, filmend and photographed and audio recorded also by German security officers, German personnel of the Verfassungsschutz, members of the Bundes Nachrichtendienst (BND), the Kriminalpolizei of the Landeskriminalamt Berlin, the Bundeskriminalamt (BKA) and the Bundespolizei (BPOL). You will always have that with large demonstrations. Scripts or scenario's will be written in advance for when the demonstration would have gone out of control like during earlier Kurd demonstrations when Kurd demonstrators clashed with Turkish nationalist counter demonstrators. Because there were a lot of Kurd flags, Kurdistan symbols in this anti-Iranian authorities demonstration it is logical that the German police thought about various risks. Clashes with Iran regime supporters, (Lebanese Arab Shia-Muslim, Pro Iranian) Hezbollah supporters or Anti-Kurd Turkish nationalists.
Pieter
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