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Post by Jaga on May 9, 2007 22:13:22 GMT -7
Here is the interesting story: Conservatives meet in Poland to stand against secular Europe NEW YORK - Many prominent U.S. conservative groups are shifting their attention overseas this week, organizing a conference in Poland that will decry Europe's liberal social policies and portray the host nation as a valiant holdout bucking those trends. The World Congress of Families is expected to draw more than 2,500 people from dozens of countries to Warsaw's Palace of Culture and Science from Friday through Sunday. The chief organizer is the Howard Center, a conservative think tank based in Rockford, Ill. Co-sponsors include more than 20 other U.S. groups allied in opposition to abortion, gay marriage and other policies they blame for weakening traditional families in Western Europe. "Europe is almost lost -- to demographic winter and to the secularists," says a planning document for the congress. "If Europe goes, much of the world will go with it. Almost alone, Poland has maintained strong faith and strong families." Polish President Lech Kaczynski, who will address the congress, heads a conservative government that has tangled frequently with European Union officials over such issues as gay rights and his nation's tough abortion laws. Allan Carlson, president of the Howard Center and founder of the World Congress of Families movement, acknowledges that social trends in Western Europe give conservatives little reason for optimism. Scheduled speakers at the congress include a Vatican representative, Monsignor Grzegorz Kaszak of the Pontifical Polish Institute of Rome, and Ellen Sauerbrey, assistant U.S. secretary of state for population, refugees and migration. www.startribune.com/722/story/1173861.html |
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Post by leslie on May 10, 2007 2:36:59 GMT -7
Jaga
I do not decry strong families in Poland but I do, vehemently, the other part of the equation. You said "Almost alone, Poland has maintained strong faith and strong families." What is the thinking behind the strong faith - I consider this to be a dictatorial maintenance. The Polish Catholic Church is seen almost everywhere in the world as an autocratic, dictatorial, self-declared leader of Polish people - the government - - who? I have had several personal experiences of this attitude, once almost being walked away from when the priest learned I was not of his faith, and even worse situations.
Perhaps my attitude is dominated by the fact that I live in, and in the atmosphere, of a much more benevolent Protestant country where the fact that I am not Protestant means nothing. As I result I am quite amenable to other faiths whatever their basis. The English have lost their 'strong faiths' probably because the different churches ceased being dictatorial and allowed people to live by a moral code that started with the church but ceased to be an enforced code.
Who have been over the years the strongest and most active opponents to attempt to take over - rightly or wrongly (usually the latter) - Poland?!!
And remember that a strong family is possible without any ""support""" by a church.
Leslie
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Post by justjohn on May 10, 2007 4:09:25 GMT -7
Jaga I do not decry strong families in Poland but I do, vehemently, the other part of the equation. You said " Almost alone, Poland has maintained strong faith and strong families." What is the thinking behind the strong faith - I consider this to be a dictatorial maintenance. The Polish Catholic Church is seen almost everywhere in the world as an autocratic, dictatorial, self-declared leader of Polish people - the government - - who? I have had several personal experiences of this attitude, once almost being walked away from when the priest learned I was not of his faith, and even worse situations. Perhaps my attitude is dominated by the fact that I live in, and in the atmosphere, of a much more benevolent Protestant country where the fact that I am not Protestant means nothing. As I result I am quite amenable to other faiths whatever their basis. The English have lost their 'strong faiths' probably because the different churches ceased being dictatorial and allowed people to live by a moral code that started with the church but ceased to be an enforced code. Who have been over the years the strongest and most active opponents to attempt to take over - rightly or wrongly (usually the latter) - Poland?!! And remember that a strong family is possible without any ""support""" by a church. Leslie |
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Post by Jaga on May 10, 2007 8:37:10 GMT -7
Leslie,
this is a fragment from the article, these are not my words! Strong faith means probably that Poles in majority go to Church, baptize children, take church weddings and funerals. I do not want to discuss whether Polish church is autocratic or not. The truth is that in the Western Europe almost nobody attends church anymore
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Post by kaima on May 10, 2007 9:00:46 GMT -7
Here we are in an America with a strong movement to become more 'Christian" and come under biblical laws, and we decry Iran for succeeding at much the same thing with their Koranic laws. If all these religious fanatics had their way I only see us regressing back to religious wars and killing poeple for having the wrong faith. I think all this nonsense is driving me more and more toward secularism and tell people to keep their beliefs without pressing them on others. It amazed me how many soldiers and airmen were "Christian" and willing to kill in the name of their beliefs - whereas Christ was not a soldier and killed no one, according to any records.
Ah, how we twist beliefs and justify murder of others! I do like separation of church and state, and do believe we should tax churches and church property as we tax everything else. We should not follow Europe and the Moslem world in subsidizing churches. They should be self supporting.
Kai
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Post by leslie on May 10, 2007 9:50:24 GMT -7
No one needs a bricks, stones, wood and mortar building (edifice?) to believe in God, to be religious, to worship good and detest evil. Some religions (and I won't say which) compete to have the most 'magnificent' edifice. God is with you, not in a building made by man.
Leslie
Incidentally, who for the past weeks(?) has the Polish Culture forum been like an empty box, and when there are postings, 90% are concerned with America?
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Post by bescheid on May 10, 2007 10:00:39 GMT -7
This would it so seems as a good thing, for at least a start in some direction that seems to have been lost ever so slightly in the passage of time and events. For as with the pleasures of peace with out war, for at least, for Europe, it is a well deserved rest.
The down side is of course what the meeting is about as a primary subject.
It is so very easy to slip into a life from extreme want, to that of abundance with out losing focus, for it is all so easy to fall into the trap of living in search of pleasure {sensate}. Then forget the importance of our church as the house of God. Then with out the weekly reminders of fellow ship with others in this same house for mutual strength we tend to drift away to our own devices. The strong will carry within their hearts, their beliefs, but, the weaker in intrinsic strength will tend to faultier.
For as persons, and as a society, we need and depend upon religious reference points to know what is good, and what is bad, for we may not have our world without this.
I think and I believe, this is a good thing, for truly, Poland is a leading example for Europe to follow up on, and as a reminder of how far we have strayed in comparison.
For in the end, we will all follow the same fate in loss of life at the end of this road. It is at the end, that is the question of who will be there to greet us.....
Charles
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jeanne
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Post by jeanne on May 11, 2007 18:19:26 GMT -7
Several years ago I realized that the reason I was fortunate enough to be raised in the Catholic faith was because my father's parents were born in Poland. After this realization that I owe my faith in part to Poland, I became very interested in Polish culture.
Not having studied the history of Poland in much detail, it amazed me to learn that Poland had disappeared from the map during the partitions, but had retained its strong culture during that time due in large part to its Catholicism.
It was my love of Polish Culture that led me to this website and this forum. The website is truly, as the homepage says, "a rich feast" of Polish culture and information. The forum has surprised me, though, in that most of the views expressed here are so secular. I'm not criticizing, people are most certainly entitled to their opinions, I'm just expressing surprise that it is so on a "Polish culture" site.
Poland today is seen by many as the last bastion in Europe of a Christian society, holding dear the values of family and faith amidst a Western Europe that is committing demographic suicide.
Secular beliefs, lifestyle, and the pleasure principle have led to more couples not marrying, or marrying and not having children, or having only one child. The Catholic intellectual and writer George Weigle points out that at the current rate of population growth (or lack thereof), by the year 2050, eighty percent of Italians will have no idea what it is like to have a brother, sister, cousin, aunt or uncle. This I find as a very sobering thought. Europe as we know it will cease to exist and will become a Moslem culture. Cultures lose their identity when they lose their defining religions and therein lies one of the problems with secularism.
Jeanne
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Post by bescheid on May 11, 2007 19:33:15 GMT -7
Jeanne
Although I am not Polish, I was very impressed with your points of view. You have a very healthy prospective of a very sensitive personal subject.
And yes on the couples choosing companionship with out virtue of marriage. I am Lutheran, but carry the intrinsic feelings of the sacred importance of marriage. And yes of course, each to their own, for it is to the individual of their preference and decision of choice.
In Germany this has been usually a choice for university students as an experience in learning and experimentation of learning to love. Then as they mature, they then part for other pursuits, and then not always, for I have known some that married after obtaining their graduation.
You have mentioned of the Islamic populations taking over Europe. To an extent, I see some disturbing events of Government officials attempting to passafie some of these groups. I would suspect they harbour the fear of becoming labeled racist by some of the loud mouths {fear of accompanied retaliation by some terror groups and this relates to the dependence of Arab oil and fear of a shut off}.
This type of situation has much previously come about with the Turkisch immigration problem some years in past. Then it was the Ukrainian and Russians creating their own individual communities to avoid integration into the German population.
It can become a problem if not attended to correctly. For it is requirement that all immigrants must as a requiremen learnt a working knowledge of German as a requirement. This in self, is a tool of integration as useful citizens and part of the economy.
More then likely, this will be only a mechanism of change with the demographic movement of Islamic peoples from the Mid. East countries. For there is a social equation that will come into effect if the Islamics begin to gain political power, this inturn will begin to place pressure in competitive intrusion into the Turkish minority status. And then there usually becomes a back lash of adjustment to come into play.
At the moment of present. The Jewish people are the favoured group in Germany, and as with Volkswagen, this is not to change. If perchance {and this can be easily turned into a very powerful presence} The Jewisch leadership become threatened by the Islamic presence, then it will be of little choice for Federal decision makers to make all assurances of make harmless any threat directed or perceived to be a threat to the Jewish population.
That is just the way it is in Germany. The Jews are not to be disturbed.
Charles
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george
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Post by george on May 13, 2007 6:51:34 GMT -7
" Poland today is seen by many as the last bastion in Europe of a Christian society, holding dear the values of family and faith amidst a Western Europe that is committing demographic suicide.
Secular beliefs, lifestyle, and the pleasure principle have led to more couples not marrying, or marrying and not having children, or having only one child. The Catholic intellectual and writer George Weigle points out that at the current rate of population growth (or lack thereof), by the year 2050, eighty percent of Italians will have no idea what it is like to have a brother, sister, cousin, aunt or uncle. This I find as a very sobering thought. Europe as we know it will cease to exist and will become a Moslem culture. Cultures lose their identity when they lose their defining religio" ns and therein lies one of the problems with secularism. "
Jeanne.....it might be pointed out that even in Christian Poland the birthrate is approx. 1.3. One of the lowest in Europe.
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Post by leslie on May 13, 2007 8:38:14 GMT -7
George
I want to disagree with you and I hope this does not produce the effect that the Jaga/Joan disagreement produced!! I think it is the first time I have disagreed with you.
I dislike strongly, the word abhor came first to my mind, of any argument for or against secularism or non-secularism. Poland, if the people want it, have every right to accept, nay want, a strong, dictatorial, autocratic form of Catholicism, just as they would have the right to want the opposite. I am against anyone - state or church telling everyone in what they should believe or how they should believe in it. I have a very strong religion that varies considerably from any of the major 'recognised' churches - and I feel I have every right to believe in this way (or not believe as was my stance for many many years).
I do believe that good moral values can be fostered by home, family and community without any dogma of church - but if people want to add that to the list, that is their right. Europe exists at the present time with almost the complete spectrum of views and Poland will be viewed with suspicion and non-cooperation if it insists that Europe accepts its views alone. But consider - are the people of Poland without fault in moral and social values? Are there not reports of an unfeeling attitude of motorists against each other out on the road; hooliganism at football matches; and the like - the very things Europe is being accused of because of its 'liberal' attitudes to people.
I believe that God created us and gave us the freedom of self development, - what we do with this freedom is up to us - who is any group who wishes to act as God and demand acceptance of their way only?
Sorry, George for using your posting as a means of spouting my views - at least we are two of the few who appear to be currently interested in using the forum.
Leslie
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Post by hollister on May 13, 2007 11:05:32 GMT -7
Leslie,
You know I respect you and your opinions - BUT
I find it ironic that you argue for the right to believe in what you feel is true - and for self development and end the post by complaining that people are not using the forum in the way you think it should be used.
If you think the tone of the current conversations are lacking substance - don't complain change it by keeping discussions going or beginning new ones to think about.
People's lives are complicated and we all have varying amounts of time to post and participate.
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Post by leslie on May 13, 2007 15:57:44 GMT -7
Chris = touche! But I am not the only one on the forum and as an Anglik I am looking towards people who know Poland intimately to lead me to a better understanding of Poles in Poland. Sorry, but not 'Poles' in America, nor Russians in Russia. I also look to British and American now resident in Poland as they look upon the country and the people without blinkered eyes. But where are they now?
Leslie
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jeanne
Cosmopolitan
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Post by jeanne on May 14, 2007 3:58:50 GMT -7
Jeanne Although I am not Polish, I was very impressed with your points of view. You have a very healthy prospective of a very sensitive personal subject. And yes on the couples choosing companionship with out virtue of marriage. I am Lutheran, but carry the intrinsic feelings of the sacred importance of marriage. And yes of course, each to their own, for it is to the individual of their preference and decision of choice. In Germany this has been usually a choice for university students as an experience in learning and experimentation of learning to love. Then as they mature, they then part for other pursuits, and then not always, for I have known some that married after obtaining their graduation. You have mentioned of the Islamic populations taking over Europe. To an extent, I see some disturbing events of Government officials attempting to passafie some of these groups. I would suspect they harbour the fear of becoming labeled racist by some of the loud mouths {fear of accompanied retaliation by some terror groups and this relates to the dependence of Arab oil and fear of a shut off}. This type of situation has much previously come about with the Turkisch immigration problem some years in past. Then it was the Ukrainian and Russians creating their own individual communities to avoid integration into the German population. It can become a problem if not attended to correctly. For it is requirement that all immigrants must as a requiremen learnt a working knowledge of German as a requirement. This in self, is a tool of integration as useful citizens and part of the economy. More then likely, this will be only a mechanism of change with the demographic movement of Islamic peoples from the Mid. East countries. For there is a social equation that will come into effect if the Islamics begin to gain political power, this inturn will begin to place pressure in competitive intrusion into the Turkish minority status. And then there usually becomes a back lash of adjustment to come into play. At the moment of present. The Jewish people are the favoured group in Germany, and as with Volkswagen, this is not to change. If perchance {and this can be easily turned into a very powerful presence} The Jewisch leadership become threatened by the Islamic presence, then it will be of little choice for Federal decision makers to make all assurances of make harmless any threat directed or perceived to be a threat to the Jewish population. That is just the way it is in Germany. The Jews are not to be disturbed. Charles Charles, I believe that takeover of the Muslim culture will occur very subtly as Europeans embrace secularism and cease to reproduce at a viable rate, and Muslims continue to practice their faith and continue to reproduce. I think the change in culture is inevitable. Jeanne |
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jeanne
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Post by jeanne on May 14, 2007 4:04:41 GMT -7
Jeanne.....it might be pointed out that even in Christian Poland the birthrate is approx. 1.3. One of the lowest in Europe. George, Yes, Poland is part of this on-going demographic suicide, but as a society which still has within it the values of faith and family, they are seen as the only hope of reversing this trend in Europe. I'm sure this is why the Conservatives have chosen to meet there. Jeanne |
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