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Post by hollister on Feb 9, 2006 10:59:01 GMT -7
Like nancy I have been following this discussion from the sidelines and have learned quite a bit - Thanks! However, this caught my eye and I have a question for you Charles ....[quote author=bescheid board=general thread=1139158610 post=1139507234 Speaking only for my self. On one side of the coin, I am American. This country has been good to me, and I have worked faithfully at my assigned work with honesty and diligently. I have enjoyed privileges not common to other people (American) in free university training and numerous specialized schools under FBI supervision and direction. In return, I was required to serve at their discretion. It was an equitable exchange.
On the other side of the coin, my employers have my files and records. All those could have been used for a legal form of black mail, and were not. I am of German blood and as such, my opinions and thought patterns are such. I know this, and try to temper my written thoughts to be compatible with both times and audience. For no matter my location, I am still a visitor and as such, this is to be expected. [/quote] :)Like nancy [quote author=bescheid board=general thread=1139158610 post=1139507234 Speaking only for my self. On one side of the coin, I am American. This country has been good to me, and I have worked faithfully at my assigned work with honesty and diligently. I have enjoyed privileges not common to other people (American) in free university training and numerous specialized schools under FBI supervision and direction. In return, I was required to serve at their discretion. It was an equitable exchange.
On the other side of the coin, my employers have my files and records. All those could have been used for a legal form of black mail, and were not. I am of German blood and as such, my opinions and thought patterns are such. I know this, and try to temper my written thoughts to be compatible with both times and audience. For no matter my location, I am still a visitor and as such, this is to be expected. [/quote]
You appear to identify yourself as "American" but seem to feel that America has not been the true "melting pot" the USA often envisions itself to be. So my question, Charles, is this why do you feel not truly accepted in America?
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Post by bescheid on Feb 9, 2006 15:47:28 GMT -7
Dear Hollie
I will try to answer your question as best I have to offer. It would appear I have laid out my cards with out an ace in reserve.
Well, I will only speak of my self and my experience, but only to the extent as to pertain to your question and here. Please do understand that....
America is a good and just country. It is rich and enduring to a full extent with very strong and good people. It is a vibrant country, with a strong sense of justice. Couple this with a very sound and strong government. I know, I have worked with it.
Now then, your question, yes. Melting pot. It is a melting pot to the extent of the manner of integration of people of many nationalities into the main stream of America, it works and it is good.
It is good until, yes, until they do not agree with you. Then the true colours come out, yes. First it is this: Oh, ya, your one of those. (Ok, now what is one of those) My father fought in Germany, ya, and he was in the liberation of the concentration camps, he fought you Nazi b---- and he said, in thirty years, we will fight you krauts again, yes. Well, that hurts, and yes, common words said in anger of SS and storm troopers or, krauts. I accept that as part and partial, it is equatable to the prior years.
Well, I am not stupid or brain numb, I admit, my language is not perfect, and I am far from perfect, but, I get the message. We are just fine, if we stay in our place, where ever that is.
It is as if, people are afraid of German people and that we are monsters in disguise.
As an American, yes, I will say that and work very hard to be a good American. If by chance, this were Canada, yes, I would be a good Canadian and work hard all the same. But, I know and feel that I am still German in a foreign land. If by chance, does this at all make sense to you?
Charles
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piwo
Citizen of the World
Co Słychać?
Posts: 1,189
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Post by piwo on Feb 9, 2006 20:03:34 GMT -7
Hmmmm. Charles, I'm wounded beyond words.
Not because I take umbrage at your comments, because It doesn't sit well with my view of this country. Well, in my community I can't imagine it, and that's really the only basis I can draw upon. My little 55 home "subdivision" has blacks, whites, Asians, Russians, (I'm told a Pole, but haven't met her), German, Irish, 3 Filipino's, and every American mutt (including myself) one could imagine.
That you feel 60 year old animosity is painful to me. This countries melting pot origin can never be up for debate, it just happens to be reality. Remember, melting POT means assimilation to the host culture, not Independence from it. It does not sound to me that you're in that position, so the sting of your experience is all the more painful. A good friend at a former job married a girl from Austria. Her dad was in the German Army during WWll: Waffen SS to be exact. He was captured 3 times during the war, and was overjoyed when the Americans captured him because he felt the war was finally over. Then the battle of the bulge caused him to be left behind in a pullout. My friends dad fought for America in the war, and was part of the Normandy invasion. He recalled a night when they all had dinner together, and the Austrian father in law also had friends from "the old country" over for dinner that night. The old friend began reminiscing, but the Austrian father in law stopped him cold, siting "selective memory". He remembered suffering, starvation, 5 years in a Russian Gulag and misery. He fought for Germany, assimilated with his former enemy, and was an honored member of his community. This is the America we aspire: but clearly it is not always so if you are still subject to the treatment you describe.
This country is all that you described, and more. Its the most selfish, yet the most generous. It openly embraces those who visit and assimilate, but scorns those that wish to maintain their national independence while enjoying her freedoms. Perhaps so many Americans are tired turning the other cheek while every country under the sun dumps and criticizes with immunity. Perhaps our unilateral tolerance has worn thin, and you are undeservedly suffering from it. Some call it "intolerance", but others see it as, "enough is enough". We're a strange breed to be certain, but hey, you all made us the way we are. We're the combined effect of every nation of the world. Europeans are quick to say we have no culture, but they must be looking in the mirror, because YOUR culture has helped make us who we are. Of course, it was those of your culture that chose to leave your home country, not stay. Call them brave, or call them cowards, or both.
I have been sent the same political cartoon several times in the last few weeks, which was excerpts from a speech by the other Roosevelt: Teddy. Most will not enjoy it, because it speaks to ONE America, not a hyphenated America. The black leadership of America thrives on the Hyphenated American culture: because conflict keeps them in prominence. Universally on this planet, differences divide, similarities and common ground unite. Those that wish to keep the hyphen wish to accentuate the differences for a reason, and in this country, it doesn't play well.
Perhaps I'll post it anyway..
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aadam
Junior Pole
Posts: 130
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Post by aadam on Feb 10, 2006 4:36:10 GMT -7
Aadam You do indeed have an excellent eye for detail. Thank you for detailing my various mistakes in spelling /.../ I am very disappointed by your answer. I am sorry but obviously I have mistaken you for somebody else, and imagined that your attitude towards difficult Polish-German history is more pertaining to the mainstream. What is more I find too much allusions, too much stirring up the muddy waters in you words. I also regret to see some traces of adpersonals, and thats the last thing I'd have time to spare for. I must say openly - for the sake of other readers - that under my skin I from time to time feel some false, or - better - falsehood, in your wirtings here. I hope my impression is wrong and you are here with no agenda, "Charles". P.S. Everytime you have problems with your spell-checker concerning the spelling of an adjective 'Polish', please take a look the name of the forum
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Post by bescheid on Feb 10, 2006 5:40:25 GMT -7
Piwo
Thank you for your well written post return, it was good of you to speak your mind, I do appreciate it...what you have brought forth, is true and actual. I think perhaps it is just my personal faults that are the root of the problem.
Actually, I wish I had not even participated on this subject, and intended to remove most of it as self serving and childish. But, you were much faster then my self. But, what is done is over.
Charles
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Post by bescheid on Feb 10, 2006 6:05:00 GMT -7
aadam
Thank you for your post reply. You have spoken your mind, that is important. It portrays your thoughts of the subject matter. As I had made mention earlier to Piwo, my entention this morning, was to remove my post as unsuitable and lacking. But, as events have evolved, you guys were ahead of me. And so, here we are.
I am sorry you feel the way you do about my writings, but, it is ok. The subject matter was not a good topic for my post to enter. I spoke my mind as accurately as my memory served me. And with this in mind, also with the risk of confrontation of those finding my post offensive. I will not apologize to you for this, as it was what I know.
In the matter of a personal agenda that you have brought forward as a veiled accusation. This is defiantly not the case, and far from it. In as far as false hoods in my manner, I am not sure your meaning in that respect, but, I will accept this as your feelings as you have spoken.
In as much to my spelling, I do not need you to tell me how to do my spelling. You may tell the children this, but, you do not tell this to me, ok?
Charles
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Post by hollister on Feb 10, 2006 7:02:14 GMT -7
I didn't mean to highjack this discussion! That was not my intent. Maybe I should repost this under a new topic but for me it brings up something I have been thinking about and want to get more input.
Piwo (and eveyone else), I understand your response and please do not take this as confrontational - but if you feel the US is "This country is all that you described, and more. Its the most selfish, yet the most generous. It openly embraces those who visit and assimilate, but scorns those that wish to maintain their national independence while enjoying her freedom" why are you here on a Polish Culture forum? I hope I can clarify my intention - If America has become a culture that assimilates all other cultures into something new and adequate to replace the orginal culture of our parents or origin - why do so many Americans feel the urge to explore that "parent" culture to discover who we truly are and help answer the question why I see the world differently than other Americans? It is this process that I find so interesting. The process or moment that one begins to feel more "American" and define themselves as such. Why is geneology so popular - what question does it answer for us as a people? Why do we need to know more about where we come from other than I am an American? Does that make sense. Like I said I in now way mean this as a criticism or confrontational I am just interested in how others see this process.
The reason I wonder about this (and Charles I hope you are listening to this) is my family/church. The lore is that we came to the United States as three basic family groups as German immigrants and founded a church in Washington. However, when you begin to disentagle the story you find that one branch was actually from what today is France! At the time is was *probably* Austria but it depends on where the line was drawn. (The family Bible is written in BOTH French and German) Another branch were "Volga Russians" but in looking at this branch I find that they were actually from the Lubin area (yes, I know there are border issues) the families merged during a short sojurn in Holland and then onto North Dakota and then Washington. Why out of all of that does this group choose (and I think it is an intentional decision) to identify themselves as German? Not French, Austrian, Russian, Polish or Dutch but German? Especially since they maintained that identification through WWII? Even today if you ask some of the older members of the Church they will tell tell you with no ifs, ands or buts that they are German Mennonites who came to the United States and now they are American and that is that!
An companion question then may be - Do we research our roots to confirm our world view or to enrich it?
As I said I am interested in what anyone has to say.
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Post by bescheid on Feb 10, 2006 10:34:56 GMT -7
Dear Hollie Please do not become discouraged with the discussions trade between our selves. aadom is disappointed with me in some of my presented content, it is ok, I bring to blame what so ever on him for his honest discussion. Please do not be harsh with Piwo, he added an honest appraisal of the currant and present times, actually very accurately in my opinion. My story is similar to a million others. With exception of my 1945 ship board experience on board a Soviet Russian ice breaker, perhaps next time as time mellows us. But, your question of German Mennonites. What you heard actually most likely very very true. Now this is from memory, I am not sure if this will help, what little I have to offer, but a little I would suppose, is more then yesterday. The German Mennonites and East Prussians, were, are, incredible farmers. I am not kidding, I tend to believe, they could make a flower grow out of a rock, and then, make it blume....They are hard working people, generous and thrifty. They are a good and honest people. Long before the war, many Mennonites were invited out of Germany, to Russia, by the Russian government, to make a new life. The intent was this, it was hoped the Mennonites would pass onto the Russian agriculture people, their (Mennonites) secrets of crop yield and gradually assimilate into the main stream Russian farm communities. This is not what happened, primarily because, German Mennonites do not mix well with out siders. They tend to create their own communities and that is their way. Not always 100%, but primarily so. With the war, the Stalinist government, fearing German spies, deported many of these families to the out side areas of Kazakhstan and similar. After the war, many of these people tried and did, return to Western Europe. Most likely, it would not have gone well for them to admit their prior residence as being Communist Russia or similar. But, no matter the location of residence, they will as most German people will, say always, they are German. There are today, many Mennonite, some Prussian families in the BC area of Castlegar (British Columbia Canada). Also, and actually more so, a large contingent of doukhobor colonies. This is primarily Ukrainian families. Hollie, I am not sure if this brought to you any new information, or confusion, I do trust, it will help. Feel not as if you are high jacking this thread, you are not, that is my personal opinion, I will stand by. You have a need to learn your roots, and by all means do so today, while those records and living witnesses still exist. For tomorrow may be too late. This is very generalized as I opologize for lack of research url to offer, more or less from memory of past studies and expereince. www.daveneta.com/no-random-act/mennonites.htmJust located the above url.You may already have this, but, in the case not, I trust if will help. Charles
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aadam
Junior Pole
Posts: 130
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Post by aadam on Feb 10, 2006 12:36:38 GMT -7
Dear Hollie Please do not become discouraged with the discussions trade between our selves. aadom is disappointed with me in some of my presented content, it is ok, I bring to blame what so ever on him for his honest discussion. Yes Charles, I am disappointed. I have been taught that a misspelling of nationality, name, surname etc. is very unproper if not rude and I will and do, as you have said, teach so my children and co-workers. My mistake was that I have (uselessly) tried to inform you - in a more-or-less light manner - about my feelings - I shouldn't have cared instead - we are on the web only. And my main point of disappointment is that under the subject of post-war events that led to the death of so many millions innocent peaople from German habd, you are reffering to scandalous 'Prussian holocaust' etc. I am sure you know perfectly what I mean, as I have found you as an intelligent and very smart person. I am disappointed by lack of suitable reaction of moderators , too. I understand that it is an American server hosted group, not the European one, and moderated by (Polish) Americans. Perhaps thus such kind of is even more understandable, but the more sad it is. Well, that's the way the world goes round, have to get used to it. I must however apologise to you personally for redundant questioning you idenity, as I at first thought that it must be a provocator to write something like that. After some thought I come to the conclusion thta you are who you are and it is no business of mine to question it.
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Post by hollister on Feb 10, 2006 12:37:18 GMT -7
Please do not be harsh with Piwo, he added an honest appraisal of the currant and present times *confused* I don't think I was harsh on Piwo, in fact I took pains to try to make that clear
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Post by hollister on Feb 10, 2006 12:57:23 GMT -7
Oops I meant to make some comments I have snipped some of Charles's comments to add my own... The German Mennonites and East Prussians, were, are, incredible farmers. I am not kidding, I tend to believe, they could make a flower grow out of a rock, and then, make it blume....They are hard working people, generous and thrifty. They are a good and honest people. I will with the good farmer bit! Long before the war, many Mennonites were invited out of Germany But that is NOT what happened in this case - these people came from Austria or France NOT Germany This is not what happened, primarily because, German Mennonites do not mix well with out siders. They tend to create their own communities Again I will agree with this = from personal experience There are today, many Mennonite, some Prussian families in the BC area of Castlegar (British Columbia Canada). Also, and actually more so, a large contingent of doukhobor colonies. This is primarily Ukrainian families. Ah, the Doukhobors! You don't want to upset this group - especially if you are a government - they are likely to lob a firebomb at official buildings and when hauled into court often strip to protest the proceedings (especially the older women) But you didn't really address my question... when and how do a people begin to identify with their new country and stop identifying with the old. And why do so many Americans feel a need to research their roots? Is it because they find something lacking in American culture? Is there such a thing as an "American" culture?
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Post by bescheid on Feb 10, 2006 13:10:56 GMT -7
aadam
I find no fault in you. We have just come across a cross road of bumps and jars is all. you are a fine person and a misunderstanding is all that has occurred. Nothing more or less.
In the occasion, that the moderators should find fault with me, it is ok, I will take what ever is given to me and go on.
Yes, it is an American web site, and as such, although privately owned, with public access. If a member should deem so with a complaint, then with due honesty, it needs to be answered. If the operators of such private web site deem so, then the offender may be blocked and asked to leave.
As an American web site, it is under the responsibility of the FCC. And as such, the deeming agency to issue the appropriate licensing.
I was not aware until now of your finding offense of my misspellings of your country. But then, what of my self? Am I to be the recipient of your criticism?
As you see, it is a two way roadway.
You do have a step up above my self. This is a Polish Web forum, I am not Polish, but a foreigner to you and the forum. So, if I am to continue here, what is to be next? I would only surmise, you have placed a suitable compliant against me, yes? And if so, with the moderators responsible, yes?
well, I am only suspecting so as of your actions. My ethics and personal would not expect quarter nor clemency. I will stand by my post as spoken. And as such, what I write, I will stand the responsibility of, with my signature at the end.
I am afraid for you in this manner, you have just come head to head with one of those darn Germans, and he will win, make no mistake.
On the other hand aadam, I liked you at the start, and I still like you. I am sorry, but, once you have made a friend with a north German, you are stuck with it. You will always be my friend so live with it and shut up..
Charles
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aadam
Junior Pole
Posts: 130
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Post by aadam on Feb 10, 2006 13:32:39 GMT -7
The weird paert of the story is that I still like you too. However I am afraid that I cannot participate in discussions where "Prussian holocaust" exists as a rightful 'member of community' in a discussion pertaining to the WWII. It is no job of mine to exclude such statements from here. That' s all. Now you know where is the baseline of peace-loving Pole. As to my having a step over you - I have a feeling that you are mistaken - it is 'Polish Culture Forum' of the Americans. You're American (like it or no, Charles) Finally -you rightly worry about me as to my coming head to head with one of those darn Germans I am a typical Pole, and I am sure that one thing we are famous about is having no will to fight with the Germans, Charles. Isn't it?
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Post by bescheid on Feb 10, 2006 13:36:04 GMT -7
Dear Hollie
I am not able to answer your question, nor would any other person. The question is in your heart. This is what you must satisfy, for no other may have that power to do so.
It matters not if or not, a person begins to identify with their new country or when or how, to separate from their former country. This is just a matter of time and what you want or desire to do. Your decision is what is important, no other person has the right to interfere with what your heart tells you.
As an example of your power, and it is entirely your power.
Take a step, who cares where, and stop with both feet planted firmly. Now, turn slowly in any direction you choose, a full 360 degrees, then stop at your entail start point. What you have just seen, is your entire universe, this is your world as you know it. No one else owns that world, it is yours. The ground you stand on, is yours, until you give it up by moving.
The above is not meant as a demeanor of your intelligence. It is a manner of reinforcing your sub science in believing in your self.
The other factor that is self, is this: You are the most important person in this world, yes! You are!! Because, with this responsibility, you are able to have the emotional reserves available to give love to your loved ones, create a place for your self in this world, so as better to create for your family. It is your strength that matters, for with this strength, you are able to give strength to those in need.
Sense, does this make any sense to you?
Charles
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Post by bescheid on Feb 10, 2006 13:45:30 GMT -7
aadam
Haa, you are a dear heart!! Let us place behind us this hideous subject of what ever we were discussing. And move on with our world.
You are very correct. In spite of my objections and stubbornness, I must admit, I am an American now. And as such, live with it....
Charles
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