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Post by Jaga on Sept 7, 2007 6:43:35 GMT -7
Does America choose its own enemy a priori? It almost looks like. There are strong forces (Bolton, Liebermann) in American government who want us to attack Iran. I do not know whether Bush would finally bend to the pressure or not. Iran is at least 3 times bigger than Iraq. Nobody (except Israel) will support invasion or attack on Iran, so why? Just because Israel wants us to attack and it is too scared to do it on its own? The US tries to build record which support that Iran is messing up in Iraq so that it would have the excuse. It does it with a very mixed results. It was unable to prove anything until now. The truth is that over 50% of Al Queda fighters in Iraq came from Saudi Arabia but.... there is no any pressure to attack Saudi Arabia, why? Is it because the US chose which countries are "good" and which are "bad" in advance? Kaie Couric was in Syria today. The president of Syria invited her to his residence. He immediately negated that Syria helps terrorists. Yesterday Israeli planes crossed Syrian air space. They dropped ammunition" over the desert. A year ago Israel invaded Lebanon. So, who is the enemy? Syria Why? One God knows
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Post by Jaga on Sept 9, 2007 12:58:13 GMT -7
I know that we do not want to discuss political subjects. I did post this message in a political board and I received interesting answers. I have to share at least one with you.... which shocked me! My opponent said: Yes, it is OK for democracies to invade non-democracies, in order to install democracy. It is OK even if it is to simply replace one non-democratic government with another, IF the non-democracy has provided a legitimate Cause for War.Jaga: You are saying that it is OK for democracies to invade non-democracies. That means that "good guys" (democracries) invade "bad guys" (non-democracies) and it is OK? I always thought that it is just opposite and only bad guys invade good guys !?!! This is really strange statement. YOU ARE SAYING THAT BEING A DEMOCRACY JUSTIFIES THE INVASION! Democracy should not invade anybody without being invaded in the first place! I am simply speechless....The US had legitimate justification to invade Iraq. Iraq had tried to assasinate a former US president, and was firing on US planes on a weekly basis as they enforced a no-fly zone Iraq had agreed to. (The WMD deal was not legitimate justification). I would go a step further....we need no reason at all to attack a non-democracy
The fact that they are inherently oppressive is all the excuse we need. Non-democratic governments have no right to exist..This is a complete absurd. You are equal with Bin Laden. Bin Laden stated that all people should convert to Islam and all states should convert to Islam also. in Your case the word "ISLAM" is just replaced by word "DEMOCRACY"
Don't you feel that you are the same fundamentalism with your promotion of "democracy" like Islamists feel with spreading their religion?
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Post by Jaga on Sept 9, 2007 13:01:31 GMT -7
Do you think guys that so called democracies can attack non-democracies just to spread their message?
here is my response:
Spreading democracy by force because...." it is better than any other system therefore it should be only allowed system in the world" is the same as:
SOVIETIZATION - according to Soviet communistic ideology communism was the best therefore every country should be communistic. So, invasion of other country in the name of converting the country to communism is just a good deed.
ISLAMIZATION - Bin Laden also wants all of us to convert to Islam since Islam is the best system in the world
So, now it seems that we do not only have these who want to spread ISLAM around the worlds, or spread Christianity everywhere but also people who thinks that so called "democracy" needs to be spread by force. New foundamentalists were just created!
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Post by bescheid on Sept 9, 2007 16:21:04 GMT -7
Jaga
You have brought forward a very varied and vastly complex subject. Also of a possible sensitive nature to other members of American nationality on this forum. For some have kin people fighting in Iraq.
What I will forward though is this: The most dangerous military Nation in the middle East and for that matter, the Western World, is the United States. For at the moment, the number of invasions in non-declaration of war, are as follows: Kuwait/Afghanistan/ and Iraq.
Of course the reasons are a multitude and I offer no argument as to justifications, but the acts alone are self evident.
Kuwait was caught by Husein cross drilling into Iraq oil fields using an excuse of non-payment of owed national debts to the Kuwait Royal Family. They paid the price of aggressive non-negotiation with the Iraqi military invasion. The Kuwait Royal Family cried foul to the Americans, and the history of that out come is well known.
Afghanistan was next on the invasion list, and as so was completed with military precision, and is currently still occupied.
Iraq was becoming very aggressively frightening to neighbouring Arab nations {non are Democratic governments}, and as the situations become more aggressive. The Arab delegations turned to the Americans for help {to use as a club} with the indications of oil export was a possibility of short fall if the Iraqi government was to become aggressive and invasion of Arabian neighbouring nations were to become a threatening possibility.
And the remainder is well known history.
At the moment, the two mid. Eastern nations with the power to assist the Americans in the extraction of their military out of Iraq, are instead being treated as enemies by US foreign policy.
These nations are very well known as: Syria and Iran. In city of Damascus {Syria}there is an unmarked building of the Syrian Department of:{ Military Intelligence} it is the {Shu'bat al-Mukhabarat al-Askariyya} it reports only directly to {Syrian President Bashar al-Asad} amongst the many responsibilities that is controlled through this office, it manages the various extremist groups of {Palestinian/Lebanese and Turkisch groups}.
This is the power the Americans need most at this time. But, in this stead , Syria is treated with contempt and placed on the list of embargoed nations, almost it would so seem, as to please the Israelies.
As with common practice of American Foreign Policy. Who knows what changes will arrive in reality after the new Presidency is completed.
Democracy is only a word untill it is placed in practice. Freedom is a reality. For we are all free. But, there is a difference in the nature of freedom. For we may be free from, or, we may have the freedom to. As long as people have a choice, for that is the actual freedom.
Charles
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Post by sciwriter on Sept 10, 2007 10:09:54 GMT -7
IMO economics is the main cause of these wars. Today with USA vs. Iraq it's control of oil supplies to China. Afghan oil pipeline is related. In 1954-62, France fought Algerian rebels to main its source of uranium:
Carl
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Post by Jaga on Sept 10, 2007 11:34:34 GMT -7
Jaga Afghanistan was next on the invasion list, and as so was completed with military precision, and is currently still occupied. Iraq was becoming very aggressively frightening to neighbouring Arab nations {non are Democratic governments}, and as the situations become more aggressive. The Arab delegations turned to the Americans for help {to use as a club} with the indications of oil export was a possibility of short fall if the Iraqi government was to become aggressive and invasion of Arabian neighbouring nations were to become a threatening possibility. Hello Charles, I agree almost with everything you said except the Iraq part. I think Arab countries might ask the US to intervene when Iraq attacked Kuweit, but nothing like that happened 5 years ago since Saddam was not really developing any new weapons. Iraq was pretty much confined by the non flying zones etc.
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Post by kaima on Sept 10, 2007 12:35:53 GMT -7
Another part of the equation that was never considered is that Iraq never had a delivery system that could threaten the US. We destabilized the region for no good reason.
Kai
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Post by bescheid on Sept 10, 2007 15:49:07 GMT -7
For not to risk of beleaguer of this topic, but to only add for additional information. In as-much to common knowledge at present of the Iraq war. It should be also to understand the Arab mind set. For the Arab mind set is very conservative. As members of {The League of Arab States} each member bears a responsibility of maintaining a strong relationship to the other as a duty. For one member to independently create a decision that would be contrary to the wishes of the remainder, would in-self be a affront to the entire membership. In this relationship, for a member for as of {Saudi Arabia} to make concessions to the United States directly would be an affront to the entirety of the remaining membership. As so, for in the stead, the invitation to US forces intervention into Iraq, would instead be forwarded as {possible use of Bases} By Saudi Arabia as a representative of {The League of Arab States}. english.peopledaily.com.cn/200209/16/eng20020916_103291.shtmlThe Arab Families have much to fear in a destabilization of the Middle East, for they have at stake,their individual family kingdoms and personal wealth. The following url is the web of {League of Arab States} for more complete description. www.arabji.com/ArabGovt/ArabLeague.htmThe following is of an American web site. All I would ask, is read with an open mind, forget for the time, any American mind set and read with understanding. Then form your own mind of what you choose to believe. My reason of presenting instead, that of an American web site, would inself remove any automatic rejection of an Israeli site as biased and contaminated. www.international.ucla.edu/article.asp?parentid=32236Charles
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Post by sciwriter on Sept 11, 2007 10:23:23 GMT -7
USA presence in Iraq increases dependence of Saudi Arabia on USA. Carl
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Post by Jaga on Sept 16, 2007 22:38:23 GMT -7
Charles, thank you very much for all the interesting links. You know probably much more about Arab mind than I do thanks to you work and travel so you are a greta source! By the way, today I read something which shocked me. I was wrong stating that only Israel will support America in Iran, France is also ready! read it here: uk.reuters.com/article/wtMostRead/idUKL1668048120070916France says must prepare for possible war with Iran no comment...
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Post by sciwriter on Sept 20, 2007 8:49:45 GMT -7
Will USA conduct war with Iran to control oil and test a new weapon which uses radio signals to destabilize deuterium (H2) in heavy water and thereby puts Iran's nuclear reactor out of control.
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Post by bescheid on Sept 20, 2007 10:01:09 GMT -7
Will USA conduct war with Iran to control oil and test a new weapon which uses radio signals to destabilize deuterium (H2) in heavy water and thereby puts Iran's nuclear reactor out of control. Dear Karl For why under the sun of this earth, would you Americans even contemplate, to extend their presently over extended military with a very apparent suicidal expeditionary military force into a proposed invasion of Iran? For at present, your Mr. Bush is fully committed to a fault, into two wars at present. And now, an another invasion of a sovereign nation??? For what madness are you people made of? ?? In as much to {heavy water} are you referring to {Isotope deuterium}? Charles
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Post by justjohn on Oct 4, 2007 5:49:51 GMT -7
Will USA conduct war with Iran to control oil and test a new weapon which uses radio signals to destabilize deuterium (H2) in heavy water and thereby puts Iran's nuclear reactor out of control. Dear Karl For why under the sun of this earth, would you Americans even contemplate, to extend their presently over extended military with a very apparent suicidal expeditionary military force into a proposed invasion of Iran? For at present, your Mr. Bush is fully committed to a fault, into two wars at present. And now, an another invasion of a sovereign nation??? For what madness are you people made of? ?? In as much to {heavy water} are you referring to {Isotope deuterium}? Charles DEBKAfile reports: Russians employed at Iran’s Bushehr nuclear reactor suddenly depart in a body, according to local Arab sources
October 1, 2007, 11:32 AM (GMT+02:00) The Khorramshar News Agency, which is published by the ethnic Arab underground of Iran’s oil-rich Khuzestan, reported early Oct. 1 that the entire staff of Russian nuclear engineers and experts employed in building the nuclear reactor at Bushehr had abruptly packed their bags Friday, Sept. 28, and flew back to Russia. The agency’s one-liner offers no source or explanation. DEBKAfile have obtained no corroboration of its report from any other source. The story appears to have originated with the ethnic Arabs who live near the reactor or who come in contact with its Russian staff. If true, DEBKAfile can offer three hypothetical scenarios to account for the Russians’ precipitate departure: 1. Another crisis has cropped up in the patchy Russian-Iranian dealings over the Bushehr reactor. This is unlikely because Russian president Vladimar Putin is due for a high-profile visit to Tehran on Oct. 16, when he plans to sign a series of nuclear accords with the Islamic Republic. Furthermore, Moscow, like Beijing, stands foursquare behind Iran’s efforts to delay harsher sanctions for its continued uranium enrichment. Only this week, the two powers gained Iran two to three months’ grace by forcing a delay in the UN Security Council session that was to have approved a third round of sanctions. 2. Moscow or Tehran has been tipped off that a US or Israeli attack is imminent on the Bushehr plant and Iran’s other nuclear installations and acted to whip Russian personnel out of harm’s way. 3. Moscow has learned that an Iranian pre-emptive attack is imminent against American targets in Iraq and the Persian Gulf and/or Israel. Aside from these hypothetical scenarios, DEBKAfile’s Iranian sources report that the Khorramshar News Agency keeps its ear to the ground on happenings in Bushehr, because it is claimed by Khuzistan separatists as Arab land which they will fight to liberate from Iranian “occupation.” 'Praise the Lord and pass the amunition.'
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Post by justjohn on Oct 4, 2007 6:00:33 GMT -7
From: The New Yorker Annals of National Security Shifting Targets The Administration’s plan for Iran. by Seymour M. Hersh October 8, 2007 In a series of public statements in recent months, President Bush and members of his Administration have redefined the war in Iraq, to an increasing degree, as a strategic battle between the United States and Iran. “Shia extremists, backed by Iran, are training Iraqis to carry out attacks on our forces and the Iraqi people,” Bush told the national convention of the American Legion in August. “The attacks on our bases and our troops by Iranian-supplied munitions have increased. . . . The Iranian regime must halt these actions. And, until it does, I will take actions necessary to protect our troops.” He then concluded, to applause, “I have authorized our military commanders in Iraq to confront Tehran’s murderous activities.” More here: www.newyorker.com/reporting/2007/10/08/071008fa_fact_hersh
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Post by bescheid on Oct 4, 2007 12:21:59 GMT -7
J.J. Interesting, is it not, the various divergent pathways of our world! With the rattling of swords from that of so many hands, one is at question as to which direction to run.... There are so to speak, many camps of thought in the Middle East. Some would suppose it is a battle of power and prestige between the out side superpowers as to which is to be the controlling power. But of course, the natural holders of power should be those who reside in those contested countries. But, our world is not natural and we must work with what we have. For at the end of day, we collect that of our wages. Very recently as commonly known. Mr Putin by order, assigned his air-force into practice manoeuve with a flight of the old, but very good Tu-95 long range bomber reconnaissance aircraft as a dusting off the coast of Alaska. This was in-advance, made notice to the American Government, so as not to shake up the ground overly too much. Also not to create an embarrassment in the case of interception flights out of Canada were late {The Canadians and Americans have an exchange interception flights at readiness with a Canadian contingent kept at the Tacoma for deployment and a American contingent kept at the Abbottsford Airbase for intercept of this sort}. en.rian.ru/russia/20070920/80150569.htmlFor as not just a sword rattle contest for noise, but for a point to be made in regards to the American sword rattling pointed in the direction of Iran. The Washington DC fellows are creating as best as possible, a smoke screen to cover up the coming loss of Iraq through the election process in change out of presidents. As to further the smoke screen process, the finger pointing is now at Iran to be the bad guys. Because they do not do what they are told to do, and that is not create competition to Israel with equal standing in the holder of Nuclear technology. It is a child game they are playing with the lives of many people with this fools game. Charles
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