Pawian
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Post by Pawian on Aug 26, 2007 2:45:26 GMT -7
I have to say that I agree with Charles! I often do not understand the overemotional or sentimental Polish mind or soul, that may be my Dutch half or my Dutch uprbinging? I don't know! So, what do you propose? You must specify because due to Charles`s equivocal post I don`t know what you really agree to.
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Pawian
European
Have you seen my frog?
Posts: 3,266
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Post by Pawian on Aug 26, 2007 2:57:16 GMT -7
I have a better idea. How about if Poland returns German cultural property to Germany left behind from the post war land exchange, and Germany returns ALL of the Polish cultural items Germany stole like a common thief during the war. Sounds a lot more fair to me. If, after my previous post, you still consider it fair, look at unique colour photos of Gdańsk 1946 AD after the war and before the reconstruction. More here sabaoth.infoserve.pl/danzig-online/color/1946.htmlAnd now look at effects of the rebuilding: Gdańsk Olsztyn Wrocław Szczecin How are you going to calculate exchange rates now? hahahahaha
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Post by pieter on Aug 26, 2007 4:28:40 GMT -7
I have to say that I agree with Charles! I often do not understand the overemotional or sentimental Polish mind or soul, that may be my Dutch half or my Dutch uprbinging? I don't know! So, what do you propose? You must specify because due to Charles`s equivocal post I don`t know what you really agree to. Pawian, I just want to let you know that I read this reaction of yours, and that I have to think about my reaction, because today (like yesterday) I have to go to help friends with their preparations for their (Dutch) wedding party. (a huge party on monday evening) I hope that I am able to react tonight. Nice photographs of Gdansk, both the old and new. My first study was for history teacher, so I always love historical subjects! I have to go now. Have a good day. Pieter
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Post by pieter on Aug 26, 2007 13:23:46 GMT -7
I have to say that I agree with Charles! I often do not understand the overemotional or sentimental Polish mind or soul, that may be my Dutch half or my Dutch uprbinging? I don't know! So, what do you propose? You must specify because due to Charles`s equivocal post I don`t know what you really agree to. Pawian, do you mean ambivallent with equivocal or dubious? I agree with Charles that pieces of art, music or literature are universal and ment for mankind, not only for one nation! I understand the national sentiments of the Poles, Germans and Russians, but don't think that you have to indulge to that demands. Evry country has historical objects and art that comes from looting during wars of the past. It will be very complicated and unwise if we would start to return all object to it's original countries, because collections will be devided or deminished, and some objects will go to countries where there are less good conditions for the objects to be preserved and kept for the future generations. For me it is important to accept the present situation from a pragmatic point of view. I agree with Charles that Poland can keep the German cultural property and that Poles, German tourists and people of other nationalities can enjoy these works of art in Polish museums. Like people can also enjoy the old Dutch and Flemish masters in the museums of Warsaw and Krakow, and the Italian renaissance painters Leonardo Da Vinci and Baciarelli. With the overemotional or sentimental Polish mind or soul I mean the exaggerated glorification of the past in an irrational romantic souce, will the reality was less fantastic. For instant the Czestochowa cult, nostalgia, and the national catholic church. Pieter
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Post by bescheid on Aug 26, 2007 14:04:30 GMT -7
Pawian
Why are you so difficult with Pieter? For he was only agreeing with me in respect to the protection of art, for art is universal for all people.
With your city of Gdansk, it is now a very new and beautiful city,and as well should be, for it was rebuilt.
I feel your resentment to me for my nationality, and I do accept that. For it was my kinfolk and military that destroyed your country. For this, I will offer no apology, for it was a war that no longer exist.
We are as we are, you are as your are, and, I am what I am, a German. For this is our reality. For if you do not, or may not accept this as currant, then I may not be of help to you.
But, please do not take this out on other people.
Charles
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Pawian
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Post by Pawian on Aug 26, 2007 14:50:21 GMT -7
So, what do you propose? You must specify because due to Charles`s equivocal post I don`t know what you really agree to. Pawian, do you mean ambivallent with equivocal or dubious? I meant ambiguous. I just didn`t know what you thought of when you declared your agreement with Charles. It seems that Charles reads my posts inattentively. He said that he disagreed with me and later elaborated on terms of exchange which I was ready to support. That was so ambiguous I didn`t know what to think about it. Look at the chronology of events: My original post As for giving anything back, I could support it on condition that the losses of Polish culture are covered by Germans. Germans must make up for what they stole, plundered, burnt and destroyed in Poland during WW2. Why not? I don`t need German composers` manuscripts, their place is in Berlin, not Krakow. I want back the picture by Rafael, stolen from Krakow`s museum by Hans Frank in 1945. If it is impossible to recover the picture, it can be another of the same value.Charles` answer I am sorry, but I do not agree with Pawian. I understand his feelings and I do respect those feelings in kindAnd later: It is in the matter of exchange that is the logical approach. The holder of value {Poland} need only to provide to the wisher {Germany} of exact content of value currently held as ransom {this has been accomplished}. Then terms of exchange may only be determined once the holder of this value {Poland} will provide the wisher {Germany}, what it wants in exchange. Once both parties have come to an agreement of equal value in exchange, then both parties may complete the exchange at the prior-agreed upon location.So, Charles disagress in one place and seems to agree in another? Or there is some deeper meaning in his words which I am blind to? I was trying to find out.... OK, German cultural heritage may stay in Poland. Now, according to your views, you should start critisizing German press which violently demands the return of their goods from Poland, wisely keeping silent about goods kept in Russia and other countries........ OK, I don`t mind, if you think so and Charles, too, there is no need for further discussion. Let manuscripts and planes stay in Poland for ever. Do you think I will worry??? hahahahahahahahaha I am also critical about the romantic past which brought many tragedies upon Poland and its people. Vide: discussion about the Warsaw Rising. However, I don`t see any logical connection to write about the romantic soul and German manuscripts. Where is it? Pieter, you allowed yourself to be carried too far. Let me remind you we are talking about the hypothetical return of German heritage to the country of origin!!! hahahahahahaha If you want to talk about Częstochowa cult, start a new thread.
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Pawian
European
Have you seen my frog?
Posts: 3,266
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Post by Pawian on Aug 26, 2007 15:01:55 GMT -7
Pawian Why are you so difficult with Pieter? hahahahahahaha I don`t know what you are writing about hahahahahaha I didn`t know what exactly he was agreeing with and that`s why I asked for further explanations. I hope it wasn`t too offensive??? hahahahahahahahaha Read my answer to Pieter which will explain more. Unfortunately, the present Gdansk is the shadow of the one from the past. O la la, What strong words and so totally wrong. hahahahaha I do not resent Germans, quite the opposite. You can see it in Polish Impressions thread where I recently constantly refer to objects at the Polish seaside as built by clever Germans. If I was resentful, I would write nothing about it. What I resent is the selective memory of certain Germans. I don`t need any apologies. Germans have apologised thousands of times and that`s enough. For 40 years they said nothing about their cultural items in Polish hands, even when Poland accessed Europe, understanding that it was just another kind of punishment for what they did in Poland during the war. Now the one-target campaign started with Poland in the main role. What about other countries which till today have kept German loot? I demand that Germans are fair and consequent. hahahahahahahahahahaha Really, this is an amazing piece of advice. And so mistaken.
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Post by pieter on Aug 26, 2007 15:45:29 GMT -7
Pawian, do you mean ambivallent with equivocal or dubious? I meant ambiguous. I just didn`t know what you thought of when you declared your agreement with Charles. Right, I understand what you mean, seen from your point of view. I don't know either, it's something between you two! If the picture by Rafael, stolen from Krakow`s museum by Hans Frank could be returned it should be returned. Countries could exchange stolen art and manuscripts to improve the relationship with the former enemy. The problem is that most countries won't return looted assets, because of the public opinion, the value of the collections and legal protection by national laws and bureaucratic restrictions. I stay with my previous statement that German art in Polish or Russian/American hands is OK as long as it is open to the public. The looted Polish and other European countries art is often hard to trace, because it is hidden in private collections of collectors. www.telegraph.co.uk/arts/main.jhtml?view=DETAILS&grid=&xml=/arts/2007/04/03/basales103.xmlClear! I don't agree with this statement, because what I supported in Charles earlier message was the fact that art & culture moved from one country to another country in a war is the outcome of historical geographic changes. The art and cultural objects stay the same (wheather they are in Polish or German hands) indifferant of the fact in which hands they lay. In both countries these objects should be accessable to the public. I don't know the answer! I think that you, Charles and I agree on that we disagree with the German press? No! There is no connection! Pieter, you allowed yourself to be carried too far. Let me remind you we are talking about the hypothetical return of German heritage to the country of origin![/quote] Yes, I allowed myself to be carried too far! I will!
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Pawian
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Have you seen my frog?
Posts: 3,266
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Post by Pawian on Aug 27, 2007 9:29:09 GMT -7
Guys, Charles and Pieter, I joined this discussion because I got irritated by German silly demands that Poland should give back German music manuscripts and planes. First of all, let me remind you that all of them weren`t looted by Polish troops but were found in secret places on the land which was given to Poland as war reperations. Secondly, read this interesting article which is quite fresh. It presents a problem which is just a tip of an iceberg: www.heraldtimesonline.com/stories/2007/08/16/nationworld.nw-277284.sto?printf=1 VIENNA, Austria (AP) - A cross dating to the Middle Ages has turned up in a trash bin in Austria, police said Thursday.
A woman looking for old crockery in a trash container in the western Austrian town of Zell am See stumbled upon the precious piece in 2004, Salzburg police said.
Now experts say the cross could be worth as much as US$536,620.
The curator, Hermann Mayrhofer, alerted police. An investigation revealed that, until World War II, the cross had been part of a Polish art collection belonging to Izabella Elzbieta of Czartoryski Dzialinska.
Before the outbreak of war, Elzbieta tried to hide the piece from the Nazis by concealing it in the cellar of a building in Warsaw. But the Nazis found it in 1941 and later brought it, along with other items from Elzbieta's collection, to a castle in Austria. It is unclear what happened next.
This summer, the cross was taken to Vienna for analysis but it has now been returned to the museum in Leogang. Experts at Vienna's fine arts museum determined that it comes from Limoges, France, and dates to about 1200.
A judge in Zell am See has decided that for now the cross should be kept in the museum security. Mayrhofer said it would soon be included in a special exhibit at the museum.
Charles, German version for you too!!!: derstandard.at/?url=/?id=2999160 Bis zur Rückgabe wird das wertvolle Limoges-Kreuz im Bergbaumuseum von Leogang ausgestellt.
Leogang – Fast wäre ein rund 800 Jahre altes Kreuz aus der mittelalterlichen Kunstmanufaktur im französischen Limoges im Sperrmüll gelandet. Hätte nicht eine 58-jährige Pinzgauerin Gefallen an dem Objekt gefunden, es drei Jahre zu Hause aufbewahrt und erst vor wenigen Wochen auf Anraten eines Bekannten dem Bergbaumuseum in Leogang in Salzburg übergeben. Nun konnte in Zusammenarbeit mit dem Landeskriminalamt auch die abenteuerliche Reise des Kunstschatzes rekonstruiert werden. Die Details wurden am Donnerstag bei einer Pressekonferenz im Museum bekannt gegeben. Zuerst zum Kunstwerk selbst: Das Passionskreuz ist aus vergoldetem Kupferblech und Email gefertigt und stellt auf der Frontseite Christus am Kreuz dar. Auf der Rückseite sind mehrere Medaillons angebracht. Das Kreuz dürfte um 1200 entstanden sein, zum Wert wollte Kurator Hermann Mayerhofer vorerst keine Angaben. Bei Auktionen in Paris oder London hätten derartige Stücke jedoch Preise bis zu 400.000 Euro erzielt.
Das wertvolle Stück stammt aus dem Besitz der polnischen Adelsfamilie Czartoryski Dzialinska. Vor Ausbruch des Zweiten Weltkrieges hat die damalige Eigentümerin versucht, die Sammlung vor den Nazis zu retten. Sie hat die Stücke in Warschau in den Keller eines Hauses gebracht und dort eingemauert.
Im Dezember 1941 wurde das Versteck jedoch von den Nazis entdeckt und die Sammlung in das polnische Nationalmuseum Warschau gebracht. Nach dem Warschauer Aufstand wurde die Sammlung nach Österreich in das Schloss Fischhorn in Bruck an der Glocknerstraße verbracht, welches damals von den Nationalsozialisten in Beschlag genommen war. Dort verliert sich die Spur des Kreuzes, das 1889 bei der Weltausstellung in Paris gezeigt worden war.
Hotelier-Nachlass
Nachforschungen ergaben, dass der Schatz nach dem Zweiten Weltkrieg jahrelang in der Wohnung eines Hoteliers in Zell am See aufbewahrt worden sei, erklärte Christian Krieg von der Landeskriminalabteilung. Wie und wann der im Jahre 2004 verstorbene Mann, der in Badgastein ein Hotel besaß, zu dem wertvollen Kreuz gekommen war, gibt der Exekutive noch Rätsel auf.
Nach dem Tod des Hoteliers entsorgten Verwandte jedenfalls dessen Inventar. Die Gegenstände sollten in einem Autoanhänger zur Müllsammelstelle Zemka in Zell am See gebracht werden. Doch die 58-jährige Nachbarin Lydia G. kramte vor der Abfahrt noch nach Geschirr und zog dann das Kreuz heraus. Die Nichte des Verstorbenen wollte es aber nicht haben und schenkte es der Finderin.
Nachdem die Nachbarin das Kreuz drei Jahre lang unter der Couch verwahrt hatte, meinte sie heuer in einem Gespräch mit dem pensionierten Herzspezialisten Peter B., falls sie sterben werde, würde ja auch ihre Wohnung ausgeräumt. „Sie erzählte dem Arzt von dem Kreuz, und der hat den historischen Wert erkannt“, berichtete Kriminalist Krieg. Am 16. Juli trug der Herzspezialist, der in Linz beschäftigt war, die wertvolle Rarität schließlich ins Bergbaumuseum Leogang.
Es werde noch längere Zeit dauern, bis das Kreuz von den Erben abgeholt wird, meinte Museumskurator Mayerhofer. Die „Commission for looted Art“ London, die auf das Aufspüren von Beutekunst aus dem Zweiten Weltkrieg spezialisiert hat, wurde vom polnischen Kulturministerium bereits eingeschaltet und vertritt die Erben. Ein „Finderlohn“ steht der Frau, die das Kreuz vor dem Versinken im Müll gerettet hat, nicht zu.
Nach Rücksprache mit dem Bezirksgericht Zell am See wurde das Exponat in das Bergbaumuseum Leogang zurückgebracht, da es dort sicher und fachgerecht aufbewahrt werden kann. Wie der Kurator des Bergbaumuseums mitteilte, ist beabsichtigt dieses besonders wertvolle Exponat in nächster Zeit auszustellen.
Angst vor einem Diebstahl hat der Kurator nicht. „In der Zwischenzeit wird das Kreuz in einer Vitrine ausgestellt, und zwar ab sofort. Die Vitrine ist schusssicher und alarmgesichert. Im Haus herrschen höchste Sicherheitsvorkehrungen. Es gibt noch vier Limoges-Exponate bei uns zu sehen. Mit dem Kreuz haben wir jetzt die größte Limoges-Sammlung, die man in Österreich sehen kann“, sagte Mayerhofer nicht ohne Stolz.
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