Pawian
European
Have you seen my frog?
Posts: 3,266
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Post by Pawian on Dec 26, 2008 5:24:29 GMT -7
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Post by archivist on Dec 26, 2008 7:50:55 GMT -7
Pawian,
Thank you for posting photographs of British graves along with all the others. I was saddened to see the state of the German graves. No matter what they did, or how we feel about them, these men paid the ultimate price and deserve dignity in death - even those who did not afford dignity to their Jewish victims. I hope at some point, that there will be funds available to tend these graves properly.
Neville
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Post by karl on Dec 26, 2008 8:45:47 GMT -7
Pawian
Thank you for sharing further of our graves. In reality of the condition, it is ok {in my personal mind}. For those our war time dead upon foreign soil, found and given a decent Christian burial, is a tribute to the decency of good people in that area.
For the Panzer crews, it was not so good in cases of many. For the machines often if hit with armour piercing rounds, the interior would be shredded and it is then very messy. In the cases of a explosive round hit, in many cases the machine is prone to burning and it is not difficult to understand the state of any crew members remaining in the hulk.
For in the tight quarters of the Panzer {modern and old} it is filled with explosive ammunition in storage racks/hydraulic lines/fuel storage controls/painted surfaces/plastic fittings and what ever. All when heated to a high temperature, become an inferno in confined space such as the interior.
With time, has brought excellent engineering in design and materials for these machines. This for enhanced safety/weapon effectiveness. Even with the enhancement of compartmented design of separation of explosive ammunition from the crew area, once a penetration is achieved, it is to the fortunes of luck and contact area.
Thank you again for your caring
Karl
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Pawian
European
Have you seen my frog?
Posts: 3,266
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Post by Pawian on Dec 26, 2008 15:37:20 GMT -7
Pawian, Thank you for posting photographs of British graves along with all the others. I was saddened to see the state of the German graves. No matter what they did, or how we feel about them, these men paid the ultimate price and deserve dignity in death - even those who did not afford dignity to their Jewish victims. I hope at some point, that there will be funds available to tend these graves properly. Neville There is still a problem with acceptance for WW2 German graves. After the war all of them were razed to the ground. It was only after the collapse of communism and the end of Cold War that such graves have slowly reappeared. There isn`t any problem with German graves from WW1. There are many military cemeteries in southern Poland containing German, Russian, Austrian, Czech, Hungarian ashes. Most of them are well maintained. www.jerzyborow.republika.pl/cemet/info.jpgKarl, an you decpiher for us what is written in German in the second photo? I read the translation on the information board next to the cemetery but I forgot because it is poetry. More photos: polandsite.proboards104.com/index.cgi?board=places&action=display&thread=113
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Post by archivist on Dec 26, 2008 16:48:26 GMT -7
Pawian,
Thank you for this follow up; I still believe that the graves should be properly marked - and with dignity. The dead are dead, they have paid the price and can be hurt no more. Russian/Communist style razing of the graves is nothing more than a bitter, cynical act of revenge. The Poles are good and decent people and I cannot believe that they are still looking for revenge nearly 70 years ( a human life time) after the event. Please Poland, try to find the money to honour the dead.
Neville
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Post by tuftabis on Dec 28, 2008 2:44:00 GMT -7
Please Poland, try to find the money to honour the dead. Neville Neville, it goes without saying that the graves of all human beings demand respect. Even the graves of former enemy soldiers, especially that the vast majority of them on one hand had no real choice, on the other grew up in an environment which could make them think they are doing the right thing. However, as mentioned earlier, the situation with Wehrmacht graves in Poland is not that clear as it is with the graves of other enemy formations. This is connected to the fact that Wehrmacht commited atrocities and war crimes during WWII in Poland, as a rule not as an exception. Most importantly these were mass executions of civilians and terror bombing of cities plus intentional destruction and theft of Polish material culture. Werhmacht was an important tool in the task Germany was trying to achieve. Poles have to and indeed they do remember that task even now, after 70 years and after this blessed change which occurred in Europe with modern or 'new' Germans being in large part our friends and allies. And this task was outlined by Hitler on August 22, 1939, a few days before the official start of World War II. Hitler authorized his commanders, with these infamous words, to kill "without pity or mercy, all men, women, and children of Polish descent or language. Only in this way can we obtain the living space [lebensraum] we need". Heinrich Himmler echoed "All Poles will disappear from the world.... It is essential that the great German people should consider it as its major task to destroy all Poles." And this task was performed primarily by Wehrmacht. Also it was not only the Jews who were traeted without any respect by the Germans, it was also Poles, Russians and other Slavs. More on that in the site devoted to 'Forgotten Holocaust'. www.holocaustforgotten.com/poland.htmBeing a person interested in the history of WWII you are of course aware of these differences between East and Western front of the WWII, unfortunately it is not so in case of the average John Smith. Today we live in another reality and the past of WWII is in the large part overcome. This is reflected in the state of the German soldiers graves as well. But it is not Poland who is to fund those graves as ccording to the Polish-German Treaty on Good Neighbourhood and Friendly Cooperation signed in 1991, it is to the will and possibility held by the German side. Namely the German War Graves Agency. Only the 'artistic' form and the content of inscriptions are to be supevised by the Polish foundation 'Pamięć'. Generally speaking the graves of German soldiers in Poland are in good shape, and cared by Polish people. Nothing like the acts of desacration happening to, for instance, Jewish graves in Western Europe, are noted that I know about.
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Post by archivist on Dec 30, 2008 13:01:03 GMT -7
Thank you Tuftabis,
Your words have given me a new insight. You are absolutely right about the average John Smith. They, like me, have never lived under the kind of oppression that the Poles have endured for so many years. It is difficult to comprehend that National leaders would make such statements and that the lower echelons would carry out those orders so enthusiastically.
We have never had a Katyn, or a holocaust perpetrated against us and I don't think we will ever fully understand the horror of such an event. The crucial words were "as a rule, not as an exception". That really made me think.
The War Graves authorities in all countries appear to be the same. Our War Graves Commission tends all graves but if you are not British or from the British Commonwealth, your grave does not turn up on searches of their database.
We have also had Jewish graves desecrated but this is the work of Neo-nazis who are generally just thugs who are too young to remember real Nazism. They also manifest themselves as football hooligans and patriotic Britons. Unfortunately, their patriotism is measured by how much you can hate and hurt anyone who isn't British, white, Protestant etc. To join their ranks you need to have an IQ lower than the average moron.
Hopefully, in another 100 years old hatreds will be forgotten.
Neville
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Post by tuftabis on Dec 31, 2008 1:20:51 GMT -7
Thank you Tuftabis, Your words have given me a new insight. You are absolutely right about the average John Smith. They, like me, have never lived under the kind of oppression that the Poles have endured for so many years. It is difficult to comprehend that National leaders would make such statements and that the lower echelons would carry out those orders so enthusiastically. We have never had a Katyn, or a holocaust perpetrated against us and I don't think we will ever fully understand the horror of such an event. The crucial words were "as a rule, not as an exception". That really made me think. The War Graves authorities in all countries appear to be the same. Our War Graves Commission tends all graves but if you are not British or from the British Commonwealth, your grave does not turn up on searches of their database. We have also had Jewish graves desecrated but this is the work of Neo-nazis who are generally just thugs who are too young to remember real Nazism. They also manifest themselves as football hooligans and patriotic Britons. Unfortunately, their patriotism is measured by how much you can hate and hurt anyone who isn't British, white, Protestant etc. To join their ranks you need to have an IQ lower than the average moron. Hopefully, in another 100 years old hatreds will be forgotten. Neville Neville, my personal belief is that old hatreds, old stereotypes are dying out right now. This is one of the great successes of European Union and the integration of West and East in European terms. But I am afraid the new hatreds will be there in 100 years. And Samuel Huntingtonm who died recently, has predicted: the West-East conflict, in worldwide terms, will be replaces by North-South one. It happens on our eyes, so to say. Btw. I too think you are a great addition to this forum. You posses that fine British attriubute allowing to somehow, almost unnoticably get over the areas of friction, but still naming them, into the areas of common ground. We joke in Poland this attribute enabled Britain to posses the only real empire in human history. Instead of killing local kings in Africa or India, you made them British noblemen ;D I regret Poland was not able to do that in the past ;D
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Post by archivist on Dec 31, 2008 4:53:02 GMT -7
Thanks for your kind words Tuftabis. In my job I have to deal with some of the nastiest people in Western Europe and there can be a lot of confrontation. Tact and diplomacy are a requirement if you are going to avoid conflict. Sometimes compromise is possible and sometimes it is even desireable. But sometimes you just have to stand firm and take the hard line.
In this forum, it is easy! People here may be diametrically opposed to your views but they respect and tolerate them. If the whole world was like that, we'd have few problems.
Neville
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Pawian
European
Have you seen my frog?
Posts: 3,266
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Post by Pawian on Jan 9, 2009 15:17:12 GMT -7
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Post by Jaga on Jan 9, 2009 19:45:30 GMT -7
this looks like quite a storm! I start to believe that the climate is really changing everywhere around the world!
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Post by archivist on Jan 10, 2009 12:16:29 GMT -7
This certainly looks like climate change, but it doesn't look like global warming!
Neville
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Pawian
European
Have you seen my frog?
Posts: 3,266
|
Post by Pawian on Jan 10, 2009 13:42:56 GMT -7
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Post by archivist on Jan 10, 2009 14:01:04 GMT -7
Thanks Pawian,
It is gratifying to see memorials to British airmen. My quest is for Poles who died for Britain, but I have not forgotten Brits who died for Poland.
Neville
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Pawian
European
Have you seen my frog?
Posts: 3,266
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Post by Pawian on Feb 1, 2009 14:09:10 GMT -7
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