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Post by Jaga on Dec 20, 2006 22:30:16 GMT -7
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scatts
Cosmopolitan
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Post by scatts on Dec 25, 2006 14:58:30 GMT -7
The whole Jewish heritage thing is massive business over here but I have yet to see the Poles taking full advantage of it.
I'm also going to be brave/stupid and say that most Poles are not big fans of Jewish people, based on more or less every Pole I've ever spoken to over here. So, in my very 'umble opinion, the Jewish tour industry could well become the cause of a little unrest in years to come.
Just a thought.
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Post by Jaga on Dec 25, 2006 18:01:34 GMT -7
Scatts,
it depends on the region of Poland, for instance in Silesia there were no any anti-Jewish feelings whatsoever but there were some in the region of Poland which belonged to Russia before WW II. So, Poles were split according to the old partition boarders with their views of Jewish population.
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bujno
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Post by bujno on Dec 26, 2006 4:05:54 GMT -7
I'm also going to be brave/stupid and say that most Poles are not big fans of Jewish people, based on more or less every Pole I've ever spoken to over here. Scatts, based on more or less every Pole I've ever spoken to over here I must say that such a generalization is simply over-generalized. There are Poles that are plainly anti-Semitic, there are those that are neutral (meaning they just dont care) and there are those who are fond of Jewish culture and heritage - isn't it the same in England? However you should have hard time trying to find educated Pole nowadays who doesn't accept the role of Polish Jews, or Jewish Poles, whatever you call them, in Polands history and culture.
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scatts
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Post by scatts on Dec 26, 2006 9:35:21 GMT -7
bujno. I wasn't speaking for the Polish nation, I was just stating a fact from my own experience that circa 90% of Poles (primarily in Warszawa) to whom I have been speaking when this subject came up (by whatever means) expressed a dislike, mistrust or sometimes stronger feelings against Jews. The best case has been indifference, I have not met anyone who I could describe as "fond". The same feelings do exist in the UK, of course, and I'm sure just as much in the US or probably in any other country. If I were to compare though, the anti-Jewish 'expressions of feeling' here to the UK, Poland is much stronger. IN MY PERSONAL EXPERIENCE. This no doubt has a lot to do with history, the sheer numbers that used to live in Poland and the fact that the majority of them were killed here with all the ensuing "publicity". Like I said. I'm not trying to portray Poland as an anti-semitic nation. I'm sure all the people I haven't met have different views to all the ones I have. And I haven't been hanging around in neo-nazi clubs either!
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bujno
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Post by bujno on Dec 26, 2006 13:51:53 GMT -7
I understand that you're presenting your personal experience only. So am I. Don't get me wrong but I still do think that writing>> I'm also going to be brave/stupid and say that most Poles are not big fans of Jewish people, based on more or less every Pole I've ever spoken to over here.<< is a kind of a generalisation. Driven from your personal experience on the whole group as stated in he citation. It is such generalisations that I am against, not about what you've wrote specifically INSIDE that generalisation. If you don't mind - would you take one's words seriously would he had written that, basing on his experience most of the English are stiff, conceited and pert? Sure you wouldn't, even if that somone would present a 'historical' explanations why the English are more like that than non-English.
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Pawian
European
Have you seen my frog?
Posts: 3,266
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Post by Pawian on Dec 26, 2006 15:23:42 GMT -7
Scats, I am proud to say I am fond of Jews, their culture and history which has fascinated me since my childhood, practically. Now you can add me to this 10% of Poles from your experience who are not against.
Bujno,
I am afraid Scats is right. He is still very tactful when he says about Polish "stronger" feelings towards Jews. He could have used much more poignant term.
I know that far too many Poles are prejudiced against Jews. Try a certain test - when you call somebody a Jew in Poland - is it positive or negative?
This resentment has always existed, but it has been spinned out of control by our moron politicians who just love to call their adversaries Jews and that is meant as the biggest offence.
What a pity. This society will take a few generations to improve and become more intelligent.
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bujno
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Post by bujno on Dec 26, 2006 15:47:54 GMT -7
Pawian, I assure that I know very well what I am talking about. I too know Poles prejudiced against Jews, although most that I know are neutral or even kind of fond of. It is called the conscious forming of one's environment I dont think the proportions differ from those in England especially, except there's less PC in Poland, and people voice their prejudicies.
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Post by Jaga on Dec 27, 2006 18:14:23 GMT -7
In the past any time we discussed Polish-Jewish topic - it was evoking very hot discussions in the forum. Now it almost looks like everybody it tired of discussing this anymore. I noticed that in Silesia people go from indifference to sympathy towards Jews, in Krakow - it depends. When I was a travel guide to Auschwitz I meet some Jewish people who accused Poles for Auschwitz. I was very astonished by this, especially since we know how difficult was WW II for all Poles. So I guess, there is work on reoconcillation between Poles and Jews needed for both sides
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bujno
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Posts: 648
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Post by bujno on Dec 28, 2006 5:20:04 GMT -7
Jaga, of course you are right and of course these were wise words you wrote. I am against generalizations and I usally voice that. I don't think nor do I find any reason why people living in Warsaw or in historical Russian partition which ended up almost 100 years ago - would differ from those closer to Germany, with its history. I think that nowadays the anti-Semitism in Poland, which sure exists is a lesser problem than in countries of Western Europe, like France, Great Britain, Holland or Germany. In Poland the any-Semitic theses are something shameful, in the other parts of Europe they are slowly making their way to the 'mainstream'. It is high time to face it, no matter if we are tired of the subject... Sorry for this prolonagtion of a 'hot topic' as you called it
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Post by bescheid on Dec 28, 2006 9:32:39 GMT -7
Just a comment pertaining to this subject as an addition to the fine contributions previously presented.
As we are primarily cognoscente of Jewish history in Europe. So I will dispense with re-inventing the wheel in that regard.
The cultural exchange programme that Jaga has presented is a very fine vehicle for cultural exchange for young people. For here we have living representatives as an exchange opportunity between those of the USA/Poland and Israel.
It is an opportunity for each young individual to meet with others within the same age group for an exchange and to learn, that the other fellow is not that different then them selves. Other then language and customs. It is moments such as within these experiences that shape and mold the personality of each. From these experiences in their travels, they learn the tools of understanding that each in turn will bring back to their home land.
We do not have control of our world and the negative feelings expressed by others in regards to {Anti-Semitism} but, as individuals, we have the opportunity to teach our children not to differentiate one from the other for racial reasons. From that point on, it is up to the young people as to how they apply the tools of understanding they have been given.
We as adults, have had our try in this world that we inherited from our elders. Let our replacements have a better foundation of tools to work with being that of knowledge and understanding.
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Post by sciwriter on Dec 29, 2006 11:21:49 GMT -7
Guys, same like/dislike/indifference percentages for Jews in USA. Also in USA, there are numerous marriages between Jews an Non-Jews. Carl
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Post by pieter on Dec 30, 2006 7:31:24 GMT -7
Interesting discussion! I find it hard to put personal emotions aside and thus will take not part in this discussion, since I have Polish and Jewish friends. I simply dislike both anti-semitism and anti-polonism, because both are uncivilized, rude, based on stereotypes and so generalisations. I see though a personal and general truth in all your contributions! These discussions are necassery.In the Netherlands this discussion is slightly differant, because the word "jew" could be replaced by Muslim, because the resentment against this newcommers is as strong as the recentment against jews in most parts of Europe during many centuries.
I have to add this to the conversation. Ofcourse in the Netherlands there is anti-semitism like in many other countries. This anti-semitism is renewed however due to the conflict in the Middle east, and the old christian and social-darwinist atheist (right and left ideological) anti-semitisms are "enriched" with a new branch, the Islamist antisemitism of radical migrants.
The origin of this anti-semitism is European however, because the fraudulent text Protocols of the Elders of Zion, from the Russian Tzarist empire was spread over the Arab world and used by the Arab totalitarian governments and the Islamist movements. Ofcourse iran used it too. Nazi propaganda also had it's influence in the Arab world, where Hitler was a popular person.
Pieter
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Post by troubledgoodangel on Feb 5, 2007 11:32:08 GMT -7
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Post by troubledgoodangel on Feb 5, 2007 12:00:02 GMT -7
Although my own ancestry is Jewish, I have been disappointed with the Conservative Jewish Forum in Poland after a 50-year stay abroad. When I left Poland in the mid-50's, the term "kultura" meant politness, thoughtfulness, and nobility in dealing with others. Being respectful of others, my aunt Princess Zofia Po³ubiñska had taught me, was to treat them as if they were all princes, with kindness and with dignity! No more! Today, Jews and Poles alike, brainwashed to death by Communist indoctrination, act churlishly at every opportunity when someone tries to show them "kultura." When I tried to share my rather vast theological experience with the mentioned Forum, several individuals stepped up and used a hostile foul language against me, forcing the moderators to ban my participation ... not theirs! The foul language was OK for these conservative Jews, but the truth about their own Yahwh was not! And so I am no longer a member of the kakofonia@jewish.org in Poland. But going back to the culture question in Poland, I am appalled how widespread is (often self-induced) antisemitism and boorishness (chamstwo)! You cannot even walk into a pharmacy and ask for a medication without being lectured and put down by much younger female clerks totally lacking respect for the customer! All this, obviously, is a Communist leftover from the time when people were numbers! But the worst of all is the boorish example by the leaders of the government, who often rape prostitutes when on assignment in Belgium, and who later, like someone I won't mention by name, announce to the Polish Nation that "prostitutes can't be raped." All this is extremely insulting to, and unworthy of, our great Polish People!
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