george
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Post by george on Jun 3, 2006 9:41:58 GMT -7
Despite reputation as staunch Catholics, Poles show independence
The faith on which Poles stand firm is not always consistent with Vatican precepts
By John L. Allen Jr.
Warsaw, Poland
Editor's Note: Read NCRonline.org daily for John Allen's reports on Pope Benedict XVI's trip to Poland May 25-28.
The motto of Benedict XVI's May 25-28 visit to Poland is "Stand firm in your faith," and the good news, according to Warsaw sociologist Bogdan Cichomski, is that Poles are indeed firm. National surveys from 1992 to 2005, he said, have found little significant change in attitudes on faith and morals from the collapse of Communism to the present.
The bad news for Benedict, however, is that the faith on which Poles stand firm is not always consistent with Vatican precepts.
Yet there is also something of a silver lining for the pope -- on one issue, abortion, the percentage of Poles who agree with church teaching has been going up, even if it is not a majority under all circumstances.
Editor's Note: Check back with NCRonline.org for another story from Poland later today.
Cichomski, a professor of the Institute for Social Studies at Warsaw University, is the director of the Polish General Social Survey, the country's most rigorous annual general interest survey. He spoke to NCR in an exclusive interview May 25.
Despite Poland's reputation as a Catholic stronghold, Cichomski's results show some significant variances with official church positions.
A whopping 80 percent of Poles, for example, believe a woman should be able to get a legal abortion if her health is at risk, and 74 percent support legal abortion if there is a serious chance of a birth defect.
A solid majority of Poles, 52 percent, also favor physician-assisted suicide.
Asked about sex before marriage, 64 percent of Poles said it is "not wrong at all," and an additional 11 percent said it is only "sometimes wrong," meaning that three-quarters of Poles do not subscribe to church teaching on the question.
Twice as many Poles believe divorce should be easier to obtain than more difficult, 40 to 20 percent, while the rest believe it should stay as it is or have no opinion. Under Polish law, couples must show "irretrievable and complete disintegration of matrimonial life" in order to justify divorce. Divorce is not to be granted if it is contrary to the interests of the couple's children, or if it is requested solely by the party primarily responsible for the disintegration.
While 98.5 percent of Poles consider themselves Catholic, the percentage who describe themselves as "believers" is lower, 82 percent, and just 38.4 percent go to Mass at least once a week. ((When the question is if they go “nearly once a week,” the percentage rises to 53 percent, with 63 percent of rural Poles saying they attend Mass at that frequency and 40 percent of city-dwellers).
A majority of Poles, 52 percent, also believe the church has too much power in the country, while only 1.7 percent say it has too little. (The rest said "about right" or didn't know).
Those percentages have shown only minor variations from 1992 to 2005, Cichomski said, suggesting a basically stable consensus.
In general, Cichomski said, Poland's sociological profile is similar to that of Ireland on most matters of faith and values, which means that Poles are closer to church teaching than much of Western Europe.
Yet on some issues regarding sexuality and marriage, Poles are actually considerably more liberal than the United States.
For example, only 37 percent of Americans believe sex before marriage is "not wrong at all," as opposed to 64 percent of Poles, and 15 percent more Americans believe a spouse cheating on his or her partner is "always wrong" (63 percent of Poles agreed, as opposed to 78 percent of Americans).
All this raises some doubt, Cichomski said, about whether Poland is really likely to inject the Catholic "booster shot" into the rest of Europe for which John Paul II and now Benedict have longed.
Perhaps unsurprisingly, the surveys show strong correlations between place of residence (urban versus rural) and levels of education with religious faith and practice. In general, urban dwellers with high education levels are less likely to go to Mass regularly or to pray.
More Trip Coverage
John Allen's preview of the papal trip: Benedict's concerns for Poland trip:.
May 25, The trip is launched: Benedict sets about reawakening Europe's Christian roots.
May 26, A social survey of Poland: Poles are staunchly Catholic but also independent.
May 26, The Pope's message in Victory Square and at Czestochowa: Faith is a gift but also a task.
May 26, Subtext to the pope's visit: Some interesting nuggets.
May 27, A great trip for pilgrims: Benedict offers spiritual and pastoral basics.
May 27, Exploring John Paul's roots: Benedict's visit to the Divine Mercy Sanctuary.
May 27, A look at the issues: Examining the trip thus far.
May 28, The pope's take on death camps: Attempting to slay God was Auschwitz's greatest evil.
May 28, The Poles' speical vocation: Pope tells Poles 'share the treasure of your faith'.
May 28, U.S.-Polish ties: Knights of Columbus opening Polish councils.
Yet all is not bad news for the church.
While majorities of Poles support abortion for medical reasons, the extent of that support is the one notable exception, Cichomski said, to the basic stability of Polish attitudes. In general, the percentage of Poles who take a "pro-choice" view under at least some circumstances is declining, while the "pro-life" stance is growing.
In 1992, for example, 81.7 percent of Poles supported abortion if there is a serious risk of birth defect; in 2005, that number was 74 percent. In 1992, 45 percent said a woman should be able to have an abortion if she doesn't want to have more children, while only 35 percent held the same view in 2005.
In 1992, 58 percent of Poles said abortion should be legal if a woman feels she cannot afford more children, while only 41 percent agreed in 2005. Similarly, in 1992, 38 percent of Poles supported a woman's right to an abortion for any reason, while only 26 percent agreed in 2005.
Both questions reflect a 12 percent drop in support for the "pro-choice" position.
Cichomski said his research shows increasing correlations over this 13-year period between the extent of someone's religious practice (especially Mass attendance and prayer) and their attitudes on abortion. In other words, he said, church leaders have been successful in consolidating their base.
On abortion, Cichomski said, "Catholics have become more Catholic."
The same trend does not hold true, he cautioned, on matters such as euthanasia, pre-marital sex or homosexuality.
On homosexuality, 63 percent of Poles in 2005 said that sexual relations between people of the same sex are "always wrong," essentially the same figure as in previous years.
On the whole, Cichomski's work suggests a mixed bag for the church in Poland. On the one hand, there is clearly a bedrock of Catholic identity upon which to build, and at least on the abortion issue, there's evidence the church is gaining ground.
On the other hand, across a range of other issues, one finds the same tendency towards independent-mindedness for which Catholics in Western Europe and North America have long been infamous.
In that sense, if Polish Catholics do eventually re-evangelize Europe, as the last two popes have dreamt, Cichomski's work cautions that the gospel they spread may not coincide exactly with the Catechism of the Catholic Church.
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Post by pieter on Sept 17, 2006 9:55:02 GMT -7
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scatts
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Post by scatts on Sept 21, 2006 18:26:47 GMT -7
I have to say that my observations over the last 9 years suggest that religion in Poland, be it Catholic or otherwise, is slowly losing to the religions of money, capitalism, marketing, brands and more money that I was so pleased to leave behind in the UK. This is very sad, but I think true. Give it another 20 years and there will be a lot of very big churches with not many people inside them. In the big cities at least. I suppose in the villages, where people will still need something to hold onto, nothing much will change.
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Post by pieter on Sept 22, 2006 1:25:29 GMT -7
I have to say that my observations over the last 9 years suggest that religion in Poland, be it Catholic or otherwise, is slowly losing to the religions of money, capitalism, marketing, brands and more money that I was so pleased to leave behind in the UK. This is very sad, but I think true. Give it another 20 years and there will be a lot of very big churches with not many people inside them. In the big cities at least. I suppose in the villages, where people will still need something to hold onto, nothing much will change. Interesting informative reply, from a good observer. Thank you Scatts. Pieter |
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bujno
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Post by bujno on Sept 22, 2006 4:14:13 GMT -7
Scatts, you may be right. But - what makes you think so? Are the churches less crowded then they were 9 years ago? Or did the moral background of people's deeds in Poland deteriorate in this 9 years period? I am asking since I think that money, capitalism, marketing, brands and more money is in my opinion just not enough of an argument to back what you forsee. I mean that there are countries on our globe where > money, capitalism, marketing, brands and more money < do not interefere with religion that much. On the other hand - if we look at Western Europe example, then yes - all that has somehow added to rapid secularization, or even laicisation of the society. So - once again, what make's you think so?
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scatts
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Post by scatts on Sept 22, 2006 4:25:36 GMT -7
Like I say bujno, this is my observation and could not be representative. I do not see the crowds going to church today that I saw 9 years ago. There is not so much talk of religion and church amongst the people I mix with. I don't think moral background has anything to do with it. I think that during communist rule religion was outlawed. What is the best way to make something popular? Have an oppressive regime outlaw it, it will be an overnight success. The church therefore played a dual role in being a way of sticking a finger up at the commies at the same time as providing some feeling of home, of security and of hope. These things were provided to everyone, whether they were truly spiritual or not.
Time goes by, the commies have gone and for the majority of people who were not truly spiritual the reasons they went to church are being slowly eroded. They drift away, holding on only to things like Easter, Christmas, All Souls and so on.
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bujno
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Post by bujno on Sept 22, 2006 4:42:38 GMT -7
Thanks. I was just curious, that's all. You've got some insightful observations indeed, but you give me just 'the final results'. I was just intersted what made you think so or so  |
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Post by pieter on Sept 22, 2006 5:00:10 GMT -7
Scatts, you may be right. But - what makes you think so? Are the churches less crowded then they were 9 years ago? Or did the moral background of people's deeds in Poland deteriorate in this 9 years period? I am asking since I think that money, capitalism, marketing, brands and more money is in my opinion just not enough of an argument to back what you forsee. I mean that there are countries on our globe where > money, capitalism, marketing, brands and more money < do not interefere with religion that much. On the other hand - if we look at Western Europe example, then yes - all that has somehow added to rapid secularization, or even laicisation of the society. So - once again, what make's you think so? Wojtek, Tou are right in your opinion that the new Capitalism will not decrease religious feelings in Poland, because Catholicism is deeply rooted, form the other hand secularisation is a Global Western phenomenon which will not stop at the door of Poland. Influences of Poles, who work and live in Secular countries will come in, even when these Poles are not Secular themselves, they just tell what they experianced in the countries they went to, and people will compare things, the positive and the negative. But catholicism is to deeply rooted in the Polish history, it's recent heritage, family, society and in some cases education, that it will not just fade away. The differance with Western cities, is that you see a lot of religious activity in the lage Polish cities Warszawa and Krakow, as a visitor. Pieter |
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bujno
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Post by bujno on Sept 25, 2006 2:29:34 GMT -7
Agree, Pieter. There's a lot of religoius activity in towns, although less than in the times Poland was subdued by the Soviet Russia. In the villages, in the country - almost nothing changed though. What Scatts observes is that there is actually less people in the churches etc. than it used to be. That is true. If we can asribe that to the growing reign of money or to the end of double role churched played in the old times is a matter of discussion and personal views. Scatts does realize that apart from religious role the church served as the keeper of Polish identity and in the new times this second role has stopped to be needed. (which the chruch has for a long time failed to observe...). I think that this end of 'patriotiv role' role of church is the most important factor for the slight decrease in waht what call 'popular catholicism', and not the capitalism. That's the only difference.
I am of the opinion that the faith will gain even more believers as the each day more obvious confrontation of civilizations grown on Christianity/Judaism and Islam unleashes. And not just in Poland, but in some other European countries as well.
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Post by leslie on Sept 25, 2006 3:10:42 GMT -7
As a non-catholic but serious observer of the differences and relations between different sects, may I comment from recent personal experience (I'm not going to tell you what it was as it would mean involving someone else). I don't know too much about the different branches of the Roman Catholic Church, but my experience (particularly) and my other observations suggest to me that the RC Church in its power over people is about 500% stronger in Poland than any other country I have visited. This power, as has been suggested, may be decreasing, but boy it is still there. I believe that the upsurge occurred when the commos lost control of Poland - perhaps it was a case of overcompensation.
Leslie
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scatts
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Post by scatts on Sept 25, 2006 10:12:38 GMT -7
That's an interesting point, bujno. Although I'm not sure they would be signing up for the 'right' reasons.
Leslie, it is far stronger here than anywhere else I've been but then it should be as there are so few, almost zero, other influences to dilute it. It's the only thing people know so it becomes, almost, being Catholic = being Polish.
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Post by Jaga on Sept 25, 2006 17:12:12 GMT -7
I have to say that my observations over the last 9 years suggest that religion in Poland, be it Catholic or otherwise, is slowly losing to the religions of money, capitalism, marketing, brands and more money that I was so pleased to leave behind in the UK. This is very sad, but I think true. Give it another 20 years and there will be a lot of very big churches with not many people inside them. In the big cities at least. I suppose in the villages, where people will still need something to hold onto, nothing much will change. Scatts, I worry about the same. When I was in Germany very few people went to church on Sunday. In a big cathedral in Bonn the Sunday servive took place at one of the site altars since so few people were attending. |
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bujno
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Post by bujno on Sept 25, 2006 22:06:27 GMT -7
That's an interesting point, bujno. Although I'm not sure they would be signing up for the 'right' reasons. Well, with your generally so unfavourable opinion about the Poles I'm sure you may have doubts about that. But faith is not the matter of signing up, is it? |
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scatts
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Post by scatts on Sept 26, 2006 1:32:52 GMT -7
I have an unfavourable opinion about the Poles? Based on?
No, faith is not. I was just speculating that more people (throughout Europe) might attach themselves to Christianity simply as a way of demonstrating against Islam, rather than because they truly believe.
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Post by rdywenur on Sept 26, 2006 3:15:37 GMT -7
When I was in Poland in 98 my family went to church for the Saturday evening mass. Maybe this is the case that you observed. As far as religion I never saw it so strong as I observed in Poland. I hope our western ways have not influenced our religion because it helped reinforce it for me. I also felt it had more of an influence in the closeness of my family in Poland. I wish all stores and businesses were closed on Sunday. Then everyone would know that Sunday is truly God's day and family.
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