St. Stanislaus: On cover of Wall Street Journal

[piwo]

For those who remember the story of St. Stanislaus Kostka Polish Church in St. Louis, they are featured on the front page of todays (Dec.20, 2005)the Wall Street Journal. The plot thickens. The Archbishop excommunicated the entire board at st. Stans, and also a native Pole priest stationed in Springfield MO who said he would preside over midnight mass Christmas Morning.

Money doth truly corrupt.

[Jaga]

Piwo,

thanks for updating us about the situation in the church. Here is a bit more:

Local Catholics React To St. Stanislaus Punishment
created: 12/18/2005 6:27:51 PM



(KSDK) - Sunday marks the first Sabbath Day since six board members at St. Stanislaus Kostka Catholic Church were excommunicated by Archbishop Raymond Burke. The action comes after years of wrangling over control of church assets between board members and numerous archbishops.

But while St. Stanislaus Kostka Catholic Church has a unique Polish heritage, it is also unique in that it is likely the only ethnic, Catholic church in St. Louis that has not subjected to the authority of church officials.

...
But does subjecting to the authority of the Archdiocese means parish pastors have less control over church money?

"No, we have total control over our money," replied Johnson.

So if all these other national or at least ethnic Catholic churches eventually became a part of and make themselves subject to the authority of the Archdiocese, then why not St. Stanislaus.?

Several church members reacted following mass at St. James the Greater.

Greg Chulick said, "And there's your churches out in west county and out in out (of) state Missouri (and) they all abide by what the Archbishop has to say."

Chulick was asked what is different about St. Stanislaus.

"I think they just want to be their own people."

St. James parishioner Leslie Lewis said, "I'm kind of caught in the middle. I know everybody should belong to the Catholic Church and be under the same Archdiocesan rules and regulations but it's been this way for centuries or years. And why does it have to change now?"

Ann Chulick, another St. Louis Catholic, said, "the Archdiocese, as far as I know, is not trying to get all the assets and keep all the buildings and stuff."

Bill Kennebeck said, "As far back as St. Stanislaus goes, I'm sure other ethnic groups go back as far (too). We're all here for one reason: the greater honor and glory of God. Why shouldn't we all be the same?

Also Sunday, St. Stanislaus legal advisor Roger Krasnicki said the church was established as a civil corporation in 1891 by Archbishop Kenrick. Paraphrasing church canon laws, Krasnicki said that if something has existed and not been in contradiction of morals for thirty years then it should stand.

Regarding the battle between St. Stanislaus and the St. Louis Catholic Archdiocese, Krasnicki said, "You created us this way when we were worth nothing. We now have tons of money and now you want us."
www.ksdk.com/news/news_article.aspx?storyid=89527

[franek80]

Piwo;
Our St Stans which was built by Polish Immigrants was shafted too. Againt all protests it was shut down a sold for millions.. Sooo where did the money go???There are other scandals in my old parish.. They got an Italian Pastor.. Soooo, no more KOLEDY at midnight mass.. I myself have had it I lost faith. The will never get another nickle from me

[Jaga]

Franek,

there is quite a long story of the conflict between Polish ethnic churches and the Catholic hierarchy in America (which is usually of Irish origin) which lead to a creation of Polish Catholic Natiional Church:
www.bvmc.org/
too bad!

[piwo]

Well, the hypocrisy it hard to take here. There are WAY TOO MANY priest molestation cases in our Archdiocese, and it is greater then the national average so we are told. Not a single convicted pedophile has been excommunicated, yet the lay board at St. Stan's has been, and no matter what they say, IT"S OVER THE MONEY. The church wanted nothing to do with this church in the 1800's, and in the 1960's when it was a war zone. Now that the parishioners have donated millions and the yuppies are moving back into the area, the land is worth even more millions. NOW the church wants it, but only for church continuity reasons!

I'll not pull any punches here: I've wanted to say this on a few other threads but always refrained or cleaned it up.

DON"T PISS ON MY LEG AND TELL ME IT'S RAINING!

Native Poles who immigrate to this this country for the most part back the Archdiocese, and Amerikanami z polskiego pochodzenia, who's families grew up at the church, back St. Stans. Card carrying catholics parishioners and priests have been kicked out of the church, pedophiles continue to receive the sacraments...

Just another day...........

[Jaga]

Piwo,

good point. Here is the article in Polish about all this problems in the church:

www.pogonowski.com/display_pl.php?textid=265

[piwo]

Dziękuję Pani bardzo dla takie dobra informacja!

You have far more confidence in my Polish skills then I! It will be a slow read to understand it all, but I will. It's frustrating when you can get maybe 7 or 8 words out of a 10 word sentence, but the two or three you can't hold the overall meaning! Of course, some sentences I don't do that well.

Very up to date, given they reference the article yesterday in the Journal.

Another sign of the hypocrisy, the Archdiocese just posted like $30,000 bond for one of their accused priests (not the first time for this guy), and when the whole thing started, the Archdiocese hired a spokesman for the church: a twice divorced catholic who is a local TV anchorman. Nothing like trying to influence the debate. Even those of other faiths were angry over the overt manner they were trying to bend the issue with the hiring of a TV personality to speak for them.

Breath in, breath out, breath in, breath out... OK, I'm good.

[george]

I have followed this case the last year or so. i think it comes down to this. Do they want to be part of the ROMAN Catholic church or do they want ot break off like the Polish National Church did. The diocese has the right to have control of their Church ( and the Vatican and John Paul agreed ).
This might be a Polish. The Polish parish i belong to will will work their tail off for THEIR Church. But when it comes to donating to some othe cause they seem to hesitate. Bottom line is if they want to be part of the world wide Church ( Roman ) they have to give it up. Its not their private Church.

[piwo]

george said:

I have followed this case the last year or so. i think it comes down to this. Do they want to be part of the ROMAN Catholic church or do they want ot break off like the Polish National Church did. The diocese has the right to have control of their Church ( and the Vatican and John Paul agreed ).
This might be a Polish. The Polish parish i belong to will will work their tail off for THEIR Church. But when it comes to donating to some othe cause they seem to hesitate. Bottom line is if they want to be part of the world wide Church ( Roman ) they have to give it up. Its not their private Church.

well, I agree with most of what you say. While the Vatican and John Paul agreed( actually, this didn't make it's way to John Paul ll till a month or two before he passed, I'm not sure of the due diligence it was given), the church was granted their current structure BY the Church. It's not that they somehow broke away, they are just living up to their end of the bargain. An yes, I believe they will break away from the Roman Catholic Church over this matter. Not all the parish agrees, though voting as been VERY one sided as to the outcome. No real winners I see here and while every side has a point, what I find interesting is all the excommunications. As I pointed out previously, those guilty of unspeakable acts to children are defended by the old boy network, while those living up to their agreement with the church are thrown out of the church. Regardless of your view of this situation, you have to admit, somehow that exposes some serious issues, and puts into question the judgment of the Archbishop. This is the same Archbishop who threatened local priests with sanctions if they issued sacraments to John Kerry when he visited during the campaign, because of his stance on abortion. This guy sticks to his guns, I'll give him that. I just question some of his motives AND his arbitrary selection of where to exert his power.

[george]

No real winners I see here and while every side has a point, what I find interesting is all the excommunications. As I pointed out previously, those guilty of unspeakable acts to children are defended by the old boy network, while those living up to their agreement with the church are thrown out of the church."

Nobody could possibly disagree with this statement. However i think this " old boy network" is ingrained in the Vatican. Many praise John Paul with continuing with his papacy throught out his pontificate despite his illness, but i think because of his old age and illnesses he became part of the problem. If a younger and more vigerous Pope was in power i think he could nipped this bullshit in the bud. I think history will look down on this episode and put a black mark next to his pontificate.

[piwo]

... but i think because of his old age and illnesses he became part of the problem. I think history will look down on this episode and put a black mark next to his pontificate.

Unfortunately, that is the whisper that is heard most often, after the pronouncement of love for the man. He was held in such high esteem and loved by BILLIONS, yes, even high praise from Chinese Government officials and millions of Muslims. Yet, his unwillingness to step down at the end is also remembered. We don't know definitively if he was not entirely in good mental capacity, but many believe he was not, and that is a shame.

I believe this will pass in time, which may be a good reason not to start the process to sainthood faster then normal. Let some time pass, and the only real "grumble" will fade away.....

[Jaga]

Yet, his unwillingness to step down at the end is also remembered. We don't know definitively if he was not entirely in good mental capacity, but many believe he was not, and that is a shame.

I believe this will pass in time, which may be a good reason not to start the process to sainthood faster then normal. Let some time pass, and the only real "grumble" will fade away.....

Piwo, I don't agree. There is not a shame for the pope not to step down. You know that he was considering it if incapacitated. What about Reagan? He also developed some mental problems before the end of his cadency and somehow nobody complains about it?

[piwo]

Piwo, I don't agree. There is not a shame for the pope not to step down. You know that he was considering it if incapacitated. What about Reagan? He also developed some mental problems before the end of his cadency and somehow nobody complains about it?

Well, I disagree with your last statement entirely. Those who were Ronald Regan detractors pointed to it vocally and often, and it actually came up in conversation here at work only a week or so ago. But for the most point now, it too has passed.

My point had nothing to do with shame for it or not Jaga, only that it is vivid in the memories of many and there were many who strongly believed he was not serving the church by staying on. If any of the people who have a voting say in this matter harbor those feelings, then it would not be a good thing, would it? I don't know if there are, I have no clue. I just believed if it was debated at the "water cooler" at work by Catholics and non-catholics alike, then maybe the people who decide on who is a Saint may have the same debate. I cannot say with any certainty at all.

We're on the same side as to the end game, I'm just not sure which method holds the best promise, not that I have a say in the matter anyway. If the best way to go is immediately, then I hope they start today!

[piwo]

Well, St. Stanislaus held their renegade Midnight Mass on Christmas Eve and drew at least 2,000 people, from a parish of only 400 according to the media that covered the mass. They filled the church (by 9:15PM), the next door History Center where they had close circuit TV, and were 3 deep out the door. TV and print news media covered it, and at least two instances of standing ovations for the new priest (or former priest) were reported. Father Marek, asked the congregation to leave the bad feelings and outside distractions out of the service and celebration of Christmas, and including in his request for prayers was for the Archbishop. I talked to 3 people who were at the mass, and they said it was moving.

Now, what I can’t find was how many people attended the “official” Polish church as set up by the Archbishop, St. Agatha I believe. I would have thought the media would have covered that angle.

[george]

Actually i think the saint process is kind of silly. People of this modern time know fully well that John Paul and Mother Theresa lived saintly lives. There has never been one instance of any of them having a question of their piety and good works. Now they have to go through a process where two people have to prove a miraculous healing of sort thru John Paul and Mother Theresa. Its not needed and the process is outdated and bizarre.
On the other hand, Padre Pio who was just made a saint was 50 years ago investigated by the Vatican for complaints he was , well lets just say was accused of taking liberties with some of the woman who confessed to him. The vatican investigated the charges and came up with this conclusion. The conclusion was that it was inconclusive. Thats Vaticanese translation for there was sufficient evidence of his misconduct. Beleive me, if they thought he was innocent they would have shouted it from the rooftops. The result was that they made him a saint. Now thats bizarre and political you might say.