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Post by pieter on Feb 14, 2009 12:35:26 GMT -7
Jaga and Tuftabis, There is no simple truth in the Middle east and I have to become to understand that most people choose sides. You are either Pro-Israeli or Pro-Palestinian. I have had the luck that I could get sources that showed me the Palestinian side from the first Gulf war in 1991, when I read in a Dutch quality Newspaper about the brutal opression of the Palestinians of the Westbank by the Israeli Army, Border police and secret service Shin Bet, often called Shabak. I spoke with people that have lived in Israel, idealistic Kibbutz student workers, professionals (for their job), as *olim who made Aliya; jews who immigrated to Israel, and both jews and non jews told me about the bad treatment of the Palestinians and the Israeli arabs. Many diaspora jews and Israeli's have an ethical innerconflict with themselves and the Israeli society they live in, because from a human, justice point of view they can not combine the occupation and discrimination with their personal values. In the same time the Israeli state and militairy doctrine has a defense strategy and mentality of superior ruthless strength and unity of them! There is a nationalistic pressure to support the Army and government policy unconditionally! Israeli's can't afford themselves to be weak, overtly-tolerant and to give in at negociations, because the Zionist Israeli doctrine says that Israel is under constant threat by it's Arabs neighbours, and that there is the inner threat of Israeli Muslim- and Christian Arabs, who form an Islamic and far left palestinian nationalist threat to the country. The tragedy of Israel is that fear and to a certain level hatred has settled itself in the hearts, souls and minds of the Jewish Israeli's who are constantly reminded of the Suicide bombings, rockets, stabbings, shootingattacks of the past! The education systems history lessons remembers the many heroic Patriotic wars and cherishes the Zionist heroes and martyrs. Religion, extreme nationalism and militarism are merged into one ideology, by the far right settlermovement and the **far right ultra-nationalist parties, whether they are religious or secular, like Yisrael Beitenu of Lieberman. The Israeli jews are as poralised as the Palestinians in the West-Bank and Gaza, only in times od war the Israeli's unity in majority with their leaders and so government. Israel is differant than other WEstern countries, because religion, the army and Nationalism play a bigger role there! Tuftabis, I agree with you that inside the Arab block and their backers, there are movements which aim to destruct what we call 'our civilization' or 'our way of life', 'our democracies', whatever the name. But I think that for us the extremist minority of radical Islamist muslims in our countries is bigger than the threat of Arab countries and the Arab parties and movements from the Middle east. The underground terror networks operate independantly over here. In the same time I do not believe that the Palestinians want to destroy the West or Israel, because they know that they will never be able to defeat Israel. They also have not the luxery to be bussy with to destruct what we call ' our civilization' or ' our way of life', ' our democracies', because every day is a day of struggle for servival. How do I get enough bread and food for my kids, is there sufficient water, did I get the right vegetables? In the same time we forget often in the West that on the other side of the Separation Fence (called the Apartheidswall by Free Palestine activists) there is ***bitter poverty and misery amongst the poor Israeli underclass (poor jews and arabs) too. A few hundred thousand kids have no meal every day. The Palestinian identity is growing and the Israeli identity is growing too! More and more Israeli's will be first generation Israeli's instaid of immigrants from Europe, Russia, America or Africa. This new generation Israeli's realise that they are living in an Arab environment and that they have to make peace with enemies and live together with Arab compatriots who themselves have grown into an Israeli-Arab identity. Hebrew speaking Arabs with an Israeli passport! In my view the biggest threat towards both the Israeli and the Palestinian state is the existance and growth of the extremist forces on both sides. We know the threat of the Iranian backed Hamas, who attacks Israel, Fatah members and other Palestinian dissidents (independants), the Islamic Jihad extremists and the extremist wing of Fatah of the ultra-Nationalist and radical Al Aqsa Martyr Brigades of Fatah (out of control of the Fatah leadership, and cooperating and siding with Hamas and Islamic Jihad militants and suicide bombers). I believe that Palestinians are entitled to riot against the Israeli Militairy and police who opresses them and take up arms agianst there occupiers in the occupied territories. But I am against suicide bombings, attacks on Israeli civilians and the Islamist, Ultra-Nationalist and far left extremist ideologies of these parties. I have no clear knowledge if the Israeli's or the Americans can trust the Fatah leadership on the long term, but I am sure that behind the curtains, out of reach of the international media's camera's, microphones, blogs, written press and political negociations and diplomacy (multi-lateral and bilateral) there are secret negociations between Israel and Hamas in Cairo or Aman. Possibly by middle men, third party messengers who have connections with both camps. Peace or ceasefire you can only reach with your enemy, not with your friends or allies! Pieter *http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/129725 ** www.leumi.org.il/english/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=6574&Itemid= / en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Union_(Israel) / www.beytenu.org/***http://www.israelnewsagency.com/israelpovertychildrenyomkippur4831210.html See Also Israeli politics and movements:Labour: (Henrew) Watch the language of the images: www.havoda.org.il/14-he/Party.aspxLikud: en.netanyahu.org.il/ Likud (lit. Consolidation) is the major right-wing political party in Israel. Kadima: www.kadima.org.il/ (Centre party of ex-Likudniks and Labour politicians) Meretz: www.myparty.org.il/pics/langs/4.pdf (a left-wing social democratic political party in Israel.) Shas: www.knesset.gov.il/faction/eng/FactionPage_eng.asp?PG=2 (Shas is a political party in Israel, primarily representing Haredi Sephardi and Mizrahi Judaism.) National Religious Fractions: Meet Israeli Nationalist Leader, Dr. Aryeh Eldad Pt 1 of 2Jerusalem Mayoral Candidate Porush Says More Har A message to the Jewish people and the entire world"Jewish Enough" - Jewish Reconnection Project
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Post by Jaga on Feb 14, 2009 12:52:32 GMT -7
Jaga the opposite is true also: THERE ARE MANY PALESTINIANS WHO BELIEVE THAT THE WHOLE TERRITORY OF ISRAEL SHOULD BE PALESTINE AND JEWS SHOULD EITHER DIE OR GO AWAY. Pieter, you are right. But my response was for Tufta claim that ONLY Palestinians are against Israel but Israel is only good and wants all the good for Palestinians. Just like you said the extremists are on both sides. Both sides would like to destroy each otherThe problem is that Israel has power, money and influence and Palestine does not.
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Post by pieter on Feb 14, 2009 13:25:25 GMT -7
Jaga,
Yes, you are right partly, but in the same time the situation is changing in favor of the Palestinians! Like Tuftabis rightly said the policy of the new American administration will shift towards an European sort o foreign policy which will look more towards both sides interests instaid of a one sided automatical Pro-Israel stance!
A lot of people have begun or become to understand the Palestininan position and situation, next to the Israeli standpoint and perspective! You are for instance part of the Moderate Pro-Palestinian camp, and Tuftabis, Jim and others are Pro-Israel.
I am neither of the two, because I want to examine both sides, and to understand the Israeli persective, the Palestinian perspective, the Lebanese, Egyptian and Jordanian perspective, the Syrian perspective and the position of my continent (Europe), America and Russia on the issue. Next to that I am interested in the opinions and views of Saudi Arabia, Iran, Turkey (a critical allie of Israel) and Iraq. Iraq for instance is slowly becomming a normal country again and also will take a position on Israel and the Palestinians in the near future!
Pieter
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Post by tuftabis on Feb 14, 2009 13:49:41 GMT -7
Pieter, I can see you are trying to maintian an intellectually honest stance. That is very good. But if you want to remain intellectually honest to the depth of your soul you will have to (just for yourself) choose sides as well. As to Palestinian people - I have written it already - they are double victims. They are a tool in the hands of those who do wish to destroy Israel and the staus quo. Those are basically - or financially! the same as the extremist minority of radical Islamist muslims in ie. Holland. The variety of views about the conflict - very true in Israel, where there's a free liberal democracy. In their opponents - peaceful or cohabitations views are often looked upon as a betrayal.
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Post by tuftabis on Feb 14, 2009 13:53:06 GMT -7
But my response was for Tufta claim that ONLY Palestinians are against Israel but Israel is only good and wants all the good for Palestinians. I have never said anything like that.
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Post by Jaga on Feb 14, 2009 14:19:53 GMT -7
But my response was for Tufta claim that ONLY Palestinians are against Israel but Israel is only good and wants all the good for Palestinians. I have never said anything like that. Tufta, yes, you did not say this so blantly (just wanted to check whether you read me ) but you implied that Palestinians are more guilty than Israelis. Somehow you also implied that Chechens taking kids as prisoners and killing them is better than what Palestinians do. We do not have statistics from Russia, how many Chechens did Russians killed. We know that during last 10 years Palestinians were mainly victims and only very few Israelis were killed by Palestinians. If you do not believe me I will find a statistics. I feel for Chechens, but they need to get smarter and less cruel. I also feel for Palestinians, they also need to get smarter, so that ISrael would not be able to use any pretext for the next war. Just like Russia, so Israel is ugly and cruel occupant. By the way, do you remember what started the war with Lebanon where 1200 people were dead? There were two kidnapped Israeli soldiers..... if you do not believe check it here: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Lebanon_War
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Post by pieter on Feb 14, 2009 14:47:13 GMT -7
Just like you said the extremists are on both sides. Both sides would like to destroy each other But there are also reasonable Israeli's and Palestinians who just want to live in peace and harmony and see eachother as human beings instaid of 'beests', a cancerous growth or vermin. There might be a silent majority who see the suffering on it's own side and the suffering of the other. Like the Israeli's who saw the suffering of the Palestinian doctor who lost his three daughers in Gaza, which was aired live on the Israeli television.The Palestinian received signs of compassion of Israeli's who send him condolance cards, letters and e-mails. Palestinians and Israeli's know that there has to come an end to the bloodshed, hatred and fear. Israeli's and Palestinians have to meet eachother to change the image of the other! The Wall won't go away, the Israeli policy will not change overnight, and Palestinian refugees will never be able to return to Israel. Painful consessions must be made on both sides to reach a long term sustainable peace and a stabile and just treaty between the parties. Economical ties and cooperation has to restructed, development has to be started, Palestinian workers must be able to work in Israel again (like in the past when thousands and thousands of Palestinians worked inside Israel), an Israeli entrepreneurs must be able to invest in Israeli-Palestinian joynt-ventures in the West-bank and Gaza. If the Palestinians benefit from Israeli-Palestinian financial- economical cooperation, than they will alow Israeli entrepreneurs, businessmen and employers to invest in Palestine and Palestinian human capital. The Israeli economy could use Palestinian human capital and investments in a shared future too! You have a lot of *Palestinian millionaires and billionaires in the region. Guys with interests in Real eastate projects, Gulf Arab oil companies, trade, press/media and transport! The Israeli-Arabs can be mediators between Israel and the Arab world, because they are bi-lingual and bi-cultural, Hebrew-Arab, Israeli-Palestinian! * www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/924666.htmlnews.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4530206.stmMustafa Barghouti on Israel Elections www.thewashingtonnote.com/archives/2009/02/mustafa_barghou/Pieter
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Post by Jaga on Feb 14, 2009 23:17:12 GMT -7
Hi Pieter,
+++But there are also reasonable Israeli's and Palestinians who just want to live in peace and harmony and see eachother as human beings instaid of 'beests', a cancerous growth or vermin. +++
yes, sure. The problem is that the Israeli government does not consists of moderates but the hard-liners, some of them do not even want two state solution.
Here is a short but good report on media bias in the US compared to GB:
Media bias about the Israeli - Palestine conflict
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Post by pieter on Feb 15, 2009 17:40:43 GMT -7
Pieter, I can see you are trying to maintian an intellectually honest stance. That is very good. But if you want to remain intellectually honest to the depth of your soul you will have to (just for yourself) choose sides as well. As to Palestinian people - I have written it already - they are double victims. They are a tool in the hands of those who do wish to destroy Israel and the staus quo. Those are basically - or financially! the same as the extremist minority of radical Islamist muslims in ie. Holland. The variety of views about the conflict - very true in Israel, where there's a free liberal democracy. In their opponents - peaceful or cohabitations views are often looked upon as a betrayal. Tuftabis, You are right that I am trying to maintian an intellectually honest stance, because I am trying to understand the situation over there for almost three decades now. I confess that I started as a Pro-Israeli kid, as a teenager interested in history, foreign affairs, ideologies, Geopolitics, strategic thinking of leaders and politicians and movements and countries. I admired the Israeli's that they maintained themselves in a hostile environment, winning many wars. So my fundament is interest in Israel, Irsaeli politics, Israeli history, Israeli militairy strategies, and the roots Israel has in Diaspora Judaism (especially Polish and Russian Judaism). So it has also roots in the Polish history, where Zionist history is part of due to the existance of the Zionist party Polai Zion in the Poland of the twenties and thirties of the 20th century, in contrast or opposition with the Non-Zionist Polish-jewish Bund party. So I had chosen sides, and that was the Israeli side. I did'nt like Arabs or Palestinians particulary, like many Europeans and Americans. I saw the fanatism, extremism and terrorism on my television and read about it in my newspapers and magazines! But I saw one side only, the Israeli side, the Palestinian side was not portayed well in that period, because the Palestinian voice and media were unknown here. It is very important that due to Jewish websites, Forums and the Israeli Haaretz newspaper I got to know the other side! On a Dutch Jewish Forum I followed very interesting and fierce debates between Pro-Israeli Dutch Diaspora jews and rightwing Israeli's (of Dutch decent) on one side and "dissident" critical leftwing and religious jews on the other side. In the first Gulf war of 1991 I started to understand the opression of the Palestinians due to articles in the Dutch newspaper De Volkskrant of that time. In 1989 I saw Israeli soldiers braking Palestinian bones on the Westbank at the order of the Israeli minister of defense Jitzak Rabin. In the Ninetees and early this century I started reading reports of Palestinian writers, journalists and human rights activists. I stil watch the situation from an Israeli perspective, but with a critical view from critical Israeli's, critical Diaspora jews and critical non-jews in Europe and America. I witnessed the Jewish "internal" Jewish-jewish debate, and saw how difficult some jews had and have with the official Zionist ideology, system and propaganda. The critical jews opened my eyes, together with Dutch Middle-east correspondents who were stationed in Israel. Slowly my vision and thought about Israel, Zionism and Judaism started to change. Before that awareness I was sure that Zionism and Judaism were the same, after my awakening I started to see that there were and are anti-Zionist religious jews (orthodox jews), non-zionist secular jews (socialists, liberals and conservatives) and non-zionist jews who stood neutral to the Middle east, or just weren't interested in Israel! In the Netherlands, France or Belgium, the rioting Migrant youth from Marocco and Algeria look the same as the youth who threw rocks at the Israeli militairy and Border police during the first and second Intifada. They however look not the same as the disciplined and bearded militiamen from Hamas, Fatah and Islamic Jihad. The minority of exremist islamist muslim youngsters are more linked to the Al Qaida cells and Salafist Algerian groups, both directly linked to the Ultra-conservative and Ultra-Orthodox and reactionairy Wahabist islam of Saudi Arabia and Yemen (where Bin Laden's family came from), then the Modern looking Hamas and Fatah guys from Palestine. Hamas is supported by Al Qaida's arch rival and enemy the Shia Iran. The possible Al Qaida cells in Gaza or the Westbank will be oponents of Hamas. Pieter
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Post by tuftabis on Feb 16, 2009 4:34:34 GMT -7
You are right that I am trying to maintian an intellectually honest stance, because I am trying to understand the situation over there for almost three decades now. Pieter, I understand your stance. What is more I share your views in large part. I don't back unconditionally anyone, not even my own country policies, but my sympathy is with a demcoratic country which has roots in my culture (or the other way). I too started to become interested in worldwide international situation some 30 years ago, around years 1976-8. Until that time I had basic idea about the world only. It was so easy, black and white. The Russians were occupants and Mongol invaders. The Germans were even worse. The French were traitors but still they were okey. Somehow UK escaped that bad name, and was almost as great as the USA. Poles and Poland were a constant source of pride only and almost the angels. Poland was a country occupied by Soviet Russia, which strongly backed the Arabs, including Palestinians , against Israel. But the real enemy Russians wanted to hit this way was US. So officially Palestinians were our friends and Israel were „jews” in a specific demeaning meaning (the 1968 year communist in-party fighting memento), imperialists and enemies. While at homes (at least those homes who were free of anti-semitism, and free of communist carieerists) when Israel won one war after another people were glad that 'our Jews' beat the hell out of 'Russki's Arabs'. In 1979 I met some of those „Ruski's Arabs' in person. They were at the same university as I was in Warsaw – countries of Soviet Russian block were obliged to accept Palestinian students. One of them became a member of a pack of my friends. Some of which were the descendants of Polish Jews. We talked a lot, you know these kind of all-night talks when youre twenty. The world which was already loosing its comfortable black and whiteness beforehand, suddenly became complicated, uncomfortable, challenging intellectually so to say. In the following years to come I have noticed the real beauty in the complicated, mostly grey world, but that was later. So that is my way to present standpoint I depict in reply and as a thank you for your fine presentation.
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Post by tuftabis on Feb 16, 2009 4:45:48 GMT -7
you implied that Palestinians are more guilty than Israelis. Somehow you also implied that Chechens taking kids as prisoners and killing them is better than what Palestinians do. I have never said or implied neither. I have repeated at least twice the Palestinian people are the double victims. I have pointed out that act of terror in Beslan was performed by 'inedependent warlord' (qualification primarily used by yourself) and in a situation when Chechen nation's other, actual, non-terrorist, sensible leaders, use a word you like the most, were already killed by the Russians. Btw. a method used by both Russians and Germans against Poles, but to no avail – kill the leaders, the intelligentsia, the specialsts, professionals, priests, teachers, doctors first. Have you notices any of such killing-policy in the Middle East? Let's have a look at the two ugly and cruel occupants you compare, together with their enemies in respective conflicts Israel and the Arab world Russia and Chechenya upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/05/RussiaChechnya2007-01.pngupload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/05/RussiaChechnya2007-01.png"] Chechenya is the red dot in the South-Western part of Russia. Chechenya and Israel are of comparable size, with Chechenya slightly smaller. Each country would fit into Lake Michigan.
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Post by Jaga on Feb 16, 2009 11:41:20 GMT -7
Tufta, you try to make the comparison between Arab hostile world versus Israel and Russia versus Chechnya. If you compare the size of gaza to the size of Israel = it is like 1/60 to 1. When Israel was attacked or invaded by any Arab country? Unfortunately it is Israel who stirs wars with their neighbors. They started a war with Lebanon and with Gaza (which is their interir prisoner). They also want to attack Iran. Gaza is with Israel after Israel stripped Gaza from Egypt in 1968. Is it legal to grab a land from a foreign country even if you are a democracy? Referring to size comparison. Idaho state where I live could have 10 counties of the size of Israel. But it could have 600 Gaza strip. Gaza strip is as small as 1/60 of Israel and it is as densely populated as Boston.So, if Israel announces that it is going to treat one part of Gaza as military zone (and kill there anybody who moves) these people have no place to go and then Israel l egally can kill them Nazi Germany also legally killed many Jews during WW II, just like Stalin's SU legally killed millions of their citizens. It is easy to do things legally, just change some laws and made them unhuman. Just one more question. Do you think that it hurt less and it is more justified to be killed by a Democratic country? Israel killes 1300 people, many civilians and kids. By the way only 10 Israeli soldiers were killed, some in crosswire so this was not war of the equal. Here is a story of a doctor who was telling Israeli radio about life in Gaza. He lost his daughters who were killed at their house, when the soldiers saw them moving. EACH MOVING TARGET IS A POTENTIAL TERRORIST. TEL HASHOMER, Israel - For days, Dr. Izzeldin Abuelaish, a physician from the Gaza Strip, was a voice from the war zone, telling Israeli radio and television stations in fluent Hebrew about life under fire as Israeli troops pursued a ground offensive against Hamas. On Friday the unspeakable happened. An Israeli shell hit a room where the doctor's daughters were gathered, killing three of them and a cousin. His broken voice brought the tragedy into Israeli living rooms. "They killed my daughters," he sobbed over a cell phone after the strike, his agony broadcast live on Channel Ten television. Israeli medics were dispatched to evacuate the doctor along with a wounded brother, daughter and niece to the Sheba Medical Center near Tel Aviv. A father of eight and a widower, Abuelaish stayed with his children, his brothers and their families — 25 people in all — in a five-story building in the town of Jabalya, even as neighbors fled to escape the fighting. "Where to leave?" he said in an interview at the hospital on Saturday. "No place is secure in Gaza, not mosques, not schools." The family hunkered down in a virtual no-man's land. "No one could approach the place," he said. "We couldn't go outside because we were scared they would shoot at us. No water, no electricity, no gas, no phone. I charged my mobile phone from a radio battery." "I tried to keep my children away from the windows, in the living room, sleeping on mattresses, dividing them up," he said, so they would not be a risk in the same place. When an Israeli tank appeared in the area one day, Abuelaish called his Israeli media contacts and an Israeli liaison officer he knew, and the tank moved on. On Friday afternoon the family gathered for lunch, cooked on a kerosene stove by the doctor's oldest daughter, Bisan, 20. She had become "a mother to my children after I lost my wife" to leukemia in September, Abuelaish said. www.chicagotribune.com/news/chi-gaza-doctorjan18,0,1925825.story
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Post by Jaga on Feb 16, 2009 11:45:51 GMT -7
Bisan, a senior at Gaza's Islamic University, where she was studying business and finance, had met Israelis at the Creativity for Peace camp in New Mexico, which promotes reconciliation among Palestinian and Israeli teenage girls, the doctor said. He added that another of his daughters received calls during the Gaza fighting from concerned Israeli friends she had met at the camp.
After lunch, the doctor's daughters and two cousins went to the girls' bedroom. Abuelaish played with a son, hoisting him on his shoulders.
"I found my daughters in pieces," he said. Bisan had been thrown from a bed to the floor. Mayar, 15, and Aya,, 14, were also dead, along with Noor, a 17-year-old cousin. Shatha, 17, who was wounded in the eye, was a straight-A student, and had plans to continue her studies abroad, her father said. "They killed their dreams," he added.
The Israeli army said it was investigating, and that an initial inquiry showed that "soldiers were apparently fired upon" from the doctor's building "or its vicinity."
Abuelaish insisted that there were no Hamas fighters in the area, and that he would not have allowed any militants near his home.
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Post by Jaga on Feb 16, 2009 11:49:07 GMT -7
Tufta,
how you can build the peace if Israeli government is so paranoid about everybody being a potential terrorist and enemy and treats Palestinians like warms?
This doctor was working to cure Israeli soldiers. Here is his plea:
captions are in English
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Post by freetobe on Feb 16, 2009 18:55:44 GMT -7
Jaga, Isn't it about time you started looking at the other side? Most posts on the Arab/Israeli struggle are reasonable and not flaming. Yours are more like rants. It's your site and you will do what you want with the forum. The issue is "Why nobody posts?" Aside from two members and your self, the rest may not care to participate in your continuing vitriolic attacks on the American media. Your belief in the condemnation of media reports by the American intelligentsia. You try looking at both sides of the dispute and see what you can come up with? So far nothing but the same old same old. That's why people don't post.
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