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Post by pieter on Feb 16, 2009 19:28:28 GMT -7
Hi Pieter, +++But there are also reasonable Israeli's and Palestinians who just want to live in peace and harmony and see eachother as human beings instaid of 'beests', a cancerous growth or vermin. +++ yes, sure. The problem is that the Israeli government does not consists of moderates but the hard-liners, some of them do not even want two state solution. Here is a short but good report on media bias in the US compared to GB: Media bias about the Israeli - Palestine conflict Jaga, Unfortunately you are right, because in Israel politics right from the Middle dominates, not centre-right, but rightwing and far right parties, movements and politicians. Kadima and Labour party ministers and leaders are as tough and warhungry as Netanjahu and Lieber-man. As I said before Israel in my view has the right to retaliate to Palestinian terror, by proportunate actions. If a terrost act like a suicide bombing, shooting accident or stabbing kills Israeli citizens the Israeli attorney general and police have to investigate such a case as a political criminal offence or hate crime and and persecute the culprit. Not bombing neighbour-hoods, appartmentblocks where the "political criminal" (terrorist) is hidden, but go to the place where the leader, militants or extremists are capture or eliminate the enemy without killing innocent civlians or even familymembers of the culprit. As I said before Israel has exellent special forces, police units or secret services like Shin Beth (Shabak) or Mossad the who can carry out these tasks. From the other hand Israel has to change it's policy towards the Palestinian people (civilians), society, authorities, movements and desire for independance. If Israel makes the life of Palestinian barable, give them more authonomy, give them means of living (a stabile and florishing economy), freedom of movement, and the possibilities to develop themselves the attitude of the Palestinians towards the Israeli's will change too. They will choose less for extreme forces like Hamas, Islamic Jihad, the extremist wing of Fatah (Al Aqsa Martyr Brigades) or the far left and Nationalist PFLP. The jews for the first time in 2000 years have their own land, democracy, army, economy, education system, farmlands and national language and culture in their own homeland. Because the state is very young it has had the troubles other states had earlier, which means territorial wars, ethnical conflicts with ethnical clensing, intolerance towards the other people, Nationalistic feelings (extreme Patriotism), the fundament of religious and cultural roots which destinguish them from their (Arab) environment. We had that earlier in Europe and other parts of the world, thousands and hundreds of years ago. The creation of every nation was paved with bloodsheds, war about land and a Migration Period (also called Barbarian Invasions or Völkerwanderung [German]) or "wandering of the peoples". Nationalism, ethnic and religious culture, peoples solidarity (Jewish Unity, a jew stands in the defense of another jew), collectivism (working and developping the land in a mythical connection or bond with the soil; the kibbutzim and moshavim; cooperative agricultural communities), religious practise in the lands of the forefathers and prophets made Israel a sacred, holy place for many jews. Many of them thought Israel was the work of God who let the Jews return to the land of their roots, the tenach, Torah and the Temple. The army unified the people, because every man and woman had to serve in the "Defense Army". Migrants learned Hebrew, the Israeli customs and society in the social context of militairy service in the Tsahal (Israeli Defense Forces that came out of the Haganah, palmach and Irgun forces of the Yishuv, the body of Jewish residents in the Holy Land before the establishment of the State of Israel. Zionism was not established or shaped in Israel or the Palestine which existed before the establishment of Israel, Zionism was created in Austria, Germany, Russia, Poland, Lithuania, The modern movement was mainly founded by secular Jews, beginning largely as a response by European Jewry to antisemitism across Europe. It is a branch of the broader phenomenon of modern nationalism. Initially one of several Jewish political movements offering alternative responses to assimilation and the position of Jews in Europe, Zionism grew rapidly following knowledge of the Holocaust and became the dominant power among Jewish political movements. Over the years a variety of schools of thought have evolved with different schools dominating at different times. In addition Zionists come from a wide variety of ethnic groups and at different times Jews of Russian, Polish, American or Moroccan backgrounds have exercised strong influence on the movement's agenda. Was Zionism in the beginning first mainly a secular, European socialist branch of cultural nationalism, with Jewish socialist pioneers who went to Palestine with an enormous amount of idealism, energy, strength and optimism, it later developped into a more rightwing nationalistic and religious movement, due to clashes with Arabs and British rulers, guerilla warfare, civil disobediance, a series of wars, terror and counterterror and the harshness of living and building a new state! 19th century Nationalism and colonialism had it's influence on Zionism. The New German state and it's Nationalism in the 19th century inspired Zionism, which got's it's inspiration from that European nationalism. Today's Israel is different from the Jishuv, because in the Jishuv the European Ashkenazi jews stil dominated, while in the Israel of today the Israeli Judaism is very multi-cultural, multi-ethnic and global, from European Judaism, to Arab- and African Judaism. The merging of these different types of Judaism create a new people, which are the today Israeli's, whom are a mix of Ashkenazim and Sefardim, and the Arab Mizrachi and African Falasha jews. Not only Israeli arabs are discriminated against, also oriental looking Middle Eastern jews are discriminated, because they often look the same as Arabs. Israel and Palestine are complicated countries with complex societies with differant socio-cultural circumstances, life standards, living conditions, mentalities, states of progress and development. Due to a sort of national, economical and social-cultural segregation the Israeli's are advanced if you compare them to the Palestinians. The Israeli's are rich, have a prosporous economy, a well functionating democracy, and freedom of speech, gathering, movement, expression, Life stance and opinion, while the Palestinians in both Gaza and the Westbank live in dictatorships! Pieter |
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Post by pieter on Feb 16, 2009 19:32:53 GMT -7
Zionism in Poland in the early 20 century
By the late 1800s, Haskalah (Jewish enlightenment) and the debates it caused created a growing number of political movements within the Jewish community itself, covering a wide range of views and vying for votes in local and regional elections. Zionism became very popular with the advent of the Poale Zion socialist party as well as the religious Polish Mizrahi, and the increasingly popular General Zionists. Jews also took up socialism, forming the Bund labor union which supported assimilation and the rights of labor. The Folkspartei (People's Party) advocated for its part cultural autonomy and resistance to assimilation. In 1912, Agudat Israel, a religious party, came into existence.
Since Jews were discriminated against by the Russians, many Jews decided to become involved in the Polish anti-Russian insurrections, including Kościuszko Insurrection, January Insurrection (1863) and Revolutionary Movement of 1905.
In 1897, 14% of Polish citizens were Jewish. Jews were represented in government, municipal councils and in Jewish religious communities. Jews developed many political parties and associations, ranging in ideologies from Zionist to socialist to anti-Zionist. The Bund, a socialist party, spread throughout Poland in the early 20th century. Many Jewish workers in Warsaw and Lodz joined the Bund.
In 1914, the German Zionist Max Bodenheimer founded the short-lived German Committee for Freeing of Russian Jews, with the goal of establishing a buffer state (Pufferstaat) within the Jewish Pale of Settlement, composed of the former Polish provinces annexed by Russia, being de facto protectorate of the German Empire that would free Jews in the region from Russian oppression. The plan, known as Judeopolonia, soon proved unpopular with both German officials and Bodenheimer's colleagues, and was dead by the following year.
Zionism also became popular among Polish Jews, who formed the Poale Zion. The Folkists (People's Party) supported assimilation and trade unions. The Polish Mizrahi, a Zionist orthodox political party, had a large following. General Zionists became popular in the inter-war period. In the 1919 election of the Sejm, the General Zionists received 50 percent of the votes for Jewish parties.
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Post by pieter on Feb 16, 2009 19:49:20 GMT -7
Jewish and Polish culture during the Interbellum (1919-1939)
Jewish youth and religious groups, diverse political parties and Zionist organizations, newspapers and theatre flourished. In addition to small businesses, Jews owned real estate and export and manufacturing enterprises. Religious practices ranged from Hasidism to modern "Progressive" Judaism. Most Warsaw Jews spoke Yiddish, but Polish was increasingly used by the young who did not have a problem in identifying themselves fully as Jews, Warsavians and Poles. Polish Jews, such as Bruno Schulz, were entering the mainstream of Polish society, though many thought of themselves as a separate nationality within Poland. More than half the Jewish children attended special Jewish schools. Enrollment in religious school, in turn, discouraged mastery of the Polish language. Thus, in answer to a 1931 census inquiry, the overwhelming majority of Jews mentioned Yiddish as their native tongue (79 per cent) and only 12 percent gave Polish as their first language. The rest chose Hebrew. (In contrast, the overwhelming majority of German-born Jews of this period spoke German as their first language.) During the school year of 1937–1938 there were 226 elementary schools and twelve high schools as well as fourteen vocational schools with either Yiddish or Hebrew as the instructional language. The YIVO (Jidiszer Wissenszaftlecher Institute) Scientific Institute was based in Wilno before transferring to New York during the war. Jewish political parties, both the Socialist General Jewish Labor Union (The Bund), as well as parties of the Zionist right and left wing and religious conservative movements, were represented in the Sejm (the Polish Parliament) as well as in the regional councils.
Postwar
Soon after the end of the Second World War, Jews began to leave Poland. The exodus took place in stages and the vast majority of survivors left for various reasons, often more than one. Many left simply because they did not want to live in a communist country. Some left because the refusal of the communist regime to return prewar property. Others did not wish to rebuild their lives in the places where their families were murdered. Yet others wanted to go to British Mandate of Palestine, which soon became Israel. Some of the survivors had relatives abroad.
Between 1945 and 1948, 100,000–120,000 Jews left Poland. Their departure was largely organized by the Zionist activists in Poland such as Adolf Berman and Icchak Cukierman under the umbrella of a semi-clandestine organization Berihah ("Flight"). Berihah was also responsible for the organized emigration of Jews from Romania, Hungary, Czechoslovakia, and Yugoslavia totaling 250,000 (including Poland) Holocaust survivors. A second wave of Jewish emigration (50,000) took place during the liberalization of the communist regime between 1957 and 1959. The last mass migration of Jews from Poland took place in 1968-69, after Israel's 1967 War, because of the anti-Jewish policy adopted by Polish communist party, which closed down Jewish youth camps, schools and clubs. One might call this event as an expulsion of Jews of 1968. Thereafter almost all Jews who decided to stay in Poland "stopped" being Jewish.
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Post by pieter on Feb 16, 2009 20:14:09 GMT -7
List of Polish Jews
Historical figures
Politicians
Menachem Begin (1913-1992), Israeli prime minister (born in Poland)
David Ben-Gurion (1886-1973), Israeli prime minister (born in Poland)
Yohanan Cohen (b. 1917), Israeli politician
Abba Hushi (1898-1969), Israeli politician
Shimon Peres (b. 1923), Israeli prime minister and president, Nobel Prize laureate (1994)
Arthur Ruppin (1876-1943), Zionist thinker and politician
Yitzhak Shamir (b. 1915), Israeli prime minister (born in Poland)
Shevah Weiss (b. 1935), Israeli politician, a speaker of the Knesset
Yitzhak Arad (b. 1926), partisan combat, historian, Israeli general
David Ben-Gurion (1886-1973), Jewish Legion
Avraham Stern (1907-1942), the founder and leader of the Zionist underground organization Lehi
Gideon Hausner (1915-1990), Israeli jurist
Religious figures
Zevi Hirsch Kalischer (1795-1874), rabbi & Zionist pioneer
Israel Meir Lau (b. 1937), the Israeli Ashkenazi Chief Rabbi (1993-2003)
Academics
Scientists
Social sciences
Avraham Stern, famous Zionist
Historians
Jacob Talmon, Israeli historian
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Post by pieter on Feb 16, 2009 20:54:51 GMT -7
You are right that I am trying to maintian an intellectually honest stance, because I am trying to understand the situation over there for almost three decades now. Pieter, I understand your stance. What is more I share your views in large part. I don't back unconditionally anyone, not even my own country policies, but my sympathy is with a demcoratic country which has roots in my culture (or the other way). I too started to become interested in worldwide international situation some 30 years ago, around years 1976-8. Until that time I had basic idea about the world only. It was so easy, black and white. The Russians were occupants and Mongol invaders. The Germans were even worse. The French were traitors but still they were okey. Somehow UK escaped that bad name, and was almost as great as the USA. Poles and Poland were a constant source of pride only and almost the angels. Poland was a country occupied by Soviet Russia, which strongly backed the Arabs, including Palestinians , against Israel. But the real enemy Russians wanted to hit this way was US. So officially Palestinians were our friends and Israel were „jews” in a specific demeaning meaning (the 1968 year communist in-party fighting memento), imperialists and enemies. While at homes (at least those homes who were free of anti-semitism, and free of communist carieerists) when Israel won one war after another people were glad that 'our Jews' beat the hell out of 'Russki's Arabs'. In 1979 I met some of those „Ruski's Arabs' in person. They were at the same university as I was in Warsaw – countries of Soviet Russian block were obliged to accept Palestinian students. One of them became a member of a pack of my friends. Some of which were the descendants of Polish Jews. We talked a lot, you know these kind of all-night talks when youre twenty. The world which was already loosing its comfortable black and whiteness beforehand, suddenly became complicated, uncomfortable, challenging intellectually so to say. In the following years to come I have noticed the real beauty in the complicated, mostly grey world, but that was later. So that is my way to present standpoint I depict in reply and as a thank you for your fine presentation. Tuftabis, It's great that due to your study time you was able to meet Palestinians and Polish jews and therefor get an impression of these people. How was it to meet some of those „Ruski's Arabs' in person in 1979. How was the Palestinian student who became a member of a pack of your friends. How did the Polish Jews respond to or coomunicate with the Palestinian friend or fellow student? You talked a lot about what? I am really interested in that Tuftabis, because real connections between people, human converstation and exchange of ideas is the most interesting thing there is for me. Maybe I can learn something from your experiance with them. I had these kind of all-night talks whith Russian friends in Amsterdam, French girlfriends in Oxford during a summer course there in 1989, Danish friends in France during a summer course in Montpellier in 1990 or later during my study in Arnhem in nightpubs and student homes, yes! It's good that your world lost its comfortable black and whiteness beforehand, because the truth lies inbetween things in investing differant opinions and sides and after a while finding a truth that often lays between the tow sides! Yes, it can take some years to notice the real beauty in the complicated, mostly grey world. Pieter |
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Post by tuftabis on Feb 18, 2009 4:43:49 GMT -7
Tufta, you try to make the comparison between Arab hostile world versus Israel and Russia versus Chechnya. If you compare the size of gaza to the size of Israel = it is like 1/60 to 1. Jaga, if you want to compare size of Gaza strip against Israel, you should compare Russia versus the size of school in Beslan in that conflict, not against the whole big and powerful Chechenya. |
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Post by tuftabis on Feb 18, 2009 4:48:00 GMT -7
You talked a lot about what? We talked about everything buy since we are now talking about the Israeli - Arab conflict, I was referring to that. The talks were even more inspiring at that time since we have had some students from US (Polonia) and Russia as well. But the latter were quickly evacuated home after the Solidarity appeared on the stage. |
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Post by tuftabis on Feb 18, 2009 5:04:00 GMT -7
Pieter, it is sometimes a very delicate matter to distinguish "Polish Jews" out of Poles. Most of Poles of Jewish descent feel as Polish as anyone, and find it sometimes irritating that they are sort of 'reminded' that in the long past past one or more of their ancestors assimilated into Polish culture and often religion. This reminds German Nurnberg laws - checking back into third generation to call someone 'not a Jew'. On the other hand there are of course Poles who underline their Jewishness. They are Poles and Jews simultaneosly, just as some Poles are simulateneously German (in Opole region) or Belarusian (in Bialystok region) or Lithuanian (in Suwałki region) etc. To make this thread 'why nobody post'  even more colourful here's a history oh a song - the title of the song is "Rebeka" . Here what a youtuber jurek46pink, who put it up on youtube says about it Still I would call it Old Polish Tango although it is -- in text and music -- so Jewish. There were many songs composed in Poland in pre-war time meant for audience speaking Polish language, regardless their roots or ancestry. Some of them were picturing people, their habits and customs, according to Jewish tradition; no wonder, there were more than 3 millions Jews in the country on Vistula river.
Tango 'Rebeka' is not the only example of the kind, although seems to be the most popular: story of a poor girl, shop attendant in a small town, where one day a handsome and rich gentleman from 'great world', passing by, asks her for 'Ergo' product. She will not forget this visit and the image of 'the prince' -- as a love at first sight -- will haunt her all her life.
Before the war, a full text version was recorded only by Zofia Terné (1932). After the war the tango-song became a Polish standard recollecting times "when Jews were among us". Sung by such interpreters as Wanda Warska, Elżbieta Kępińska, Ewa Demarczyk, Sława Przybylska and many, many others. So there we go, Rebecca by Zofia Terne, A.D. 1932 by Ewa Demarczyk, 1982 and a contemporary version I'm sure you will like the most by by Nina Stiller (Gajewska). The Yiddish text by Robert Stiller has been based on original Polish version |
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Post by Jaga on Feb 19, 2009 11:14:28 GMT -7
Jaga, if you want to compare size of Gaza strip against Israel, you should compare Russia versus the size of school in Beslan in that conflict, not against the whole big and powerful Chechenya. Tuifta, I do not understand why to compare the size of Russia versus school in Beslan. Do not forget that the civilized and democratic government of Israel treats Palestinians as subhuman and disposable, since killin 1300 is nothing! But killing 3 Israeli caused the war, so the value of one Israeli human is like 100 Palestinians. Israel gets the most foreign help from the US. You know how they spend this help? To buy their military equipment to do wars in Lebanon, Gaza and even... Iran if they could. Does not remind you this a politics of Nazi Germany when they caegorized people to the worse and better categories? |
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Post by pieter on Feb 19, 2009 18:46:28 GMT -7
You talked a lot about what? We talked about everything buy since we are now talking about the Israeli - Arab conflict, I was referring to that. The talks were even more inspiring at that time since we have had some students from US (Polonia) and Russia as well. But the latter were quickly evacuated home after the Solidarity appeared on the stage. Tuftabis, Maybe you know me a little bit! I am interested in Polish history from the Polish nobility, chlatchtza to the Magnata, the Polish kings, the Polish–Lithuanian Commonwealth (one of the largest and most populous countries in 16th and 17th-century Europe, formed by a union of Kingdom of Poland and Grand Duchy of Lithuania in 1569), the partititions (between Prussia, the Austrian-Hungarian Habsburg empire and Czarist Russia), the uprisings of the 19th and 20th centuries of the Poles against the Russians, Prussians and Germans. Much or most of that history is of Polish Roman-Catholic Poland. Part of that history is the existance and engagement of the Jewish minority of Poland in that shared history of Polish-Catholics and Polish-Jews. As you justly put it many Polish jews or Poles of Jewish descent feel as Polish as anyone, and find it sometimes irritating that they are sort of ' reminded' that in the long past past one or more of their ancestors assimilated into Polish culture and often religion. Exactly the same situation exists in the Netherlands where a lot of Dutch of Jewish descent are as Dutch as any Catholic, Protestant or Humanist Dutch person. They are well respected politicians, mayors, aldermen, ministers and state secretaries in government, lawjers, judges, professors at the best universities, writers, musicians, artists, journalists, businesspeople, entrepreneurs, craftsmen, union activists, teachers, cooks, middle class (shop owners), gallery owners, tv personalities, radio hosts, sports people, comedians. Like in Poland a lot of jews are not very fond of being reminded of being jewish or belonging to a seperate group. That has it roots in the history of discrimination of Jews as a seperate group in Christian Europe for centuries. A lot of jews have come from other European countries to escape from religious prosecution (Portugal and Spain; inquisition; the Dutch Sephardic jews), poverty (Poland during the interbellum) and progroms and political opression (Russia), and have a central- and eastern-European background. The Dutch journalist and writer Milo Anstadt (born in Lwów, now the Ukrainian city Lviv) is of Polish-jewish descent, and stil has a Polish passport, speaks, reads and writes Polish and even translates Polish text for Poles in Dutch. It was not done for a long time to underline the jewish background, because non-jews should not know that you were jewish, stated the Holocaust generation. You might never know what tomorrow will happen. People who openly stressed their jewishness were seen as strange. Some people abandoned their jewishness, because the jewish identity had caused difficulties in the past and was seen as a problematic identity. Some Dutch jews converted to Catholicism and Protestantism. Others only expressed their jewishness among fellow jews during shabat or jewish community festivities. Dutch jews are very Dutch like Adam Michnik (the editor-in-chief of Gazeta Wyborcza), Konstanty Gebert (pseudonym Dawid Warszawski; born 1953), Julian Tuwim (co-founded the Skamander group), Hanna Krall, Bruno Schulz, Antoni Słonimski (co-founded the Skamander group), Bronislaw Wildstein and Roman Polanski are very Polish. They are only important in a Polish or central-European context. Only Polanski has also a global importance as a film director, or filmmaker! His movies are seen in Europe, the America's, Israel, Russia and the rest of the world! TodayThere are approximately 41,000 to 45,000 people in the Netherlands who are either Jewish as defined by halakha (Rabbinic law), defined as having a Jewish mother (70% - approximately 30,000 persons) or who have a Jewish father (30% - some 10,000 - 15,000 persons; their number was estimated at 12,470 in April 2006). Most Dutch Jews live in the major cities in the west of the Netherlands (Amsterdam, Rotterdam, The Hague, Utrecht); some 44% of all Dutch Jews live in Amsterdam, which is considered the centre of Jewish life in the Netherlands. In 2000, 20% of the Jewish-Dutch population was 65 years or older; birth rates among Jews were low. An exception is the growing Orthodox Jewish population, especially in Amsterdam. The Jewish-Dutch population after the Second World War is marked by certain significant changes: emigration; a low birth rate; and a high intermarriage rate. After the Second World War and the devastations which were caused by the Holocaust, thousands of surviving Jews migrated to Israel (still home to some 6,000 Dutch Jews) and the United States. In 1947, two years after the end of the Second World War in the Netherlands, the total number of Jews as counted in the population census was just 14,346 (down from a count of 154,887 by the German occupation force in 1941). Later, this number was adjusted by Jewish organisations to some 24,000 Jews living in the Netherlands in 1954 - nevertheless an enormous decrease compared to the number of Jews counted in 1941 - a number which was also disputed as the German occupation force counted Jews on basis of race, which meant that for example hundreds of Christians of Jewish heritage were also included in the Nazi census (according to Raul Hilberg in his book 'Perpetrators Victims Bystanders: the Jewish Catastrophe, 1933-1945', "the Netherlands ... [had] 1,572 Protestants [of Jewish heritage in 1943] ... There were also some 700 Catholic Jews living in the Netherlands [during the Nazi occupation] ...") The sixties and seventies of the 20th century saw a lowering birth rate among Dutch Jews, while intermarriage increased; was the intermarriage rate among Jewish males 41% and among Jewish women 28% in the period of 1945-1949, figures from the nineties saw an increase of intermarriage to some 52% of the total number of marriages among Jews. Among so-called father Jews, the intermarriage rate is as high as 80%. Some within the Jewish community try to counter this trend, creating possibilities for (single) Jews to come in contact with other (single) Jews, like the dating site Jingles, Jentl en Jewell. According to a research by the Joods Maatschappelijk Werk (Jewish Social Service), a large number of Dutch Jews has received an academic education, and more Jewish Dutch women are in the labor force compared to non-Jewish Dutch women. The Jewish population in the Netherlands also seems to become more and more internationalised, with an influx of mostly Israeli and Russian Jews during the last decades. Approximately one in three Dutch Jews has a non-Dutch background. The number of Israeli Jews living in the Netherlands (concentrated in Amsterdam) runs in the thousands (estimates run from 5,000 to 7,000 Israeli immigrants in the Netherlands, although some claims go as high as 12,000), although only a relatively small number of these Israeli Jews is connected to one of the religious Jewish institutions in the Netherlands. Some 10,000 Dutch Jews have emigrated to Israel in the last couple of decades. There are currently some 150 synagogues present in the Netherlands, of which some 50 are still used for religious services. Jewish mediaJewish television and radioJewish television and radio in the Netherlands is produced by NIKMedia. Part of NIKMedia is the Joodse Omroep, which broadcasts documentaries, stories and interviews on a variety of Jewish topics every Sunday and Monday on the Nederland 2 television channel (except from the end of May until the beginning of September). NIKMedia is also responsible for broadcasting music and interviews on Radio 5. www.joodseomroep.nl/Jewish news magazinesThe Nieuw Israëlitisch Weekblad is the oldest still functioning (Jewish) weekly in the Netherlands, with some 6,000 subscribers. It is an important news source for many Dutch Jews, focusing on Jewish topics on a national as well as on an international level. The Joods Journaal (Jewish Weekly) was founded in 1997 and is seen as a more " glossy" magazine in comparison to the NIW. It gives a lot of attention to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Another Jewish magazine published in the Netherlands is the Hakehillot Magazine, issued by the NIK, the Jewish Community of Amsterdam and the PIK. Serving a more liberal Jewish audience, the NVPJ publishes its own magazine, Levend Joods Geloof (Living Jewish Faith), six times a year; serving this same audience, Beit Ha'Chidush publishes its own magazine as well, called Chidushim. www.niw.nl/Jewish websitesThere are a couple of Jewish websites focusing on bringing Jewish news to the Dutch Jewish community. By far the most prominent is Joods.nl, which gives attention to the large Jewish communities in the Netherlands as well as to the Mediene (=is the name given to all the Jewish communities in the Netherlands outside of the capital Amsterdam), to Israel as well as to Jewish culture and youth. AmsterdamAmsterdam's Jewish community today numbers about 15,000 people. A large amount lives in the neighbourhoods of Buitenveldert, the Old-South and the Riverneighbourhood. Buitenveldert is considered a popular neighbourhood to live in; this is due to its low crime-rate and because it is considered to be a quiet neighbourhood. Especially in the neighbourhood of Buitenveldert there's a sizeable Jewish community. In this area, Kosher food is widely available. There are several Kosher restaurants, two bakeries, Jewish-Israeli shops, a pizzeria and some supermarkets host a Kosher department. This neighourbood also has a Jewish elderly home, an Orthodox synagogue and three Jewish schools. Cultural distinctionsUniquely in The Netherlands, Ashkenazi and Sephardi communities coexisted in close proximity. Having different cultural traditions, the communities remained generally separate but their geographical closeness resulted in cross-cultural influences not found elsewhere. Notably, in the early days when small groups of Jews were attempting to establish communities, they were bound to use the services of rabbis and other officials from either culture, depending on who was available. The close proximity of the two cultures inevitably led to intermarriage at a higher rate than was known elsewhere, and in consequence many Jews of Dutch descent have family names that seem to belie their religious affiliation. Particularly unusual, all Dutch Jews have for centuries named children after the children’s grandparents, which is otherwise considered exclusively a Sephardi tradition. (Ashkenazim elsewhere traditionally avoid naming a child after a living relative.) In 1812, while The Netherlands was under Napoleonic rule, all Dutch residents (including Jews) were obliged to register surnames with the civic authorities, a practice which among Jews had previously been followed only by Sephardim. As a result of the compulsory registration and other extant records, it became clear that while the Ashkenazim had been avoiding civic registration, many had nevertheless been using an unofficial system of surnames for hundreds of years. Also under Napoleonic rule, in 1809 a law was passed obliging Dutch Jewish schools to teach in Dutch and Hebrew. This effected the exclusion of other languages and in due course, Yiddish, the lingua franca of Ashkenazim, and Portuguese, the previous language of the Sephardim, practically ceased to be spoken among Dutch Jews. Certain Yiddish words have been adopted into the Dutch language, especially in Amsterdam (which is also called Mokum, from the Hebrew word for town or place, makom), where the historically large Jewish community has had a significant influence on the local dialect. There are several other Hebrew words that can be found in the local dialect including: Mazel which is the Hebrew word for luck or fortune; Tof which is Tov in Hebrew meaning good (as in מזל טוב - Mazel tov), and Googem in Hebrew Chacham, meaning wise, sly, witty or intelligent, where the Dutch g is pronounced similarly to the 8th letter of the Hebrew Alphabet the guttural Chet. Economic influencesJews played a major role in the development of Dutch colonial territories and international trade, and many Jews in former colonies have Dutch ancestry. However, all the major colonial powers were competing fiercely for control of trade routes; the Dutch were relatively unsuccessful and during the 18th century, their economy went into decline. Many of the Ashkenazim in the rural areas were no longer able to subsist and they migrated to the cities in search of work. This caused a large number of small Jewish communities to collapse completely (ten adult males were required for major religious ceremonies). Entire communities then migrated to the cities where the Jewish populations swelled explosively. In 1700, the Jewish population of Amsterdam was 6,200, with Ashkenazim and Sephardim in almost equal numbers. By 1795 the figure was 20,335, the vast majority being poor Ashkenazim. Because Jews were obliged to live in specified Jewish quarters, there was severe overcrowding. By the mid-nineteenth century, many were migrating to other countries where the advancement of emancipation offered better opportunities (see Chuts). To come back to the topic, I am interested in the Polish Judaism as part of the Polish history and culture, and because Polish Judaism also plays a role in the world, due to the role Polish jews played in literature, science, philosophy, politics, journalism, and the economy of Poland, the Netherlands, Israel and the USA. Zionism is part of that history, because the Polish Jewish politics was devided between non-zionistic parties and Zionistic parties (Polai Zion and the General Zionists) in the interbellum. And even after the war Zionism played a role in Poland, with the silent support of the anti-cummunist Poles for Israel against the Sovjet backed Arab states in Israels wars. Zionism and Israel is in that context interesting as a typical European Diaspora Jewish phenomenon, with firm roots in Polish Judaism, next to Russian-Judaism and German Judaism. That's also why I am interested how the Poles of Jewish descent or Polish jews thought about the views of Palestinian and Arab guest students, the Russian students (whom country was in the Pro-Arab camp) and the Polish-American students (because the Polish-American and Jewish-american relationship was often strained or hostile). Was there a difference between the opinions or views of the Polish Polish students and the Polish-American guest students for instance? And ofcourse the Polish students were individuals, and each of them had a personal view. So Poles can have differant opinions amongst themselves, like ofcourse the Polish jews did and do not have all the same opinion. In that atmosphere of academical intellectual debate in the universety campus during the Polish Peoples Republic, must have had interesting differences of opinion, human solidarity of youngsters, and unorthodox new thoughts! Pieter |
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Post by pieter on Feb 19, 2009 19:12:32 GMT -7
Pieter, it is sometimes a very delicate matter to distinguish "Polish Jews" out of Poles. Most of Poles of Jewish descent feel as Polish as anyone, and find it sometimes irritating that they are sort of 'reminded' that in the long past past one or more of their ancestors assimilated into Polish culture and often religion. This reminds German Nurnberg laws - checking back into third generation to call someone 'not a Jew'. On the other hand there are of course Poles who underline their Jewishness. They are Poles and Jews simultaneosly, just as some Poles are simulateneously German (in Opole region) or Belarusian (in Bialystok region) or Lithuanian (in Suwałki region) etc. To make this thread 'why nobody post' even more colourful here's a history oh a song - the title of the song is "Rebeka" . Here what a youtuber jurek46pink, who put it up on youtube says about it Still I would call it Old Polish Tango although it is -- in text and music -- so Jewish. There were many songs composed in Poland in pre-war time meant for audience speaking Polish language, regardless their roots or ancestry. Some of them were picturing people, their habits and customs, according to Jewish tradition; no wonder, there were more than 3 millions Jews in the country on Vistula river.
Tango 'Rebeka' is not the only example of the kind, although seems to be the most popular: story of a poor girl, shop attendant in a small town, where one day a handsome and rich gentleman from 'great world', passing by, asks her for 'Ergo' product. She will not forget this visit and the image of 'the prince' -- as a love at first sight -- will haunt her all her life.
Before the war, a full text version was recorded only by Zofia Terné (1932). After the war the tango-song became a Polish standard recollecting times "when Jews were among us". Sung by such interpreters as Wanda Warska, Elżbieta Kępińska, Ewa Demarczyk, Sława Przybylska and many, many others. So there we go, Rebecca by Zofia Terne, A.D. 1932 by Ewa Demarczyk, 1982 and a contemporary version I'm sure you will like the most by by Nina Stiller (Gajewska). The Yiddish text by Robert Stiller has been based on original Polish version Tuftabis, I loved to listen to the youtube songs and actually prefered the Polish second song above the third last one! Ewa Demarczyk is a remarkable singer, a sort of female Jaqcues Brel. In the Netherlands there is not so much labeling of Jewishness, most jews are seen as Dutch and not mentioned by their etnicity in the media. Only if they refer themselves to their jewish identity or clearly take a for instance Pro-Israeli or critical standpoint towards Israel as a jew! The German Nurnberg laws wetn very far in researching someone's jewishness. Full jews, half jews, quarter jews and etc. Ofcourse this Nazi race ideology was based on pseudo science, and total criminal nonsense. I read and saw a documentry about young Poles who found out about their Jewishness. Some of them had thought that they were 100% Polish catholics for whole of their short lives. Best thing is to see a mixed Jewish-Catholic or even 100% Jewish-Polish heritage as a richness of Polish culture and variety. yes, ofcourse they are Poles and Jews simultaneosly, because they are born in Poland, speak Polish, have a Polish passport, Polish family, Polish friends, a Polish past and loyalty to Poland. Like the writer Milo Anstadt who came from a Polish speaking Jewish family from Lwow, where 1/3 was Polish, 1/3 Jewish and 1/3 Ukrainian before the second world war. Yes, we also have a German minority which is simulateneously German and Dutch (the second largest minority). Like in Poland you have 100% Dutch families with German names, who do not have German as a second language, because their ancesters came to Holland 150 or 200 years ago or at the end of the 19th century and early 20th century. Some of the Rottterdam Harbour (Port) barons (leading entrepreneurfamilies) are of German descent, but totally Dutch. There are also some Polish-Dutch families with a Polish father and a Polish mother which kids who speak fluently Dutch, but in the same time Polish (because their parents speak Polish at home), an Israeli minority (which is a seperate part of the Dutch community, because some Dutch jews came back with their families, but their kids spoke Hebrew only, so you have Dutch who speak with a heavy Hebrew accent), and a Russian community who is bilingual too. (often mixed marriages with Dutch women or men) There are quite a few Dutch men with Polish or Russian wives. The Russian community is mainly rooted in Amsterdam! But the largest minorities today in the Netherlands are the people of Indonesian descent, followed by the German-, Turkish-, Surinamese-, Moroccan-, Antillean and Aruban minorities. The Poles, Israeli's, Russians, Palestinians, Arabs, Kurds, Chinese, Africans and others belong to the other 6% of minorities! The ethnic origins of the citizens of the Netherlands are diverse. Nevertheless, the majority still remains indigenous Dutch. A 2005 estimate counted: 1. 80.9% Dutch 2. 2.4% Indonesian (Indo-Dutch, South Moluccan) 3. 2.4% German 4. 2.2% Turkish 5. 2.0% Surinamese 6. 1.9% Moroccan 7. 0.8% Antillean and Aruban 8. 6.0% other Pieter |
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Post by tuftabis on Feb 23, 2009 7:34:30 GMT -7
Pieter, thank you for your presentation about the Netherlands, I read it with interest!
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Post by tuftabis on Feb 23, 2009 7:40:36 GMT -7
I loved to listen to the youtube songs and actually prefered the Polish second song above the third last one! Ewa Demarczyk is a remarkable singer I would say the first version put me to sleep instantly, the second wakes up a philosopher in me, while the third one wakes up a man in me Thanks again, Pieter. |
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Post by tuftabis on Feb 23, 2009 7:59:42 GMT -7
Jaga, as long as you look at Gaza Strip only, you will let your heart obscure the skills of critical thinking. The problem is wider and Israel's even without American backing you are so much aginst, would be able to totally crush Gaza strip.
==Does not remind you this a politics of Nazi Germany when they caegorized people to the worse and better categories?==
you have equalized Russia and Israel beforehand, now you find similarities between Nazi Germany and Israel. Would that mean you find similarities between Russia and Nazi Germany? Please, Jaga...
And finally - I think we can leave Nazi Germany aside as a general rule. For two reasons at least. The first is that almost every comparison like that in fact diminishes the German crimes 1933- 1945 through their relativisation. Second reason - almost always it works this way: we don't like some country we compare it to Nazi Germany, ""easy way"" to show how the country one doesn't like is ""evil"".
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Post by Jaga on Feb 23, 2009 11:42:30 GMT -7
Tufta,
I agree. I really hate to compare anything to Nazi Germany. It may be not a fair comparison. Since you talk about Soviets, they were actually quite similar and sometimes worse. Stalin was just smarter than Hitler, therefore he emerged from WW II on a right side as a victor.
You are right that Israel is not among friends. But if it would act like it does (building new settlements in the West Bank) it would be more and more hated.
Israel needs to show a good will against its outside and inside neighbors rather than behaving like a paranoid man who has guns around his house because he does not trust anyone.
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even more colourful here's a history oh a song - the title of the song is "Rebeka" . Here what a youtuber jurek46pink, who put it up on youtube says about it 