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Post by tuftabis on Dec 4, 2009 2:16:16 GMT -7
Pieter, once again I generally agree. To continue let me say that there's a strong political will to go on bravely with reforms, especially tax reform and decreasing the internal debt inside PO. However the now prevailing internal fraction and leadership is unfortunately more concentrated on just keeping the status quo. The logic behind it very simple - the status quo is quite good for short term, while the reforms will cause dissatisfaction of large groups of the electorate. Such dissatisfaction will diminish the possibilty that Donald Tusk becomes the president, which is his aim. As to PO's main opponent (and actually the only one which actually has the required potential) - there were strong pro-reform fraction in PiS as well, but unfortunately almost all those people have left this party. Now to the separation of church and state. Please don't get an impression it isn't seperated. However it is not as seperated as in France, and probably wil never be. This is one of the hallmarks of out Polish specifity, please always bear in mind while thinking about Poland that we are not, never be, and porobably will never want to be as the Western Europe is. Most of the Poles are quite happy with this degree of Church's involvement into the public life we presently have. If more strict seperation is to occurr is not the matter of politicians will, but a matter of mentality change in voters. For instance - if PO would right now issue any law making the seperation stronger, the large masses of voters would instantly swap their choices to PiS. If you are interested in my personal view about this issue, as I said I agree with you. I wish a total separation could be implemented. However by 'total separation' I don't mean the French way, where not just political but also cultural or even social life inside the state, the country, form a whole universe seperated by iron curtain from the church and Christian tradition. Thank you also for introducing more and more information about the Netherlands. They are read with pleasure and interest.
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Post by pieter on Dec 4, 2009 18:35:44 GMT -7
Pieter, once again I generally agree. To continue let me say that there's a strong political will to go on bravely with reforms, especially tax reform and decreasing the internal debt inside PO. However the now prevailing internal fraction and leadership is unfortunately more concentrated on just keeping the status quo. The logic behind it very simple - the status quo is quite good for short term, while the reforms will cause dissatisfaction of large groups of the electorate. Such dissatisfaction will diminish the possibilty that Donald Tusk becomes the president, which is his aim. As to PO's main opponent (and actually the only one which actually has the required potential) - there were strong pro-reform fraction in PiS as well, but unfortunately almost all those people have left this party. Now to the separation of church and state. Please don't get an impression it isn't seperated. However it is not as seperated as in France, and probably wil never be. This is one of the hallmarks of out Polish specifity, please always bear in mind while thinking about Poland that we are not, never be, and porobably will never want to be as the Western Europe is. Most of the Poles are quite happy with this degree of Church's involvement into the public life we presently have. If more strict seperation is to occurr is not the matter of politicians will, but a matter of mentality change in voters. For instance - if PO would right now issue any law making the seperation stronger, the large masses of voters would instantly swap their choices to PiS. If you are interested in my personal view about this issue, as I said I agree with you. I wish a total separation could be implemented. However by 'total separation' I don't mean the French way, where not just political but also cultural or even social life inside the state, the country, form a whole universe seperated by iron curtain from the church and Christian tradition. Thank you also for introducing more and more information about the Netherlands. They are read with pleasure and interest. Tufta, We agree on many things and differ on a few things. Let's talk about European liberalism (in staid of the American one, because the American one is like European Social-democracy). First I think we both have something with the broader movement of European liberal-democracy (as a legitimate democratic movement). You are a PO supporter and in Dutch perspective you are centre-right and have elements in you have the centre-right liberal-conservative or conservative-liberal Peoples Party of Freedom and Democracy (VVD), and the centre-right social conservative Christian-democratic CDA party. Financial-economical you would feel at home in the VVD, and on the moral and ethical, cultural feeld more in the CDA. VVD: pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partia_Ludowa_na_rzecz_Wolno%C5%9Bci_i_Demokracjien.wikipedia.org/wiki/People%27s_Party_for_Freedom_and_DemocracyA corrtection on the English Wikipedia link about the VVD. Rita Verdonk spilt with the party and founded her own rightwing, National-liberal-liberal movement, Proud of the Netherlands: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trots_op_NederlandGeert Wilders was the first one to split from the VVD in 2004 when he formed his own group in parlaiment which later became the Nationalistic, Populist, Anti-Islam and Anti-migration righting conservative-liberal national party, Party for Freedom: pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partia_Wolno%C5%9Bci_%28Holandia%29en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Party_for_Freedomwww.groepwilders.com/website/default.aspx?ID=4The differance between Proud of the Netherlands (TON) and the Party for Freedom (PVV) is that the first one is not anti-immigrants or Islam, but for tougher laws, allowing less immigrants into the country and better integration of migrants who come tom the Netherlands. Wilders Party for Freedom (PVV) wants prohibition of all non Western (non-European) immigration and a total Stop of Muslim immigration. He totally supports the Swiss stance on banning minarets and called for a Dutch referendum on the issue. CDA: pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apel_Chrze%C5%9Bcija%C5%84sko-Demokratycznyen.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Democratic_Appealen.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chadecjapl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chadecjapl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chrze%C5%9Bcija%C5%84ska_demokracjaFor a centrist or centre-rightwing Catholic Pole the VVD will stil be to liberal in some views, since in the progressive, liberal Purple coalition of the ninetees it supporterd the legalisation of Abortion, Euthenasia, liberal drugspolicies and the institution of the Gay mariage. You might be more conservative on social-cultural, moral and educational things (what values we give our kids and how we stand and act in our lives). In that perspective you might see something in the Christian ChristianUnion, a government party and the ideas and government policy and course of the CDA, which has a christian liberal-conservative approach. In the Past I voted for the centre left Social-democratic Labour party, PvdA, was a member and activist in the ninetees. Since my adulthood in 1988 I have voted most often centre-left or left parties. My opinions changed however when I grew older. I voted for Labour, GreenLeft, the social-liberal D66 and local even for the Protestant Christian ChristianUnion, because they are reliable and pragmatic in my city Arnhem. On the National level I will never vote for the ChristianUnion though, because they are to Evangelical and bible loyal Protestants. I don't believe in the politics of the bible (the bible is the truth and the scriptures should rule. Government policies, measures and rules should be according to the dogma's and reality of the bible story) and the implementation of a theocracy. It's good when there is a strong political will to go on bravely with reforms, especially tax reform and decreasing the internal debt inside PO. I hope the Civil Platform won't become opportunist or afraid for losing votes if they implement these tough measures. Strategic it is better and more honourable to lose some votes on the short term and gain succes and achievements in the long term above appeasing the Polish voters (public) with withdrawal of reforms to gain a presidency.Keeping the status quo is in the short term goof for the party, but bad for Poland and the Poles. The guts to stay put and make tough decisions that hurt on the short term and repair or put a fundament under the Polish economy and financial system is important. I hope that the PO could receive the strong pro-reform fractions in PiS in it's own ranks. Where are all those people that have left PiS? Did they become apathic non-voters who lost faith in politics and democracy or did they go to other parties or formed their onw organisation? The separation of church and stateThere is a serious differance in opinion about the role of the church and faith in central-Europe and Western-Europe. Your Central-Europe is confessional, which means that faith is stil an important element in the lives of the Polish citizen, and faith has it's influence on the education you give your kids, the political choices you make, they way you look at the society you live in and the way you want that the poltics organises the practical things in the lives of ordinairy Poles. First Poland has elements of a heritage of the Commnunist Polish Peoples Republic, secondly during Communism and after the fall of Communism the role of the Church stayed strong. Stronger than in other European countries, because the Catholic clergy has more influence, due to the central role the church plays in millions of Polish familes. To be as seperated as in France, with it's strict laïcité system, is dificult in a Catholic country with a strong position of the Church. Laïcité: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La%C3%AFcit%C3%A9pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/LaicyzacjaYou are right that the strong presence and social and political influence of the Polish Catholic church is one of the hallmarks of Polish specifity. I am not blind for history and the present development and the historical differances between for instance Poland and the Netherlands. Yes, most of the Poles are quite happy with the social-cultural, moral (ethical) and political influence of the Church in the polish society and politics. Yes, a more strict seperation can occurr when the mentality of the voters could change. But they won't due to the tradition, the customs, the habits, the faith practice (in which the influence of the local clergy of the Catholic church and the community matters). The PO would be brave and pragmatic if it would issue a law making the seperation between state and church stronger. The party would lose voters, but it could start fighting both corruption in the state (politics) and the church. Standing behind a strict seperation between church and state doesn't exactly mean an anti-Catholic approach, it means that the state and the political system takes itself serious, that politics and the governing of the state is not a role for the church. And if the church should keep it's strong influence, people should be able to vote about it. May the church have a political role? That can be asked to the Polish voters in a referendum about this issue. I am interested in your personal view about this issue!. I agree with you that the radical french 'total separation' system and legislation of the laïcité is not perfect, because it smells like secular fundamentalism and anti-religious measures. A forced equality at the cost of religions (jews aren't allowed to wear kippa's a official buildings, schools and community centres, the same with Muslim and Christian women who cover their head in custom with their faithbeliefs). I Poland the Catholic church will stay a strong spiritual power, ethical power, cultural sourc, a keeper of the Polish tradition and a central element in the lives of many Poles. As a believe in a secular state I also believe in a strong church that cna be critical of the government who rules Poland. The church hierarchy is allowed to be critical and fair in it;s judgements. Pieter
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Post by pieter on Dec 6, 2009 9:28:03 GMT -7
Interesting essay from a Polish student:
Mateusz Łącki Student of The Warsaw School of Economics "European Spirit of Entrepreneurship and the role Poland's young generation can play so Europe regain its leadership in the economy and social matters in the globalised word" - an essay -
The European Union, though once recognised as one of the most promicing global markets, is now believed to reach some kind of an impass. The process, given the name of eurosclerosis, is a source of a great concern of all the fellow Europeans. It becomes more and more clear that Europe will not manage to overtake the United States by 2010 as it was stated in the Lisbon Strategy, nor is it to do so in the near future. On the first of May 2004 ten new countries have joined the Union. At that particular moment many people asked whether these countries were to bring forth new ideas and set new ways for the development. Among them the biggest and having the largest population was Poland. It has remained so even after the enlargement of 2007. By taking under scope its youngest generation we might see whether Europe could be positively influenced by its new members.
One of the main problems with modern Europe is that there are less and less people who risk to set up their own businesses. Without it the free market cannot work efficiently, ceding to the monopolised and "statised" economy. This should be avoided if we want to match the US. Unfortunately, it can be observed that more and more young Poles are afraid of becoming entrepreneurs. This phenomenon concerns especially the elites who in vast majority would prefer to get employed in large corporations. A well-determined path of career and high expected value of future earnings tempts with a sense of stability. This is an upsetting constatation, as those young elites will remain a point of referance for other people's aspirations. Eventually, we might end up with a society believing that the biggest success one can achieve is to work in a huge, multinational entreprise and that only fools could come up with an idea of setting up one of their own. But there exists another sort of young Poles. There are those who emmigrate to foreign countries to earn a decent money, to learn laguages, and to learn new skills. Among those people many are students with technical knowledge, many having finished informatics, many engineers, young doctors, but also people with various types of trainings, like nurses, electricians, mechanics and so on. They proved themeselves courageous in their decision to leave the country and to work abroad. And after some years they tend to come back to Poland, many of them with money and ideas for starting their own businesses. They are flexible and aware of what could be their way to success on the globalised market. Of course not all of them will become entrepreneurs. Still, they have indeed possessed most of the skills that make a common man an entrepreneur. These people resemble the 19th century migrants, those skilled and crafty Europeans crossing the ocean, who enriched the American society and laid foundations for the american wealth and developement. It is vital for Europe to keep them; otherwise we will never experience a "European Dream", and Europe will become only a part-time stop for those young and skillful people who will strive to find their fortune elsewhere.
Another big advantage of Poland's young generation is its persistent ideological reluctance to the deceptions of marxism. The history has learned them a lesson. Some of them still lived under the communism, others were given a thorough account on it by their families and older friends. It is important that they exchange this knowledge with their peers from the western countries. Over there, this ideology is spreading within the elites. Many of polish students who take part in international exchanges find it bizarre that the people they meet, professors and students of the most excellent european universities, keep on believing that the world is infested by the raging capitalists, the oppressors of the common man. "A spectre is haunting Europe – the spectre of Communism", once said Marx, and we should be deadly serious about these words that do reverberate in the minds of many young people. Europeans should discuss it, but not on the governmental level. The enlargement of Europe has facilitated the discussion, as more and more common people from different countries can meet eachover and exchange their points of view.
The spirit of entrepreneurship cannot be devoid of the European values. Those values might be found in the above-mentioned discussion. In my opinion, the entrepreneur should be a person who is above all dedicated to the creation and is driven by the idea of development and progress for the sake of them. Max Weber regarded the protestant ethic as a source of capitalism, and I think he was right in saying so. Because what can be sometimes observed in Poles is a lack of an ethical background in their entreprises. In other words, capitalism can incite egoism and an overwhelming pursuit of money, which is morally and socially incorrect. These principles are somewhat lost to Poles, but not only to them. All in all, there are still many advantages of Poland's young generation. It has still many traits of a good entrepreneur: flexibility, knowledge and experience. It can surely enrich the EU and in a way remind her how an entrepreneur should look like. But of course it has many weaknesses as well and could be enhanced by other nations' experiences. By means of discussion and debate, Europe might find its way out of the impass.
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Post by tuftabis on Dec 6, 2009 9:40:05 GMT -7
In the Past I voted for the centre right Social-democratic Labour party, Pieter, when I was around twenty I would have voted for a social-democratic party too .... if there was one in Poland Now, as you have rightly said I vote more centre-right , and yes economicaly moderaterly liberal and more conservative in social-redestribution terms. Not in 'moral and ethical, cultural', oh no, the 'real' christian democrats would throw me away ;D Pieter, to put this complicated explanation another way, if you don't mind ;D 'you' (the west) don't (generally) believe in God, we (generally) do. That's all ;D Especially in the country regions this influence is still overwhelming sometimes. This influence has both the bright and the dark sides. The problem is that fighting both a time is nearly impossible. Why? The corruption hits the worst in country regions, little towns and so on. In the same places the influence of Church is the highest. The bets imaginable way to fight the corruption is to have it condemned every Sunday during the holy mass...
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Post by pieter on Dec 6, 2009 16:43:07 GMT -7
In the Past I voted for the centre left Social-democratic Labour party, Pieter, when I was around twenty I would have voted for a social-democratic party too .... if there was one in Poland Now, as you have rightly said I vote more centre-right , and yes economicaly moderaterly liberal and more conservative in social-redestribution terms. Not in 'moral and ethical, cultural', oh no, the 'real' christian democrats would throw me away ;D Pieter, to put this complicated explanation another way, if you don't mind ;D 'you' (the west) don't (generally) believe in God, we (generally) do. That's all ;D Especially in the country regions this influence is still overwhelming sometimes. This influence has both the bright and the dark sides. The problem is that fighting both a time is nearly impossible. Why? The corruption hits the worst in country regions, little towns and so on. In the same places the influence of Church is the highest. The bets imaginable way to fight the corruption is to have it condemned every Sunday during the holy mass... Tufta, If you were around twenty and there would be a rightwing, patriotic wing of the pre-war PPS mixed with the Social-democratic values of the Dutch social-democratic labour party (PvdA), German SPD and present British labour, you would! Because compared to the Polish centre-left SLD I think the Dutch labour party would be considered a centre-right, social-conservative party, due to it's market oriented contemporary views, it's stricter immigrations stance, it's ability to govern with centre-right parties like the VVD and CDA. The PvdA was traditional anti-communist Social-democratic in the cold war, during the second world war and the first half of the 20th century. They were never very socialist, because they did'nt demanded a plan economy, but represented workers and progressive lower middle class in progressive demands and workers rights. After the war Labour got a huge influx of progressive Calvinist and Catholic vorting circles and a large part of the Social-liberal pre-war * VDB ( The Free-thinking Democratic League). In fact the Dutch labour in government, provincial and city administrations is often a pragmatic centre-right party, who is Entrepreneurship, business interest oriented. * VDB: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free-thinking_Democratic_LeagueThe real socialst can only found in the Socialist party and GreenLeft, and those are always in opposition and often ruled out by the other parties. The pragmatic, progressive, social-liberal, centre-left D66 (comparable with the Pre-war The Free-thinking Democratic League) is the ideal glue for centre-left and centre-right governments with labour (PvDA), de rightwing-liberals (VVD) and the Christian-democrats (CDA), sometimes helped by a fourth party like the small ChristianUnion, who replaced D66 in the present coalition. Dutch politics is not less complicated then Polish politics, because we often have a " Polish Landtag" too! A " Polish Landtag" is a Dutch expression for endless and active quarreling or conflict resulting from discord among persons or political factions in a chaotic parlaiment. The proverb comes from the Polish history from before the partitions of Poland in a Prussian, Russian and Austrian parts. The " Polish Landtag" comes from the weak deviding nobel democracy of the Magnata and schlachtza, who did not want a strong king and a strong central government. Now I really think that you as a centre-right bloke would fit in the economicaly moderaterly liberal and more conservative in social-redestribution terms VVD, than the Christian-democrats who are often more progressive on the social-economical field than the VVD. Because the CDA often had to govern with the centre-left PvdA and D66, and so had to make compromises in the financial-economical field the VVD would never be willing to take. In the purple coalitions of the ninetees, which were very unusual the D66 and PvdA moved towards the VVD, so that you really got a centrist government of centre-left (PvDA & D66) and VVD (Centre-right to right). The VVD is secular but acknowledges the Judeo-Christian roots of the Nehterlands and Europe. The party is not disrespectful or anti-christian, but not confessional, because it is a secular, centre-right, conservative liberal party. Am I right or wrong again? The Dutch centre-right like the present Polish pragmatic, diplomatic (sophisticated and well mannered) and European oriented Polish government which is dominated by the PO very well.The Dutch don't have so much in common with the Polish president, but business is always done with the prime minster, and the the minister of foreign affairs, economical affairs, financial affiars, justice and defense. I think that the present Polish-Dutch relations are exellent. Tufta, you are right ofcourse ' we' (the west) don't (generally) believe in God, and " you" in Central-Europe (east of Germany) fortunately generally do. That suites you, and together with the Irish, Catholic and Anglican British, and Catholic Italians, Spaniards, Portugese and French (yes, you have -conservative- French Catholics too) you preserve the christian identity and character of Europe. We Western-European headens deliver the Humanist (Erasmus and Spinoza) part! ;D (That Central-Europe is the believer is not for granted, because for instance the Central-European Czechs, whom culture is near to Poland, with their Western-slav culture and heritage, are very secular). Pieter
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Post by tuftabis on Dec 7, 2009 10:23:06 GMT -7
We had "Polish Landtag" in Poland even in modern times, Pieter. This was shortly after the 1989, when we started the fall of communism. We had some 20 parties in Sejm, some really strange and tiny. It was really hard to get some praliamentary consensus. But even with this hard parliamentary situation, plus Russian army still present in Poland Mazowiecki's government managed to change the course of Poland.
Yes, from what you say VVD party seems quite sensible to me. However it seems more to the right, somewhere near your position Pieter.
It is very good you mentioned the two greatest Dutch thinkers Erasmus and Spinoza! You are rightly proud of them. I have read both and I do appreciate both. Their views are in no way contradictory to large part of my views, rather complementary. Besides, what I find infinite (never-dying) in their work is less related to transient politics but more to the special, distanced way of seeing reality, with great amount of criticism and intellectual liberty. This is my path too.
Of course you are right about differences inside Central Europe. But I ment Poland in this respect. The Chechs but also Slovaks are generally non-believers, they were generally more fond about communism too. Also wew should remember about large and brave nations of Ukrainians and Russians where faith is strong. Pieter, looking at the world from Warsaw it is you, the West, with your laicite who is an exception to the rule, not the other way ;D
It is true that while Poles become more and more mentally free their connections with hierarchical Church loosens. But the faith does not, in my opinion. This is a difference I see.
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Post by pieter on Dec 7, 2009 20:27:50 GMT -7
Tufta,
I read your comment again with great interest and pleasure! I like our exchange and the fact that I learn from your experiance and practical Polish pragmatism and knowledge!
Thank you!
Another question: Do you believe that Muslim migration to Poland (Chechens, Tartars, Turks, Arabs and Persians) and non-Muslim immigration from the East (Christian Ukrainians, White-Russians, Russians and Rumanians) will grow? Is there a growth right now.
I ask this question, because Poland has become a full member of the EU and the living standard has risen. And since all European countries have Muslim immigrants from Turkey, it is not unlikely Poland also get Turkish immigrants (and other Muslims)?
Pieter
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Post by tuftabis on Dec 8, 2009 3:58:12 GMT -7
Another question: Do you believe that Muslim migration to Poland (Chechens, Tartars, Turks, Arabs and Persians) and non-Muslim immigration from the East (Christian Ukrainians, White-Russians, Russians and Rumanians) will grow? Is there a growth right now. I ask this question, because Poland has become a full member of the EU and the living standard has risen. And since all European countries have Muslim immigrants from Turkey, it is not unlikely Poland also get Turkish immigrants (and other Muslims)? Pieter Pieter, most of immigration to Poland comes from our three eastern neighbours - Ukraine, Belarus and Russia, which is the result of both Polish immigration policy which makes immigration from these states much much easier than from elsewhere, and of our cultural and linguistic proximity and similarity. Also there's a rising tide of Poles arriving from these countries, who are however treated exactly the same as Polish citizens and nationals, therefore they are not counted as immigrants. The main groups of non-European legal immigrants to Poland, those who treat Poland as a final destination, are the Vietnamese and Armenians, both now amounting to approximately 500 000. The Muslim immigrants are not numerous and as a rule after a short while they leave for France, Netherlands etc. If the numebers of Muslim immigration will substantially grow in future I don't know, but it seems the Polish policy is not very encouraging for these groups, especially compared to Western EU. As an interesting fact, not related to immigration, let me name the 10 top countries of origin of non-immigration residents living in Poland permanently. These are from the most numerous to least numerous Ukraine, Germany, Belarus, Vietnam, Russia, Armenia, France, UK, USA, India.
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Post by pieter on Dec 9, 2009 14:16:51 GMT -7
Pieter, most of immigration to Poland comes from our three eastern neighbours - Ukraine, Belarus and Russia, which is the result of both Polish immigration policy which makes immigration from these states much much easier than from elsewhere, and of our cultural and linguistic proximity and similarity. Also there's a rising tide of Poles arriving from these countries, who are however treated exactly the same as Polish citizens and nationals, therefore they are not counted as immigrants. The main groups of non-European legal immigrants to Poland, those who treat Poland as a final destination, are the Vietnamese and Armenians, both now amounting to approximately 500 000. The Muslim immigrants are not numerous and as a rule after a short while they leave for France, Netherlands etc. If the numebers of Muslim immigration will substantially grow in future I don't know, but it seems the Polish policy is not very encouraging for these groups, especially compared to Western EU. As an interesting fact, not related to immigration, let me name the 10 top countries of origin of non-immigration residents living in Poland permanently. These are from the most numerous to least numerous Ukraine, Germany, Belarus, Vietnam, Russia, Armenia, France, UK, USA, India. Tuftabis, To continue our conversation, the news you provided me here is accurate and promissing. First of all your Polish government has stricter immigration laws and demands for certain immigrants. It is good that the Polish policy does not consider ethnic Poles from the Ukraine, Belarus and Russia as immigrants. But stil I think Poland should also look at these ethnic Poles carefully. ( **you can read my opinion about it in this letter). It is also good that you allow kindred Slav neighbour people of the ethnic East-Slav peoples, cultures and language group, the Ukrainians, Belarussians and Russians to enter as new citizens. Because these people have a Orthodox-christian faith that is close to Polish Catholicism (with the same important role of virgin mary and the nation), can learn Polish easily and have simular moral, ethical and social-cultural views. You share a history of communism, nationalistic independance struggle and a transformation process towards democracy and capitalism. The only differance is that Poland has a higher living standards and is further in it's development towards a market economy and parlaimentairy democracy. You do not have the " problems" or " burden" the unlimited influx of migrants of Muslim countries has caused Western-European countries and so societies. I want to state that I don't blame the immigrants themselves, but our Dutch employers who brought the masses of Turks and Maroccans here without any demand of integration, assimilation, learning the language, customs and culture of their " New country". Secondly I blame the Dutch government of the sixtees, seventees and eightees, and the political parties from (centre-) left and (centre-) right who made the legislation and had to have a view, opinion and policies for the then present situation and the future. They did'nt and the opposition of that time neither. So it's the politicians and the employers to blame. The Unions are also to blame, because they took part in the social dialogue of the Social partners of that time. (also in the on-going tripartite dialogue between the social partners -trade unions, the employers and the government - which is represented by the Social department) All three parties were political correct, afraid for being labeled discriminatory, xenophobe or were just indifferant. In their naievity they thought that the cheep guest labourers would go home after their present job would be done. Forgetting that the immigrants would take part in or make use of our social security system (wellfare state). It is quite obvious (or logical) for the Maroccan and Turkish guestlabourers to go to Western Europe when they got the chance to go, because all over the world people (regardless of their religion or culture) move to places that can improve their lives. Both Turks and Maroccans came from poor, mountain area's (Anatolia in East Turkey and the Rif mountains in Marocco), with strict medieval (mediterranean) codes of honour, a very old fashionate ultra-orthodox faith, in which men and women aren't equal, the patriarchal power is absolutist, and the family clan structure and control is very strong. (keeping the honour of the family is in that culture of the upmost importance, and much more important than education, progress in life, civil libertees, freedom and democracy) Their own Islamic teachings and laws, Islamic customs and tradition is also much more important than the Dutch law (legislation), customs, habits and democracy. Sometimes the surrounding Dutch and European culture and society is seen as alien, threatening to their islamic identity and so on. I have heard secret recordings from mosques in Eindhoven, The Hague and Amsterdam in which the Iman (Islamic priest) called on the worshippers to reject democracy, liberalism and integration. Muslims have to stay segregated was their message. These were secret recordings by a Dutch quality newsprogram Nova, recorded a few years back. This caused a lot of turmoil in the Dutch society. And even though this is unaccaptable in my eyes and that of my Dutch compatriots eyes, that kind of Muslims are right from their orthodox or fundamentalist view. Certain aspects of the Western-European democracy threaten their way of thinking. For instance they reject the equality of Hetrosexuality, Homosexuality and bisexuality under the Dutch law. (I know that in countries like Poland and Russia they are not fond of Gay marriage or same-sex partnership registration either. In Poland they even don't like hetrosexual partnership registration) They in their faith reject the equality between men and women. Not all of them ofcourse, but a great deal of them, yes! They reject a liberal-democracy that wants to limitize Islam, and which is against their religious law, the sharia. You have had this in the past between the Church and the secular state system and democracy, due to the fact that democracy limitized the influence of the Vatican, the Dutch Catholic clergy (which had a lot of power and influence over the Dutch catholics), the priests, the teachings of the " Catholic doctrine" and ofcourse also the bible loyal protestants of whom many were and are anti-revolutionairy. That means a total rejection of the values of the French revolution, the powerful anti-revolutionairy branch of the Dutch Christian-democracy was against the French revolution (they reject the Liberté, égalité, fraternité, French for "Liberty, equality, fraternity (brotherhood)", while they follow the directives of another frenchmen, Jean Calvin ( Jan Kalwin in Polish: pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jan_Kalwin / www.protestanci.org/ and in the Dutch perspective: www.teologia.protestanci.org/artykuly/art48.php ). Another threat I can see or think that can happen that in the secular, liberal-democracy, the religious can form a front, so a front of orthodox or (ultra-) *conservative Catholics, Protestants, Muslims and Orthodox-jews (even though the latter are a tiny minority). Because in some cases the four reject the same things from the liberal-democracy (our state system and parlaimentary democracy), form an equal (old testamony or new testamony) biblical, koran and thora standpoint. This could happen in the Christian democratic CDA, if this christian-democratic party would become more conservative and multi-cultural (with more conservative Muslims than it already has). * Like in France, Spain, the Philippines, Italy and Poland you have a small group of (ultra) conservative or orthodox Catholics in the Netherlands who have views which existed in the Netherlands in the thirtees, fourtees and fiftees. (Some belong to the Charismatic movement inside the church some go to or maintain the latin mass, and others are just very Vatican loyal Roman-Catholics, who do not have much in common with the Dutch secular society. You find these people in the Catholic provinces in the South -North-Brabant and Limburg - and the Catholic enclaves -islands in the north-)In that case they turn themselves against the secular (atheist), humanist, Catholic, Protestant and Muslim democrats of my country. A lot of Muslims are secular and Pro-democracy too. Not all the Dutch muslims are fundamentalists like mister Wilders like to see or portray them! That religious future coalition worries me, because the " christian" appeasement in that case can increase the influence and dominance of Islam and muslims in some area's and fields in my country. (for instance in city area's or towns where there presence is dominant and in some cases they are the majority). If you compare it with a Muslim country or area, in the Palestinian territories I prefer the Secular Fatah (PLO) Westbank above the Fundamentalist Muslim Hamas and Islamic Jihad Gaza. Turkey and Marocco above Saoudi Arabia and Iran. This is not new to me since I heard this kind of statements from my from origin Polish mother (who lived in Poland from 1934 until 1967) saying in 1980 that this would turn wrong. She herself had integrated into the Dutch society, learned Dutch and had a " Dutch family". She was irritated and concerned about foreign getto's in the larger cities and the ethnic, cultural tensions that existed already then. She said then what was not possible to say then, but is normal to say now, but it is 30, 35 years to late! She talked about spreading foreigners instaid of allowing them to create ethnic getto's of Turks, Maroccans, Surinamese and Antillians (the largest groups back then and today). She said back then that they have to learn Dutch propperly, behave occordingly to the Dutch law and that the Dutch government should be there for the Dutch native citizens too, and not only being bussy with affirmative action, overly soft tolerance towards immigrants and turning a blind eye to what went wrong. She was right then and so what I state here I know for about 30 years or so! Minorities in Pre-war Poland, the Polish Catholic- Polish Jewish relationshipNow I am going to say some controversial or not political correct things, but I have to say them. Although Poland does not has an influx of Muslim immigrants, Poland stil can have or get difficulties with ethnic minorities of nearby neighbours. Poland first has to look at it's own past. Poland has had a long history of Polish (catholic majority) - (Polish) Jewish (minority) coexistence. There has to be said that there were problems and that part of the problems were due to the fact that large masses of jews weren't integrated, spoke a differant language, had differant customs and in fact had a segregated society. You had a Polish Catholic majority that spoke the West-slav Polish language of the country, and you had the Ashkenazi-Jews that spoke Jiddish (a German dialect with Hebrew and slav elements). Although these jewish masses were poor and not a great threat to society there is a resemblance witht the orthodox or conservative muslims in Western-Europe of today. Like the mosques the sinagogues looked differant and oriental to the native Polish people, the native farmers, townspeople and people of the cities did not understand Judaism like ordinairy Dutch people of today don't understand Islam, the spoken Mosque arabic, Turkish, Kurd or Persian. The Poles have therefor their history of migrants, ethnic minorities, etnhic (racial) tensions, discrimination, xenophobia and anti-semitism. Poland can therefor learn from it's past from the " Interbellum years" (1918-1939) of the Second Polish republic (between the two world wars) in which both the segregation system created and wanted by both Polish Jews and Polish Catholics brought division, and the " Economical Polonisation" politics ( buy only Polish Catholic goods, or the support of Polish Catholic businesses only) brought hardship towards the impoverished jewish masses (exept the 'partly' Polonised Jewish middle class and high class, of whom some converted to Catholicism or Protestantism). So Poland should learn from it's past when 10% of the Polish population was jewish, and when there were large German and Ukrainian minorities. How would Poland would coap with 10 to 20% of ethnic, cultural and religious minorities today? (A hypothetical case of a multi-cultural Poland in the near future, with large migrant Russian, Ukrainian, Israeli and Palestinian, Indian, Armenian, Vietnamese, Western-European Turkish, Maroccan, Albanian, Bosniak, German and French communities and Dutch farmers? ;D) Poland and it's Ukrainian and German minoritiesWe know the past and the painful differances and confrontations between Poles and Ukrainians (what both did to eachother). We also know about the ethnic tensions and troubles in the republics around Poland! For instance the treatment and troublesom coexistance of Slowakians and the Hungarian minority in Slowakia (which is discriminated like the Hungarian minority in Rumania). I know Poles and Hungarians can get along together well (since the Hungarian uprising in 1956 started as a solidarity protest with the Polish uprising in Poznan in 1956 before the Hungarian uprising). So I am sure the Poles know about the discrimination and maltreatment of Hungarians in Slowakia and Rumania. In the same time Poland probably knows about the discrimination of Polish compatriots in Germany and other Western-European countries where Poles work, study and live as minorities. (The discriminatory jokes and remarks in Europe about stupid Poles which reminds some about a history of 65 year ago, because the negative stereotype of the Pole is that of a thieve -of cars and bikes-, human being with a criminal nature, or consequently as being labeled differant -the slav language is strange, these slave language speaking people take our jobs and etc. They irritate me, in my sensebility as being a half Pole by blood and because they hurt my mothers feelings). Fortunately there is also the counterpart of the negative Polish stereotype, the positive stereotype of the hardworking and skilled Polish worker, the intelligent Polish student or artist in residence and the news of a Modern and recovering Poland! On the other hand Poland with it's small German minority has stil a sort of Germanophobia (Anti-German sentiment), which is understandable (concerning the past, with six million Polish casualties in the second world war, with 3 million Polish Catholics and 3 million Polsish jews), but in the same time troublesome in the present European Union. About the anti-German sentiment in PolandSome Poles perceive Germans as their long-time oppressors, dating back to the times of Teutonic Order. This notion is based on a long history of persecution of ethnic Poles, first by the German Prussians then by the united German state, starting with three partitions of Poland, germanization in the 19th and 20th centuries, and culminating in the Nazi Germany's invasion of Poland in 1939 and the genocide of six million Polish citizens that ensued during the German occupation 1939-1945. These mass murders focused both on the Jewish minority and the Polish intelligentsia.
Several issues have also strained recent Polish-German relations, although Poland and post-reunification Germany overall have had mostly positive relations. The Poles are suspicious of the campaign led by Erika Steinbach, a daughter of a German officer in the German forces occupying Poland, made famous for her voting against Oder-Neisse line borders, who seeks reparations for the property lost by Germans expelled by Poland following the Second World War and to create the Centre Against Expulsions. In addition, the proposed Russo-German pipeline through the Baltic Sea, is seen by Poles as aimed at cutting off Poland's natural gas supplies from Russia without damaging supply to Germany, and was even compared to the ignominious Molotov-Ribbentrop pact by Radosław Sikorski, Polish foreign minister.About the Russian immigration other Eastern-European immigrationPoland should also look at the Baltic states and Ukraine concerning it's Russian and Belarussian immigration. Russian minorities, which in some parts or regions of these countries are the majority (like Eastern-Ukraine) can cause problems for the National unity and stability of Poland if the Russian migration would turn towards mass immigration (when the prosporous Polish economy stands in contrast to the Russian economy for instance). Poland should and I am certain is monitoring the situation in Latvia, Estonia and Lithiania very carefully. On the other hand the Ukrainians, Russians, Belarussians and Germans could easily be assimilated or integrated into the Polish mainstream and in the same time put some flavor to the Polish society. For instance in the Netherlands Flemish Belgians, Germans and British people have delivered a great contribution to our society as Dutch intellectuals, scholars, teachers, professors and as Dutch speaking citizens. I know for instance three "German-Dutch" people (originally from Germany), and next to that have three friends who have German mothers. In the ninetees there was even an active policy of the Dutch government to encourage East-German workers and youth to come and settle in the east of the Netherlands, in which (Dutch) Saxon provinces there is a simular culture as in Germany. These East-Germans would have to undergo a strict Dutch language course and cultural introduction before they were allowed to settle (so it was a sort of transformation plan to make Dutch people out of Germans, simular to the New Jew assimilation policy of the Israeli's who make Israeli's out of Diaspora jews who make Alyia (-Jewish immigration to Israel). I never heard about that plan again! What I wanted to say, and you already stated that, I quote you: Finally Poland should learn from Western-Europe, the United-States, Canada, Australia, New Zealand and even the Multi-ethnic South-Africa. What mistakes made Western-Europe, and even though present day Poland is differant then the North-Western-European states of the sixtees and the seventees, how can Poland avoid the mistakes of these Western-Europeans in the (near) future (because Poland will change too, and will face some sort of secularisation proces too). The Polish immigration policy which makes immigration from Ukraine, Russia and Belarus much much easier than from elsewhere is a smart policy. If it has a moderation clause, which has restrictions, demands for adjustment to the Polish legal system, customs and respect for the Polish constitution (see the American system). I mention this to give you, my Polish friend, the warning and threatening example of Western-European countries like the Netherlands, Belgium, Denmark, Germany and France, which have huge internal problems due to segregation between native European citizens and migrant communities, who nearly live in differant states in the same state, due the not official declared, accepted or acknowledgement of the situation in our societies. Poland stil is the land of the majority of the native Poles, and Poland has respect for and treat it's minorities well. But avoid the situation of Western-Europe, the Baltic states and Ukraine (with it's Russian problem) and the bad example of Slovakia and Rumania (with it's Hungarian minority and it's problems with it's own Gypsy minorities). **Ethnic Polish immigrationThe rising tide of Poles arriving from Ukraine, Belarus, Russia and the Baltic states is exellent for Poland. In the same time Poland should be aware of the dangers, because you could have identity fraud and problems with people with the same ethnic background, but who grew up with customs from another country. These ethnic Poles should also accept and respect the rules, customs and constitution of the Polish republic (the nation of their ancesters they come back to). Look at the German example who allowed Volksdeutsche from the SovjetUnion to enter Germany although most of these people were just Russians with a German name who did'nt speak a word of German and don't understand the German culture and society. It is good that these " Polish immigrants" are treated exactly the same as Polish citizens and nationals, but please check them. There could be criminal elements among them, or Russified or Ukrainianised Poles, who are more loyal towards the Russian Federation and the Ukraine than to Poland. I know Dutch immigrants who moved to Germany, France, the USA, Canada and South-Africa, who first of all have a distorted image about the Netherlands, and secondly became Germans, French people, Americans, Canadians or South-Africans. They don't know present day Modern Netherlands, don't understand the present Dutch society (they have a Romantic, outdate image of the past), and aren't Dutch anymore. They speak Dutch with a very heavy foreign accent and are in fact foreigners with Dutch roots, and that is how they will be received by their country of origin. They aren't Dutch anymore, because they left the Netherlands decades ago. Their parents or grandparents were Dutch, or they were Dutch when they were teenagers or young adults. They choose a new life and fit better in the countries they are living now. Because they integrated and adabted themselves to their new fatherland. It is not that I don't respect these people or that these people are not nice people. These people are just as I said German, American or Canadian as the compatriots of the country they choose to immigrate too. The same will happen with the Urkainian or Belarussian Poles, who have an ethnic Polish culture that differs from Poland. Or am I wrong (please correct me then). You can not be naieve or sentimental about this, just because these people are supposed to be fellow Poles. If you offer them a chance to return they must be accepted as real Poles with equal status as Polish Poles and a normal citizenship! They were separated from Poland for 65 years. Look for instance at the differant natures of the Wessies (West-Germans) and Ossi's (East-Germans) who are until these day differant, due to the differant systems and countries they lived in. This is a mild remark not ment to be an anti Eastern-Poles comment. Sure let these compatriots in after you thoroughly checked them. Other migrationI don't know a lot about the Vietnamese and Armenians migration to Poland, but since they are with 1 million, you can speak about mass immigration. They have a differant culture and ethnic background than the Poles. That can be a cause for concern. From the other side I have heard about succesful integration of both groups in Western-Europe and Northern-America (the singers Cher and Charles Aznavour, the tennisplayer Andre Agassi, the American artist Arshile Gorky -his Armian name was Vostanik Manoog Adoyan-, the Russian chessplayer Garry Kasparov -Armenian mother and jewish father-, the armenian composer Aram Khachaturian and the Armenian-American heavy metal band System of a Down from Los Angeles, are Armenians for instance). My mother told me that in her adult warsaw time in Communist Poland (inbetween 1950 and 1967) that she knew a few foreigners who were Armenian, Bulgarian and Belgian. And that the Poles in her environment were quite open, tolerant and curious about these foreigners. They were seen as something positive as interesting and as normal fellow citizens. These people colleages and friends. My mother had also an Armenian girl in her class in Poznan after the war. That there is no mass Muslim immigration in Poland, is a good thing. And that they leave for France and the Netherlands is due to the fact that there are well established Muslim communities in these countries with Muslim community centres, mosques, shops, supermarkets and neighbourhoods. (you read my postings about the Netherlands. In France and Germany the Muslims have even older settlements). I think that Muslim immigration will substantially grow in the future, because Poland will be integrated in the EU, and I have the idea that future leaders will try to find a policy that spread Muslims over Europe to keep them a minority. The National leaders, European leaders and secret services are concerned about huge Muslim concentrations in the West. The Polish governments policy of not encouraging Muslim immigrants to immigrate is smart and logical on the short term, but I am curious if Poland can withstand the European pressure in the future. The Western-European countries have to large Muslim communities and are exhausted from the integration problems and the cultural and ethnic tensions in their societies. I am sure that the Future Federal European Union or government will have a spreading policy. If Poland receives quota demands and would bow to that Poland should avoid Western-European circumstances. Ofcourse I have nothing against German, French, British, American and Indian immigration to Poland, because these nationals pose no threat to Poland and would be good fo the Polish economy, because they bring in investment, content, knowledge and skills. The Indians are good for the Polish ICT sector. I wish the best for Poland, and Europe's future lies in a good mix of Native European natives and integrated or assimilated migrants who have become European citizens and Polish and Dutch patriots. ;D Pieter P.S.- What I forgot to mention was the danger of the influx of Russian crime with Russian immigrants. How about Russian maffia in Poland. Does the existance of Russian maffia in Poland create Polish crime or on the long term be the root of a Polish maffia. Or did and does the Polish anti-terror and heavy crime special police forces (SAS stile) did their job propperly and rooted out the Russian and (Russian-)Polish maffia?
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Post by pieter on Dec 9, 2009 16:03:59 GMT -7
Tuftabis, Before you get the impression that I am a ethnic Nationalist (Former Yugoslavia Chetnik or Ustaše stile ;D), rightwing, Dutch isolationalist, who thinks in rigid regional Social-darwininst terms and ethnic clensing. No, I like my own Pan-European heritage of being half Dutch and half Polish in birth and therefor being enriched by two nations and two cultures. Due to that fact I even consider myself a Calvinist-Catholic instaid of a Roman-Catholic (That means an mixture of my Dutch Freethinking liberal Fathers Protestantism and my mothers rich spiritual, cultural and intellectual Roman-Catholicism. Also due to my great dziadek and Babcia, aunts, uncles, cousins and nieces in Poland and America. My Polish-American cousins are 100% Polish because both their parents came from Poland and spoke Polish at home, so they are Polish and English speaking Americans). Their mother was the sister of my mother and so she was my American aunt from Chicago! Poland to me is a country in Central-Europe, the nation of part of my ancesters, a culture, with an art, literary and theatrical tradition (the Polish threatre had a great influence on Western theatre as a whole du to the influence of Polish theatre writers and theorists), classical music (Chopin, Wieniawksi, Szymanowski, Penderetski and Gorecki) and a country of whom history I am aware of. And it is a country with it's own language which has a sentimental value to me (due to the conversation of my mother with my babcia by phone and here occasional phone conversations with family and friends in Warszawa). This fact makes me multi-cultural, and not a nationalist. Patriot yes, Nationalist no! Most of my friends are cultural, artistic (artists; painters, sculpturists, graphical designers, photographers -my three best friends are photographer, and I am crazy about both art photography and photojournalistm, my largest book collection is my photography book collection-, theatre actors and directors, pop musicians, dj's, vj's [=video jocky's], classical musicians -my Dutch cousins are, from the classical music branch of the family, my cousin Edo Santman is both a talented musician, teacher and has his own recording company Otavo - www.ottavo.nl/ -, architects, art critics, curators, gallery owners, art historians, poets, writing journalists and poets, due to my own art academy background and my years as a professional artist in the ninetees; for a few years of my life I have been a fulltime artist with a studio), progressive people, who vote Socialist Party, Green Left, Labour, the Left-liberal D66 or are even Anarchists (squaters). They are multi-culturalist, and mostly anti-Wilders (PVV) and against the VVD and CDA, because they are rightwing (Their view is simple, they are rightwing so they are bad. Left is good, right is bad!). My views are more centrist than theirs, but I respect their views! I am fond of these leftist friends! Next to this fact I love the Netherlands as a multi-racial, multi-ethnic country with a cosmopolitian new culture. But I am also concerned about the changes this brings with it and the troubles we have. I stand behind what I said in this topic about immigration and in the topic about Swiss minarets and mosques. I like the fact for instance that there are about 800,000 people in the Netherlands of Indo (or Indo-European or Eurasian) background. They are an enrichment to our society like some of the present Armenians, Jews and Indians to Poland. And every generation mixes more with the Native Dutch population, because Indo women are attractive and often smart, and Indo men too (for Dutch women), because they have a nice cuisine, a cosy and well structured family life (the extended family is important, and kids often grow up not only with parents and brothers and sisters, but also with uncles and aunts and nephews and nieces, because the family ties are strong) and often are more Dutch than Dutch in their effort to assimilate and integrate. They are raised as Dutch patriots by their parents and grandparents, because they remember the discrimination of "Dutch" Eurasians by the Indonesians, the Japanese occupiers of Indonesia and the discrimination by the Dutch colonial regime in Indonesia before 1940 (so they were a distinct group who were rejected by the white Europeans and the Asian Javanese Indonesians, and I think that fact is settled deep into the Indo soul of the older Dutch Eurasian. That's why some of them wanted to be more Dutch than the Dutch!). Some Indo's stick to their Eurasian Indo culture which is destinct from the White native Dutch they call "blanda" (white Dutchman or Just white European). In my high school there were a lot of Indo girls and boys, and they mixed very well with the native Dutch kids. But when there was something serious concerning their community, a sudden death, accident, Indonesian or Indo thing they could suddenly be a exclusive group of Indo's on their own, and then you were a blanda or you felt like being a blanda. I was always in love with Indo girls due to their beauty, kindness, elegance, charm and cosyness. They were differant than some of the cool (cold) blond or brunette Dutch girls. Dutch Indo'sLoïs Lane - Amsterdammed Luv - You're The Greatest Lover (the Yellow girl is Indo) Golden Earing - Radar Love Marion Bloem, Dutch writer and fighter for immigrants rights (she looks like a girl I was in love with in high school) Next to this you have exellent Maroccan, Turkish, Surinamese and Antillian Dutch people who don't fit in the negative stereotype I gave in the Swiss minarets topic: I am a fan of the Dutch series Dunya & Desie about the friendship of a Maroccan and Dutch girl in Amsterdam, who know eachother their entire life: I like Maryam Hassouni (Amsterdam, September 21 1985) the Dutch-Maroccan actrice who plays the role of the Maroccan girl Dunya. Najib Amhali, exellent Dutch-maroccan comedian who makes fun of Maroccans and Dutch: In this fragment he makes fun of the rediculous, primitive way a Maroccan orders a bread shoarma dish in a Turkish shoarmo place after going out three 'o clock in the morning: Ali B (Maroccan hiphopper) and Marco Borsato (A Dutch-Italian) singer: (Both are involved with Warchild, an organistation that helps kids in countries with war and civil war, who are traumatized) Popular Dutch-Maroccan footballplayer Khalid Boulahrouz: (popular amongst Dutch Orange fans due to his efforts and craftmanship.) pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khalid_BoulahrouzAhmed Aboutaleb, mayor of Rotterdam, exellent former alderman of Amsterdam and state secretary of Social affairs of the Labour party (PvdA) en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahmed_AboutalebDutch-Maroccan writer Abdelkader Benali in discussion with Dutch-Turkish and Dutch-Maroccan students who study at the Calvinist-Protestant Free University in Amsterdam. This is a fairly progressive university, and the second university after the general University in the Amsterdam city centre, the UVA (University of Amsterdam). A Turkish female student says she went to the Free University, because the Utrecht university she first visited to check it out did not have any migrant students and therefor she did not feel at home there. The Free University (Vrije Universiteit) has more diversity of native Dutch and migrant students. The atmosphere is more multi-cultural there and the university has Islamic prayer rooms for more observant students. Benali asks the students why Turkish and Maroccan students only study law, economics and medicine and not for instance Dutch or philosophy. The pragmatic answer is that the students and their parents have the idea that they can earn more money with those subjects than the latter two. The same Turkish female student askes Abdelkader if he believes in God, his answer is that he is Agnostic: Literairy night in literary pub with writer Hafid Bouazza, who writes in an old Dutch stile of 17th century Dutch writer Joost van den Vondel, but in a today context, a rich poetic kind of proze: When the Dutch interviewer asks Hafid as what kind of animal he would like to return to be in the afterlife if he had no choice, he answered. This question I was asked before. To be honest I liked to come back as a mixture of a donkey and a deer. Nebahat Albayrak (born April 10, 1968 in Şarkışla) is a Turkish-Dutch politician in the Netherlands. She is the current State Secretary for Justice in the Netherlands. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nebahat_Albayrak
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Post by pieter on Dec 9, 2009 16:42:25 GMT -7
We had "Polish Landtag" in Poland even in modern times, Pieter. This was shortly after the 1989, when we started the fall of communism. We had some 20 parties in Sejm, some really strange and tiny. It was really hard to get some praliamentary consensus. But even with this hard parliamentary situation, plus Russian army still present in Poland Mazowiecki's government managed to change the course of Poland. Tufta, Yes Mazowiecki did a great and important job with his first free elected, post-communist government. It was a difficult task, which required some tough measures and a struggle with the stil present Communist state structure and bureaucracy I presume. It is not nothing to change a plan economy in a few years into a market economy. He made the start. Thank god the " Polish Landtag" situation with 20 parties in the Polish parlaiment is something of the past. Yes, from what you say VVD party seems quite sensible to me. However it seems more to the right, somewhere near your position Pieter. There you are wrong my friend, the VVD is in some cases to right for me, because in general I am inbetween the Laissez faire centre-right liberals of the VVD and the centre-left etatism of the PvdA (Dutch labour). The VVD is to much focussed on the Free market and entrepreneurs only! You could say then you belong to D66 the centre-left party inbetween PvdA and VVD. And that would be logical! There are good individual D66 politicians and entrepreneurs! But, no this party has to much Flip-flop politics and an inconsistant mix of social-cultural left and economical rightwing views. With Flip-flop I mean that D66 in the past always leaned first towards PvdA and a next time to VVD and CDA. Not out of pragmatic terms or coalition technical or opposition front forming reasons, but out of ideological changes and swings. I like a more stabile centrist party. Traditionally I am more centre-left, but as you mentioned and saw on the immigration and integration side I am more towards the right. But also the leftwing Socialist party has rightwing views on immigration and integration, Patriotic views and stand for the National Dutch history and heritage. It's leader even used the German word Heimat (fatherland), to underline his Patriotic stance. And he is reliable, because the Socialist Party (SP), was the first party in the early eightees who expressed the same views my mother expressed above here and the view I have on immigration (both in the Netherlands and Poland). I like the Socialist Party, my friends who vote for the party and the known Dutch pop-musicians, writers, leftewing clergymen (In my monastrygroup in the South, there are progressive Catholic monks who vote for the Socialist Party), I have sympathy for it's base, because the origin lies in the Catholic Southern Province of North-Brabant, and it's leader was raised and educated in Catholic schools and highschools. So socialism with a strong Catholic (corporatist or Catholic social labour movement) element in it. But I won't vote for them, because they are traditional leftwing, have a Maoist past (although most leaders don't have that past and are pragmatists). The VVD is to rightwing for me and unfortunately I don't have another party I feel connected too, so I am partyless. Should I start my own centrist party, the PPP (Pragmatic Political Party), a centrist, technocratic party like the Pre-war Sanacia in Poland? I am inbetween D66 and the VVD, precisely in the middle inbetween centre-left and centre-right, how more close to the middle you can't get! I admid that I owe a lot to the Social-democratic Labour party PvdA, who gave me political education, practical skills in the workgroups (youth group and the cultural committee I set up in Arnhem myself), election campaigns and the local city council course I followed and which in todays perspective of my radio journalist job was an exellent preparation for my present job as political reporter for the radio. I follow and meet the local politicians of the nine parties in the city council every week on monday evening and the aldermen on tuesday afternoon at the press hour in the city hall after the tuesday morning executive board of a municipality meeting, where I get to see the new files and the aldermen inform us. That is the good thing about the Dutch transparency of local government. But I am not a social-democrat either. When I think about my own fantasy party and centrist ideology, and I take my own surname Pluijgers, you could call my ideology Pluijgism, because I have my own firm mix of three centre ideologies of the three Purple coalition centre parties, PvdA, D66 and VVD. My personal view and ideology is a merger of the three, with acceptence and respect for the good views and ideas of the other respectable Dutch democratic parties who respect the Dutch consitution and parlaimentary democracy, the CDA (Christian-democrats), ChristianUnion (Christian politicians), GreenLeft (which turns more and more to be a Free thinking liberal party, from left to centre-left, which is good) and the Socialist party I just mentioned. I have nothing with the xenophobe and rightwing Populist PVV of Wilders, TON of Rita Verdonk or the Fundamentalist Protestant SGP. My ideal party would be a broad centrist merger o the centre-left of the VVD, D66, PvdA and GreenLeft in one Middle party, wether the PPP or a movement with antother name, does not matter. Luckily, in contrast with Poland you have a good and reliable (anti-communist) left in the Netherlands from left to centre-left. This is the first time in 21 years that I have difficulty in choosing a party. In march we have local elections! I have no idea what to vote and even consider the possibility of voting for one of the two local Arnhem parties, Pro Arnhem or Zuid Central (=South Central). It is very good you mentioned the two greatest Dutch thinkers Erasmus and Spinoza! You are rightly proud of them. I have read both and I do appreciate both. Their views are in no way contradictory to large part of my views, rather complementary. Besides, what I find infinite (never-dying) in their work is less related to transient politics but more to the special, distanced way of seeing reality, with great amount of criticism and intellectual liberty. This is my path too. I like Erasmus book The Praise of Folly (Greek title: Morias Enkomion (Μωρίας Εγκώμιον; Dutch title: Lof der Zotheid) which I read in Dutch. In Praise of Folly is considered one of the most notable works of the Renaissance and one of the catalysts of the Protestant Reformation. It starts off with a satirical learned encomium after the manner of the Greek satirist Lucian, whose work Erasmus and Sir Thomas More had recently translated into Latin, a piece of virtuoso foolery; it then takes a darker tone in a series of orations, as Folly praises self-deception and madness and moves to a satirical examination of pious but superstitious abuses of Catholic doctrine and corrupt practices in parts of the Roman Catholic Church—to which Erasmus was ever faithful—and the folly of pedants (including Erasmus himself). Erasmus had recently returned disappointed from Rome, where he had turned down offers of advancement in the curia, and Folly increasingly takes on Erasmus' own chastising voice. The essay ends with a straightforward statement of Christian ideals. Erasmus was a good friend of Sir Thomas More—another faithful Roman Catholic and detractor of Luther, with whom he shared a taste for dry humor and other intellectual pursuits. The title " Moriae Encomium" can also be read as meaning " In praise of More". The double or triple meanings go on throughout the text. The essay is filled with classical allusions delivered in a style typical of the learned humanists of the Renaissance. Folly parades as one of the gods, offspring of Plutos and Freshness and nursed by Inebriation and Ignorance, whose faithful companions include Philautia (self-love), Kolakia (flattery), Lethe (oblivion), Misoponia (laziness), Hedone (pleasure), Anoia (Madness), Tryphe (wantonness), Komos (intemperance) and Eegretos Hypnos (dead sleep). Moriae Encomium was hugely popular, to Erasmus' astonishment and sometimes his dismay. Leo X thought it was funny. Before Erasmus' death it had already passed into numerous editions and had been translated into French and German. An English edition soon followed. It influenced teaching of rhetoric during the later sixteenth century, and the art of adoxography or praise of worthless subjects became a popular exercise in Elizabethan grammar schools. Baruch de Spinoza for me is one of the greatest Dutch and European philosophers next to and after Erasmus, René Descartes, Gottfried Wilhelm Leibniz and before Immanuel Kant, the German philosopher who turned himself against the rationalism of Descartes, Leibniz and Spinoza (but stil was influenced by them). I have to admid that I read only the more modern philosophers like Emmanuel Levinas, Søren Aabye Kierkegaard, the Danish Christian existentialist, aphorisms of Arthur Schopenhauer and part of Nietsches Also Sprach Zarathustra. I know that the Polish philosopher Leszek Kołakowski has dedicated part of his life and his studies to Spinoza. He was especially interested in Spinoza's rational idea of God. Quotation from the Dutch Historic News Magazine: One of the greatest contemporary philosophers, Leszek Kolakowski, came to the Netherlands in the fiftees from Poland to make a study of the dissident christian groups whom existed in the 17th outside the official church: Chrétiens sans Eglise. In that line fitted Erasmus and Spinoza the international icons of the Dutch spiritual life, about whom every year one book after another arrives. Both were relatively outsiders. Erasmus was a critical, reform oriented Catholic priest who always remained loyal to the Roman Catholic church. In Deventer, Basel (Swiss) and Leuven he lived in the German Empire - The Netherlands didn't exist when he died in 1536 not yet -, but because he was born in Rotterdam, he is considered Dutch. Spinoza was the son of Portugese Sephardic jewish immigrants, who had developped a philosophy in his withdrown existance, who stil attracts a lot of intellectual attention. Links: pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erazm_z_Rotterdamupl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baruch_SpinozaOf course you are right about differences inside Central Europe. But I ment Poland in this respect. The Chechs but also Slovaks are generally non-believers, they were generally more fond about communism too. Also wew should remember about large and brave nations of Ukrainians and Russians where faith is strong. Pieter, looking at the world from Warsaw it is you, the West, with your laicite who is an exception to the rule, not the other way ;D Tufta, Do you think or mean like my Russian friends told me when I studied in Amsterdam that in the seventy years of Sovjet Communism there was a Sovjet human born, that you had believing Czech and Slowak communists, the Proletarian Sovjet being, Czech & Slowak version? And is there a rational link between the Czechs and Slowaks atheism or secularism and Communism? Why then were there so less communists in the West, while there are so many atheist and secularists in the West (=Western-Europe). Or was Communism in Europe replaced by leftwing secular socialism (Social-democracy and left liberalism), centrist centre-right liberalism and atheist rightwing conservatism? It is true that while Poles become more and more mentally free their connections with hierarchical Church loosens. But the faith does not, in my opinion. This is a difference I see. You mean that although some Poles get less church oriented (as institution and guide in their lives) they keep their personal Catholic faith in one way or another. By attending mass without taking the clergy and church institution not to serious, or by going less to chuch, but keeping the faith in their house, in their Polish traditions and as part of their Polish heritage? I think of my Polish grandparents, good oldfashionate, sophisticated, civilized, Upper Middle class Poles, Catholic, Polish bourgeoisie. People with strong moral and ethnical values, family oriented, with a lot of friends in Poznan and Warsaw where they came from and where a lot of grandfathers familymembers lived). She (my babcia) went to church every sunday and my grandfather (dziadek) did not went, because he did not care much about going to church, he prefered reading literature and a sunday walk nearby (or something like that). But stil he was a catholic and a decent man. A Polish patriot too, who refused to become a Communist party member after the war. And lost his position due to his principles. He got another less important job, but could live with that. That was sad and humiliating. But the good man could not think bad about people, because he was a kind gentleman. This my mother said was the reality of Polish catholicism. That you have a whole variety of Polish Catholics. Conservative Catholics, liberal catholics, progressive catholics, a catholic intelligentsia (Mazowiecki), secular Catholics even, and Protestant, Jewish, atheist (but as anti-communist like other Poles) and other kind of Poles. I like the Polish Catholicism of the past that I remember. The crowded easter and christmas masses at the Dominican church we went to in Poznan, with the singing monks and spiritual speeches with content (I believed it, every word they said, although I did not understand a word, because I watched the Polish worshippers, the expression on their faces -and the importance and the relief and support they got from their faith during the Communist opression- and the pretty Polish girls in the church ). Pieter
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Post by tuftabis on Dec 11, 2009 4:32:26 GMT -7
Wow, Pieter you have provided a three part reading feast here in parallel threads! Your knowledge about Poland is broad and well grounded, and what I find the most attractive in your, well, essays!, it is tinted with the Dutch, the moderate Westerner's mentality and mental habits, so to call them. It is of course natural and charming, and even inspiring - I can see this way the origins of some intellectual processes, views, stereotypes about non-West formed in the West. Your remarks about traps of immigration are well thought and excellently presented. There's no reason why Poland shouldn't use the wrong and the good examples of treating the problems of recent immigration in the West. However, we should remember that Poland has an excellent record of accepting and polonizing many, many waves of immigration. It was not done spontanously but required special policies. The most notable origins of immigrants to Poland in the past were the Germany, Italy, Russia (i.e. boyars escaping from Ivan the Terrible you mention elwhere!), Czechia, Tartars, Armenians, Greek, Dutch(!) and even Scotland, and many minor other. Apart from these, Polish culture is so attractive that large parts of Lithuanian nobility have polonized themselves voluntarily during the 400 years we jointly formed a volunatry interstate union. The same is valid for today Belarusins and Ukrainians, however this is hard to call 'immigration'. The union by the way may well serve as archetypic example of the present Union in Europe. The great Polish failure, which you mention too, is the failure to incorporate Jews into Polish society more. But this problem is complicated as you know and exceeds our present subject. To come back to it - you note that your wise mother said the today's mainstream things 30 years ago. Now think, how did she now that? She was the newcomer to Holland, to West, from some commie country behind the iron curtain and said some strange things. You know what I mean. The West is intellectually arrogant. And it is in fact uncapable to learn from the wisedom of non-West. And here she comes - an escapee from behind the Iron Curtain, who would listen to her. But today, just think where did you mother take the knowledge from. From her family conversations, from the books she read in Poland, from history lessons, films, and theater stages. She took it from her Polish background and mentality. All said. ;D ;D
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Post by tuftabis on Dec 11, 2009 9:47:53 GMT -7
Do you think or mean like my Russian friends told me when I studied in Amsterdam that in the seventy years of Sovjet Communism there was a Sovjet human born, that you had believing Czech and Slowak communists, the Proletarian Sovjet being, Czech & Slowak version? And is there a rational link between the Czechs and Slowaks atheism or secularism and Communism? Yes, the Homo sovieticus. I cannot say what was first, the atheism (not secularism, as Poland is not atheistic but secular as well) or this strange kind of liking the communism. However the situation is Czechia and Slovakia is not the same. The Czechia are an old (older than Poland!) state and a historic nation. They have had their gentry and peasants, upper, middle, lower classes and their history evolved togoether with the general history of Europe. Slovaks are the relatively new nation, which kind of evolved into self-consciousness as a nation inside Austro Hungarian Empire. Thanks to liberal rules of this empire. The parallel situation is to some degree valid for Belarusin nation-consciousness evolving inside Rzeczpospolita (Mind the opposite processes hapenning in Prussia or Germany, where nations lost their idenity). As a result of the relatively recent evolution the Slovaks form a nation which practically never had gentry, upper classes etc. Therefore they are in fact very egalitarian. Much more egalitarian than the Americans. As a result communism 'rang a familiar bell' for them. This is how I see it, I may be wrong of course. Well, the only explanaitions I can think of are the two. As I said earlier, atheism and communism do not neccessarily come together. Atheism is much earlier, as you know, and was used by communists as a means to 'mentaly' (and physically too...) exclude the greatest competitor of 'paradise on Earth'. Exclude God, and paradise in Heavens. Just as the Church sometimes cynically used the idea of the Eternal Paradise to abuse the dark masses, the communism abused them killing the idea of eternal life and makinf those masses prone to non-human, barbaric acts in the name of achieving 'eternal justice' on Earth. We know the practical outcome... The second explanation is ... perhaps there were not so much less 'real'i ideological communists in the West than East initially? ;D In fact in the past 20 years I get an impression there are more communists in the West than in the East, Pieter!
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Post by pieter on Dec 11, 2009 10:53:14 GMT -7
Wow, Pieter you have provided a three part reading feast here in parallel threads! Your knowledge about Poland is broad and well grounded, and what I find the most attractive in your, well, essays!, it is tinted with the Dutch, the moderate Westerner's mentality and mental habits, so to call them. It is of course natural and charming, and even inspiring - I can see this way the origins of some intellectual processes, views, stereotypes about non-West formed in the West. Tufta, You have to take into account that my knowledge about Poland was fed by a Polish family in Warsaw and Poznan that inspired my historian hunger and interest in "my Polish roots", being 50% Polish by birth, and so my visits to these two great Polish cities in the seventees, eightees and Warsaw in 2006 again. The moderate Polish Patriotism of my grandfather, who was a humanist in his heart and a typical Polish intellectual. I think that I inherited some of my Polish interest from him, but also from my babcia, with whom I communicated in German (because - that is my biggest failure- I can't speak Polish), my mother and people I met on the internet like you, Bunjo and Adam (both unfortunately left the Forum), Jaga, Pawian (Bonobo ;D), Zooba, Jerzy, and manny others. Especially the Polish Poles, but also some nice Polish-Americans. I always asked and ask my mother a lot about Poland, about her youth as a child, about the second world war (not to many questions though, because they as Varsovians had a tough time back then, with the segregation of the family and etc.), and a lot of questions about Post-war Stalinist and just plain Communist Poland, the grey, totalitarian time! I read the exellent book Polen, Tussen Oost en West (Poland, Between East and West) by the Dutch writer and historian L.A. van Vlijmen as a teenager, in which I made the first serious steps in Polish history, after the oral history I was given by my dziadek, babcia, mother, Dutch father. Next to van Vlijmens book on Polish history I read two exellent books of the Dutch author of Polish-Jewish descent Milo Anstadt, ( 1) Poland - Country, People, Culture, 1964 (In Dutch) and his second novel (2) Poles and Jews , (1989) (in Dutch too), about the Polish Jewish relationship in Poland during the times. Milo AnstadtSamuel Marek (Milo) Anstadt (born July 10, 1920 in Lwów) is a Dutch Jewish writer of Polish-Jewish origin. Biography He lived in Lwów until 1930, after which he with his parents and sister Sera emigrated to Amsterdam in the Netherlands. In Amsterdam he completed primary school but did not go to secondary school. In Amsterdam, which like Warsaw had a huge Jewish minority in the thirtees, he first went to an Orthodox Jewish school in which he was maltreated by the Jewish teacher there, and after that he went to a general primary school. When Anstadt was fourteen years old, he worked for the Transformatorfabriek Besra in Amsterdam, where he received mentoring and was helped to become more spiritually developed. Later, he received a masters degree in law from the University of Amsterdam, specializing in criminology. In 1941, he married Lydia Bleiberg, and they had a daughter in March of 1942. However, their daughter was sent to a foster family in Beverwijk. From 1945 to 1950, he was an editor for the magazine Vrij Nederland (which during the war was an underground newspaper). Next, he worked as a journalist with the Dutch Radio Union, and wrote the spoken parts of 1955 documentary programs for television such as In, Televisierechtbank, Spiegel der Kunsten ("Mirror of Arts") and Bezetting ("Occupation"). For the latter two, he received the 1960 Television Award of the Prince Bernhard Foundation. In 1960, he received the request from Wereldvenster Publishing to write a book about Poland. It was published in 1962 under the title Polen, land, volk, cultuur. As an employee of NRC Handelsblad, Anstadt wrote a large number of opinion articles. In 1994, he was appointed as a knight in the Order of Orange Nassau. Anstadt about the first episode of his lifeI was born in Lwów (Lemberg in Yiddish and German, Liviv in Ukrainian), a city with an outspoken Polish history, which isn't Polish anymore. I grew up there in a Jewish family, an assimileerd family from the mothers family side, which spoke Polish and considered itself to be Polish. My fathers side of the family was orthodox jewish, spoke Yiddish and was not fond of Poles or had not much in common with Poles. Lwów was a multi-cultural city back then with three main ethnic groups that made up it's population. One-third of the population was Polish, one-third was Ukrainian and one-third was jewish. We lived in an appartmentblock with exactly that percentages of inhabitant, 1/3 jewish, 1/3 Polish and 1/3 Ukrainian. We had a Ukrainian nanny who took care of me and my sister and the houshold. As a child I developped a double loyalty which created such deep roots that I after staying for for sixty years in the Netherlands did'nt disconnect myself from Poland and the Polish culture and the Jews and the EastJewish culture. It is therefor only natural that I stil speak both Polish and Yiddish. Lwow todayComment Pieter: Milo Anstadt has in all those years always resisted himself against the stereotype of the Poles as the main anti-semites or the idea that all Poles are anti-semites, but in the same time aknowledged that there was and is Polish anti-semitism. I talked with him two times over the phone about Poland, the Poles, the jews and Polish jewish relationships. He loves Poland, stil translates Polish documents, or Dutch language texts into Polish for Poles who aks him to do so for them. He travelled to Poland and has Polish friends. Due to the disorganized Communist Polish bureaucracy he never lost his Polish citizenship, although the Communists said they had removed his Polish citizenship. I quote Milo Anstadt: After the collapse of communism a new Polish ambassador came to The Hague and he made the connection with a few Polish migrants in the Netherlands. He told me once that the Polish communist authorities never made a great job or effert in erasing me as a Pole and that according to the file in the embassy I was stil in the possession of the Polish nationality.
'So if I understand the situation right I am entitled to a Polish passport,' I said. The embassador confirmed that and so I again got a Polish passport and as a consequence a double nationality. After twenty years I could visit my old fatherland again and even as a Polish citizen. I have to admid that this was a great exitement for me.Not everybody is concerned about to which nation he belongs, whel I do. Dutch people often give the impression that they don't care much about it. For me it is differant. It feels good to be Dutch and it also fel good to be a Pole. Maybe that has something to do with my jewish past?Back to the main storylineMy father(who was and is very interested in Polish history and who gave a lecture to his local Probus branch in his town Vlissingen [ www.probus-nederland.org/index2.html ] about Polish history in Dutch, I got a copy of his lectures - study - and learnt more about for instance the differance between the Upper Polish nobility, the Magnata, and the low country nobility Schlachtza, the Polish kings, the Polish Lituanian Commonwealth - the rich Polish Gothic culture, the influence of Italian Renaissance in Poland - the Italian painters, architects and sculpturers who work for the Polish Royal houses, and the German minority -burghers- of Polish towns and cities, who had craftmanship and were Polish citizens. (who had added good and bad elements to the Polish society of that time. A negative influence is that the German burghers who felt threatened by Jewish newcommers or Jewish communities, who often had the same skills, introduced or were for a great deal the source of anti-semitism in Poland. The main reason was competition. ( Like in Pre-war Netherlands the middle class, shopowners and larger luxery supermarkets were often in the hands of Catholic and Jewish Dutch people. There was a competition back then between the Catholic and Jewish middle class for that particular reason.) Exactly the same thing took place in medieval Poland, where the German burgher and the Jewish citizens were competitors. My father states or believes that the later Polish anti-semitism of some of the peasents, schlachtza and the church was influenced by this German minority. Anyway the Polish kings and high Nobility (Magnata) were the defenders of the "Polish jews" and the Ashkenazi and Sephardic immigrants that came from Germany, France and Spain. In the same time in the first centuries of Catholic Poland the Catholic Poland was developped and many Polish civilians of the town and cities, Polish farmers, low nobility and the church saw these newcommers as a threat to the Catholic Polish identity they were building. And the old Christian myth (used by both Protestants and Catholics in Europe by the way) that the Jews were the killers of Christ was also alive and kicking! (forgetting that the first christians, Jesus Christ, Mary, Josef and the Apostles were jews themselves, and that Christ was killed by the Romans). But before I go to far. This element of Polish history could often lead to heated debates in my family. In Arnhem, in Breda, in old circles of my fathers student Corporation, or just people who remembered and honoured the Polish role in the Second world war as Western-allies (in fact as the largest non anglo-saxon force on the side of the British, American and Canadian forces on the West-European front), these Dutch peope remember the Poles. One old student comrade of my father who was a Dutch(-Jewish) pilot in the British Royal Airforce told my father and mother at a Corporation meeting in Leiden (the city my father studied Colonial Indo-European-Law), when he heard my mother was of Polish origin, he had experianced the actions of the the Polish pilots in action, and that they were the best pilots, who shot the most German planes! Later I read A Minor Apocalypse of the Polish author Tadeusz Konwicki, translated in Dutch. It was in the same time deeply tragic and very humoristic in the typical Polish irony or sarcasm. I remember the Polish bizar humor of my Polish uncles in Poznan and Warsaw, who had an exellent taste of the best Polish intellectual humor possible. About Polish communism, about Russians, about Germans, about the Catholic church and etc. This mix of human intellect, family oral tradition, humor (in which in the same time an mild form of Polish selfmockery and stereotypes of communists, clergymen, German, Russians and jews - by the way without a trace of anti-semitism - existed and a deep analythical insight into the Polish psyche, society and history, and the literary, poetic and theatrical Polish tradition and modernity -the humor was contemporary, with in the same time a sense of what was going on on the other side of the Iron wall, that was the beauty and intelligent part of it. The segregation of the West via the wall, the system and the Sovjet presence did'nt split the Polish intelligent mind from the West. The Poles in their spirit, mindset and soul stayed a Central-European, Western, Cosmopolitan people rooted in the greater European culture and tradition they were and are part of. The mind could'nt be enslaved. All this I witnessed in the secret, or partly open dissident humor of Polish family, their friends, colleages and strangers who were part of that side of Poland). It was incredible what I witnessed in that Poland of the seventees and eightees. I saw the remains of the old Polish aristocracy and the old Pre-war intelligentsia from Poznan and Warsaw. In the appartement block in Poznan next to my grandparents one appartment room lived a very old Polish Countess (member of the Magnata class) with her husbant. She was a fragile old lady who spoke French fluently, and had a hard time understanding the new time and living in that one room appartment. On the country we went to a Polish earl, who was a Polish professor and a friend of my grandfathers pre-war Polish Schlachtza family. He was a very modest, quiet man who went with us children (me and my sister) into the woods to pick some mushrooms for dinner. Another familymember of us, an uncle was a theatre actor for the large Polish theatre in Poznan. He took me there to show his workplace. Like I already told you the Polish holy mass in the Dominican (monk) church was very special, because the church was beautiful (Polish baroc), and the singing exellent (a sort of Polish gregorian monk singing). That was something differant than the boring, modern, Catholic mass in my home town. After this I grew older, and I think I was 17 or 18 when I was in Poland for the last time in Poznan after my babcia died. I remember the atmosphere, the smell, the forms, the sounds, the people of that time very well. And the melancholy and sadness, due to the fact that we would'nt see Poland that much anymore, because our strongest connection was with my grandparents. And they were gone! As a young adult I went on my own into town for the first time, I went out, loved the bar mlechny, the state hotels (Orbiz) (we could afford as Westerners), and enjoyed the old city centre, the old streets with it's atmosphere of German Jugendstil, Polish Classicism, Baroc and Gothic stiles, the very affordable Polish cinema's, the Zoo, the Sam (communist state supermarkets), the art galleries on the old market square and the art centre there, the Polish museums with old Polish and Dutch, Flemish and Italian paintings (I was suprised how much Dutch paintings are in Poland and the rest of Europe), the city parks, the Citadel (where large German-Russian battles took place in the final stage of the second world war, with it's large impressive Sovjet memorial and the old plane museum). I saw the remains of my mothers old family and her friends. I met the uncles, aunts, cousins, friends and some of the colleages of my mother. I saw how developped, educated and sophisticated the Poles were, although the system which was enfored upon them hold them back. I saw that they kept a strong social network, a strong cultural life, a well established black market (which was necassery), that they kept pre-war traditions alive and kept their dignity and civilization although the proletarian, symplistic system of the primitive collectivists outside there opressed their civil liberties, freedom, democracy and right to progress and development. it is tinted with the Dutch, the moderate Westerner's mentality and mental habits, so to call them. It is of course natural and charming, and even inspiring - I can see this way the origins of some intellectual processes, views, stereotypes about non-West formed in the West. I don't know how to correctly answer this. I have to be modest in my answer, and I tried to explain above here how much I am influenced by my Polish Polish family (from Poland), my Polish-Dutch mother, their oral tradition, the translated Polish literature I read, history books and the history department of the encyclopedia I could get. Next to all the English, Dutch, German and even French documentries I could see and hear about Poland (even though I am not very good at french, it's my worst language - I can't write it, can't read it, but understand a little - the broader message- -), and the many Polish language material I was provided here on this and other forums (the sound, the sound of Polish language, I have to hear it to stay connected, to kep the feelin with it, even though I don't speak, read or understand it. Fortunately there is a lot of Polish spoken word with subtitles). A certain Diaspora Polishness is settled in me, which distinguishes me from the (100%) Dutchness that surrounds me in the Netherlands. The Dutch element in me is the fact that I have lived, studied and worked here in the Netherlands 40 years of my life. That I love this country, although I am critical towards some things which are settled or characteristic about the Dutch culture in general. Sometimes I think my mentality is more general European or Cosmopolitan Central-European then Dutch. You could see me somewhere inbetween the Dutch, German, Czech, Hungarian and Polish cultures, I feel at home inbetween these cultures, whcih I have visited. By the way my last visit to Poland to Krakow in 2004 was the best visit to Poland, because I witnessed the best mix of Polish tradition and culture with the best Modern Poland has to offer, beautiful Modern architecture, Research institutes (connected to the Jagiellonian University), the art and culture of the city, the good mentality of the Krakovians (hospitable, polite and good manners), and the exellent infrastructure between Wroclaw and Krakow (modern highways, German/french stile). It gave me a good feeling and the thought, Poland is a good country with a good economy and it is the Western country it actually always was! In 2006 I visited Warsaw, and stayed at the place of a friend of my mother, who was a Polish ambassadors wife (of an African country), and stayed at their appartment in the embassy quarter of Warszawa. I got the same feeling in Warsaw, the city was clean and Modern, and there was a nice mix of a Modern city centre with skyskrapers around the Palace of culture and the rebuilt old town in the North of the city. I stayed in the city for a week and explored the city! I have to admind that I find Krakow more beautiful, but the fact that Warsaw is the city where my family (mother, babcia, dziadek and aunt) lived in Mokotow, and stil some of them (I don't know these relatives personally unfortunately) live (or lived, because I don't know it they are stil alive and of their offspring live in the city or moved to other parst of Poland or Western countries -like many of the pre-war and post-war Polish intelligentsia did). Therefor my connection to Poland is more a personal one with abstract, realistic, melancholic (atmospheric and sentimental romantic), historical and pragmatic layers, if you can call it like that? The question was how Dutch I am and how Dutch my essays or articles are? I feel a strong Polish element or better a strong Central-European element in that, because I have been to Berlin, Prague, Budapest and Vienna too, and am also influenced by the Bohemian (Czech), German (Kafka, Dürrenmatt, Heinrich Böll, Heinrich Heine and Gunther Grass, Kurt Weil music and German cinema) and Austrian culture, because German is my third language (which I can read, write and communicate with. German and English where my communication tools in Poland in the past). I watch German television a lot (especially the literairy show Das Literarische Quartett on ZDF presented by Marcel Reich Ranicki from march 1988 until december 2001 ( pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marcel_Reich-Ranicki ) and der Zeugen des Jahrhunderts (witnesses of the century) also ZDF) and love German cinema next to Polish, French, Spanish, Italian, British and Israeli cinema. This next to the American quality cinema (Woody Alllan, Stanley Kubrick, David Lynch, David Cronenburg and etc.). But a force or influence equally counteracting another is the fact that I come from a Francophone and Anglophile family, and therefor I watch TV5 (french television with hurray, thanks to the European Union Dutch subtitles) and the BBC quite often (I am extremely fond of British - bizar - humor) So how Dutch am I really? (By the way I am ill this week, so that's why I have so much time to write on my laptop in my bed, via my wireless internet connection!) Your remarks about traps of immigration are well thought and excellently presented. There's no reason why Poland shouldn't use the wrong and the good examples of treating the problems of recent immigration in the West. However, we should remember that Poland has an excellent record of accepting and polonizing many, many waves of immigration. It was not done spontanously but required special policies. The most notable origins of immigrants to Poland in the past were the Germany, Italy, Russia (i.e. boyars escaping from Ivan the Terrible you mention elwhere!), Czechia, Tartars, Armenians, Greek, Dutch(!) and even Scotland, and many minor other. Apart from these, Polish culture is so attractive that large parts of Lithuanian nobility have polonized themselves voluntarily during the 400 years we jointly formed a volunatry interstate union. The same is valid for today Belarusins and Ukrainians, however this is hard to call 'immigration'. The union by the way may well serve as archetypic example of the present Union in Europe. The great Polish failure, which you mention too, is the failure to incorporate Jews into Polish society more. But this problem is complicated as you know and exceeds our present subject. Tuftabis, Both in the Pilsudski pre-war Sanacia ideological thought and pragmatism and today's Polish centrist foreign politics I see elements of the Polish-Lithuanian Commenwealth Union. The present day more subtle diplomatic approach does not hinder the fact that Poland wants good relations with it's closest neighbours in Central- and Eastern-Europe. I quote the The Visegrad website: The Visegrad Group (also known as the " Visegrad Four" or simply " V4") reflects the efforts of the countries of the Central European region to work together in a number of fields of common interest within the all-European integration. The Czech Republic, Hungary, Poland and Slovakia have always been part of a single civilization sharing cultural and intellectual values and common roots in diverse religious traditions, which they wish to preserve and further strengthen. ( www.visegradgroup.eu/main.php?folderID=862 ). I don't know much about the Polish relationship with the Urkaine and the Baltic states, but I have the impression that the Polish-Ukrainian and Polish-Baltic relationships are better than in the past of the early 20th century. Poland was and is an advocate of the Ukrainian membership of the European Union and NATO, and therefor the social-economical, financial and political integration of a Democratic Ukraine in the EU. The ethnic and cultural multi-ethnic mix Poland is although it's religious uniformity is the fact due to the historical migration and present migration of the many differant groups you mentioned. My mother once said, you don't have a typical Polish look or characteristic, because the Polish people are very diverse. You have the Northern-European blond type ( I saw some very pretty Polish blondes in Poznań, Warszawa and Krakow, who could be lets say Danish), the Southern-European brunette type (more Spanish, Italian or French brunette looking Polish women), and some black haired beautiful oriental looking women and girls with dark eyes (Jewish, Armenian, Bulgarian or Persian looking) who were just Polish (I don't know if some of the slavs have oriental or Persian looks), Anglo-Saxon like Redheads and people inbetween all the types I described here. So from the little practice I have in Poland I agree with my mother (from my Krakow and Warsaw experiances in 2004 and 2006). The great Polish failure to incorporate Jews into Polish society more was not only a Polish failure Tuftabis, because I saw the same problem in New York where there really was a sort of intolerant mass of Ultra-orthodox jews who is intolerant and blunt towards non jews, and libera, conservative and Reform Judaism. I witnessed it and other people witnessed it in New York. I have jewish friends who were discriminated or labeled less jewish by the Ultra-orthodox or even orthodox. A jewish girlfriend of mine (liberal and secular herself) left an Orthodox Sinagogue due to the intolerant and (in her eyes) shocking things she heard there. (they were not much differant from the extremist messages from the Dutch mosques I told you about in one of my postings). The same extremist messages are heard in some of the (radical) orthodox-Protestant churches in the Dutch bible belt, who from their anti-revolutionairy fiath and ideology reject the secular state, because they demand, desire or wish for a biblical, Calvinist theocratic state. And you know as I know that even Israel, the Jewish state has difficulties with the Ultra-orthodox extreme-National-religious zionist movement (todays wild Zealots of the uncontrolable Settler movement) and the anti-zionist Ultra-orthodox sects that riot on sabbath against the secular jews who drive their cars or go to the cinema. This problem is complicated as we know, but in my eyes is linked to the present subject, due to the simularities of the problems with the Utra-orthodox jews in these countries and the Muslims in the West, which religion and customs are rooted or derivative from the Jewish Orthodox faith (the mosque, the prayer to Mecca, the way they pray and the strict monotheism is rooted in Judaisdm, due to the fact that Mohammed used Jewish and christian elements in his new faith, and merged them with elements of the Arab polytheist desert faith, from which he took the head God Allah and the Kabaa.). So in future Muslim immigration to Poland, Poland can learn from it's past with Orthodox jewish Shtetl (Jewish towns). An Orthodox jewish Shtetl in Pre-war PolandA Secular State? - IsraelJudaism Divided - Israel/PalestineThis will happen to Dutch, Belgian, French, British, Danish and German city areas, neighbourhoods and subburbs when orthodox Muslims would become the majority there and demand Islamic customs on their environment and start to be intolerant towards non-Muslims, Muslims who aren't orthodox or conservative enough or secular muslims. So like in Israel and some parts of New York city and state, this can happen in Western-Europe too! And the orthodox of differants religions are always prepared to cooperate if they can beat or to surpass the reasonable bounderies from what is possible in coexistence and mutual respect between people and communities. The secular people and moderate religious (liberal and moderate conservative believers) have to take care of their interests, defend their rights and territory (boundaries), and use political means, the social power they have (groups, movements, political parties, property rights and common means) to stay put and draw a line. (Until here and no further!) For instane how to create a Polish European Islam in the case of mass Muslim settlement in the future! That is possible, due to the existance of the Polish Tartar Islam, with it's two green, wooden mosques! To come back to it - you note that your wise mother said the today's mainstream things 30 years ago. Now think, how did she now that? She was the newcomer to Holland, to West, from some commie country behind the iron curtain and said some strange things. You know what I mean. The West is intellectually arrogant. And it is in fact uncapable to learn from the wisedom of non-West. And here she comes - an escapee from behind the Iron Curtain, who would listen to her. But today, just think where did you mother take the knowledge from. From her family conversations, from the books she read in Poland, from history lessons, films, and theater stages. She took it from her Polish background and mentality. All said. ;D ;D Tuftabis, Yes, I agree with you that Western-Europea is intellectually arrogant, I say Western-Europe instaid of the West like you mentioned it, because in my view Poland is part of the West. Poland isn't the East or Central-Europe in a cosmopolitan view or global view, because due to the fall of the Berlin wall, the East-West thinking was replaced by a new phenomenon, the North-South thinking. The Communist threat was gone and the new threat or enemy is the Islam. Although that is not said openly by the Western leaders, they called it Terrorism, Islamofascism or the Islamist ideological radical-islamic extremist minority within the Islamic world amonh the Muslims. This Western-European intellectual arrogance is pointless if you compare the intelligentsia's of central-Europe and Western-Europe. Poland from it's dissident movement, structures and people to it's post-communist democratic education system and new generations of free academics, intellectuals, students, journalists, writers and scientists, has not less intelligent people or a backward intellectual base, it has the benefit of both. The merger of the old core or guard of dissidents and the new generations that are freed from Communist influence, because they were born in the eightees, studied in the ninetees and worked in the end of the 20th century and the last nine years in the New democratic and free Poland. If you read my previous statements in this posting you can read that I have a great admiration and respect for the Polish intellect during the Polish Peoples republic and the present day Poland. My remarks are political or in the form of an exchange of views (advisory maybe). We can learn from eachother is what I want to say with my postings, and I have to use a lot of words and sentences to make my message clear, because this complicated topic of immigration, integration, tolerance (to much tolerance, to soft political correct affirmative action or to less tolerance and a lack of respect? How to find the balance so that the original native European culture in each country can remain where it is and keep it's legitimate identity and territory?). How can we Western-Europeans with our so called intellectual arrogance teach the Central-Europeans and Eastern-Europeans a migration history lesson when we FAILED IN THE RECENT PAST, and even WE ARE STIL DOING IT WRONG (or our leaders stil don't get it!). Only I as a subjective individual and some other Western-European " dissidents" from a migration point of view can warn our Central-European and Eastern-European brethern and sisters not to make the same mistakes we made with our Western-European arrogance, with that stupid pointing finger. Again I say, Poland learn from your own past in the Interbellum, the Communist system, Polish immigration to Western-Europe and Northern-America (how were Poles received, how did Poles integrate or assimilate there or did not assimilate), how did the Polish government deal with the Jewish masses in Pre-war Poland during the Sanacja regime and during the Colonels regime after that? How is the relationship between the todays 30.000 Polish muslim minority and the Catholic Polish majority that surrounds them? And etc. I think that we probably agree that if Poland attracts Poles from the Baltic states, Ukraine, Belarus and the Russian Federation that that element assimilates easily with the Polish Poles. And in that respect it is clear why they are not considered as immigrants, because they are ethnic Poles, who are Roman-Catholic, Polish speaking-, writing and reading compatriots who can merge with the majority of Polish Poles in Poland. The Ukrainians, Russians and Belarussians can ad to the Slav character of Poland, and in the same time can easily learn to speak, read and write Polish to be able to live, study and work in Poland to make a better life for themselves and their families and to contribute to the common good of the Polish society, economy, culture and nation or country! The Orthodox-christian church can add to the religious diversity in Poland and is not a threat to the Polish Roman-Catholic church and the Catholic culture of most Poles. Pieter
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Post by pieter on Dec 11, 2009 13:40:20 GMT -7
Do you think or mean like my Russian friends told me when I studied in Amsterdam that in the seventy years of Sovjet Communism there was a Sovjet human born, that you had believing Czech and Slowak communists, the Proletarian Sovjet being, Czech & Slowak version? And is there a rational link between the Czechs and Slowaks atheism or secularism and Communism? Yes, the Homo sovieticus. I cannot say what was first, the atheism (not secularism, as Poland is not atheistic but secular as well) or this strange kind of liking the communism. However the situation is Czechia and Slovakia is not the same. The Czechia are an old (older than Poland!) state and a historic nation. They have had their gentry and peasants, upper, middle, lower classes and their history evolved togoether with the general history of Europe. Slovaks are the relatively new nation, which kind of evolved into self-consciousness as a nation inside Austro Hungarian Empire. Thanks to liberal rules of this empire. The parallel situation is to some degree valid for Belarusin nation-consciousness evolving inside Rzeczpospolita (Mind the opposite processes hapenning in Prussia or Germany, where nations lost their idenity). As a result of the relatively recent evolution the Slovaks form a nation which practically never had gentry, upper classes etc. Therefore they are in fact very egalitarian. Much more egalitarian than the Americans. As a result communism 'rang a familiar bell' for them. This is how I see it, I may be wrong of course. So the the Homo sovieticus existed, probably in Eastern-Europe, Central-Europe (Slovakia) and Western-Europe with it's Moscow loyal Communist parties, Maoist communist parties (the Sino-communist Homo sovjeticus) and some non-communist socialists who in their naievity saw in Moscow, the communist eastblock countries and Cuba the workerparadise and the Communist road to the socialist egalitarian society with the apostles Fidel and Che. Did atheism entered Europe with the The French Revolution (1789–1799), with it's attacks against the Roman-Catholic church, massaces of french priest and the destruction of churches? Many prominent German philosophers of the 19th century denied the existence of deities and were critical of religion, including German philosopher and anthropologist Ludwig Feuerbach, the atheistic pessimist philosopher Arthur Schopenhauer, the philosopher, political economist, historian, political theorist, sociologist, communist, and revolutionary Karl Marx, and philosopher and classical philologist Friedrich Nietzsche. Atheism probably already existed in Greek phiolosophy, among non religious tribes who had a customs and survival based system instaid of religion before the first forms of socialism or communism existed. Thomas More's book Utopia (1516), was the first kind of description of an ideal Socialist society or Communist state. The Russian Mir (in Russian, means both peace and world) (commune) The communal land ownership of the Mir predated serfdom and survived emancipation and even the Russian Revolution (1917). In imperial Russia, the vast majority of Russian peasants held their land in communal ownership within a mir community, which acted as a village government and a cooperative. Arable land was divided in sections based on soil quality and distance from the village. Each household had the right to claim one or more strips from each section depending on the number of adults in the household. The purpose of this allocation was not so much social (to each according to his needs) as it was practical (that each person pay his taxes). Strips were periodically re-allocated by the mir's council on the basis of a census, to ensure equitable share of the land. This was enforced by the state, which had an interest in the ability of households to pay their taxes. Still, the 19th century European socialist movement looked to this arrangement as evidence that Russian peasants had a history of socialization of property and lacked bourgeois impulses toward ownership. Communal ownership of land under the Mir system is widely recognized as problematic, with soil overuse and disincentives of households to care for the land and increase harvests year to year as well as an inability to establish economies of scale. Plato's StatePlato's philosophical views had many societal implications, especially on the idea of an ideal state or government. There is some discrepancy between his early and later views. Some of the most famous doctrines are contained in the Republic during his middle period, as well as in the Laws and the Statesman. However, because Plato wrote dialogues, it is assumed that Socrates is often speaking for Plato. This assumption may not be true in all cases. Plato, through the words of Socrates, asserts that societies have a tripartite class structure corresponding to the appetite/spirit/reason structure of the individual soul. The appetite/spirit/reason stand for different parts of the body. The body parts symbolize the castes of society. * Productive Which represents the abdomen. ( Workers) — the labourers, carpenters, plumbers, masons, merchants, farmers, ranchers, etc. These correspond to the " appetite" part of the soul. * Protective Which represents the chest. ( Warriors or Guardians) — those who are adventurous, strong and brave; in the armed forces. These correspond to the " spirit" part of the soul. * Governing Which represents the head. ( Rulers or Philosopher Kings) — those who are intelligent, rational, self-controlled, in love with wisdom, well suited to make decisions for the community. These correspond to the " reason" part of the soul and are very few. According to this model, the principles of Athenian democracy (as it existed in his day) are rejected as only a few are fit to rule. Instead of rhetoric and persuasion, Plato says reason and wisdom should govern. As Plato puts it: " Until philosophers rule as kings or those who are now called kings and leading men genuinely and adequately philosophise, that is, until political power and philosophy entirely coincide, while the many natures who at present pursue either one exclusively are forcibly prevented from doing so, cities will have no rest from evils,... nor, I think, will the human race." (Republic 473c-d) Plato describes these " philosopher kings" as " those who love the sight of truth" (Republic 475c) and supports the idea with the analogy of a captain and his ship or a doctor and his medicine. According to him, sailing and health are not things that everyone is qualified to practice by nature. A large part of the Republic then addresses how the educational system should be set up to produce these philosopher kings. However, it must be taken into account that the ideal city outlined in the Republic is qualified by Socrates as the ideal luxurious city, examined to determine how it is that injustice and justice grow in a city (Republic 372e). According to Socrates, the " true" and " healthy" city is instead the one first outlined in book II of the Republic, 369c–372d, containing farmers, craftsmen, merchants, and wage-earners, but lacking the guardian class of philosopher-kings as well as delicacies such as " perfumed oils, incense, prostitutes, and pastries", in addition to paintings, gold, ivory, couches, a multitude of occupations such as poets and hunters, and war. In addition, the ideal city is used as an image to illuminate the state of one's soul, or the will, reason, and desires combined in the human body. Socrates is attempting to make an image of a rightly ordered human, and then later goes on to describe the different kinds of humans that can be observed, from tyrants to lovers of money in various kinds of cities. The ideal city is not promoted, but only used to magnify the different kinds of individual humans and the state of their soul. However, the philosopher king image was used by many after Plato to justify their personal political beliefs. The philosophic soul according to Socrates has reason, will, and desires united in virtuous harmony. A philosopher has the moderate love for wisdom and the courage to act according to wisdom. Wisdom is knowledge about the Good or the right relations between all that exists. Wherein it concerns states and rulers, Plato has made interesting arguments. For instance he asks which is better - a bad democracy or a country reigned by a tyrant. He argues that it is better to be ruled by a bad tyrant, than be a bad democracy (since here all the people are now responsible for such actions, rather than one individual committing many bad deeds.) This is emphasised within the Republic as Plato describes the event of mutiny onboard a ship. Plato suggests the ships crew to be in line with the democratic rule of many and the captain, although inhibited through ailments, the tyrant. Plato's description of this event is parallel to that of democracy within the state and the inherent problems that arise. According to Plato, a state which is made up of different kinds of souls, will overall decline from an aristocracy ( rule by the best) to a timocracy ( rule by the honorable), then to an oligarchy ( rule by the few), then to a democracy ( rule by the people), and finally to tyranny ( rule by one person, rule by a tyrant). Communism and Fascism in EuropeThe strange kind of liking the communism exist in East-Germany, and probably some parts of Eastern-Poland (in which people who worked on collective farms or state companies lost their jobs), Moldavia (communist state), Slovakia and in Italy and Spain where you always had strong Communist parties due to the poralised societies with far right fascism and the far left respons (In Umbria near Perugia I saw the jellow Hammer and sickle on a red background on a house, which was the party headquarters of that village) and parts of poor area's in Western-Europe with huge unemployment (in which Communism or Left populism, like the German Linkspartei, often compete's with the far right, who also use Marxist anti-capitalist rethorics). It is funny interesting that you mention the differances between the Czechs and Slovaks. I always felt more connected to the Czechs then the Slovaks, with whom I have nothing in common and of whom I did not like the treatment if their Hungarian minority. And I remember Slowakia's past: Slovakia seceded from Czecho-Slovakia in March 1939 allying itself, as demanded by Germany, with Hitler's coalition. The government of the First Slovak Republic, led by Jozef Tiso and Vojtech Tuka, was strongly influenced by Germany and gradually became a puppet regime in many respects. Most Jews were deported from the country and taken to German labour camps. Thousands of Jews, however, remained to labor in Slovak work camps in Sered, Vyhne, and Nováky. Under Tiso's government 83% of Slovakia's Jewish population, a total of 75,000 individuals, were murdered. Tiso became the only European leader to actually pay Nazi authorities to deport his country's Jews. Slowak leader Tiso with HitlerSlowak Priest-lieder Josef TisoJozef Tiso (13 October 1887 – 18 April 1947) was a Slovak politician of the SPP and priest, who became the fascist leader of the WWII Slovak Republic, a satellite state of Nazi Germany existing between 1939 and 1945. After the end of World War II, Tiso was convicted and hanged for his activities in support of nazism and treason.Why then were there so less communists in the West, while there are so many atheist and secularists in the West (=Western-Europe). Or was Communism in Europe replaced by leftwing secular socialism (Social-democracy and left liberalism), centrist centre-right liberalism and atheist rightwing conservatism? Well, the only explanaitions I can think of are the two. As I said earlier, atheism and communism do not neccessarily come together. Atheism is much earlier, as you know, and was used by communists as a means to 'mentaly' (and physically too...) exclude the greatest competitor of 'paradise on Earth'. Exclude God, and paradise in Heavens. Just as the Church sometimes cynically used the idea of the Eternal Paradise to abuse the dark masses, the communism abused them killing the idea of eternal life and makinf those masses prone to non-human, barbaric acts in the name of achieving 'eternal justice' on Earth. We know the practical outcome... The second explanation is ... perhaps there were not so much less 'real'i ideological communists in the West than East initially? ;D In fact in the past 20 years I get an impression there are more communists in the West than in the East, Pieter! Now I will answer to your two explenaitions you could think of. You are absolutely right atheism and communism do not neccessarily come together. You have had the anti-communist Polish-Jewish (Bund) socialist Marek Edelman for instance, and the Polish philosopher and historian of ideas Leszek Kołakowski (which I already mentioned in connection to Erasmus and Spinoza) and former dissident Adam Michnik. Yes, Atheism was used by communists to "prove" Religion was opium for the people, and something the previous Bourgeois Reactionairy Fascist aristocrats and Capitalists used to enslave the working class. Do I manage to use the Communist vocabulary right here? Yes, both the Communists and the Church abused the masses, but I don't know who made more victims, the Communists in the 20th century and the nearly 2000 year existance of the Roman Catholic church (from Saint Peter until Pope Benedict XVI). The Inquisition, the crusades, the instigated progroms against jews, the burning of so called Protestant heretics in the Netherlands by the Catholic Spaniards during the eighty years war. The burning of witches in Europe and the collaboration of fascist Catholic branches of the Church with the Nazi's (Slowaks, Croats, Germans, Austrians, Hungarians, French, Belgians and Dutch) in contrast with the heroic resistance of many Polish and Dutch priests, bisshops and ordinairy Catholics. German Roman Catholic clergymenAloysius Cardinal Stepinac, who led the Catholic Church in Croatia during the Second World War Ante PavelicPavelic meets HitlerThe Croatian Catholic cardinal Aloysius Viktor Stepinac shakes hands with fascist Coratian leader Ante Pavelicwhispersintheloggia.blogspot.com/2009/04/heil-father.htmlNot only in the past 20 there were probably more communists in the West than in the East, Tuftabis! In the 20th century there was mass support for Communism in Germany, France, Spain, Italy, Portugal, Greece (look at the Greek civil war between Communists and Monarchists at the end of the Second world war), Great-Britians Marxists within Labour and the Unions and the Far left in the Scandinavian countries. In the Netherlands the Communist CPN party gained great respect, because it was the only part that became a resistance movement, and for it's role in the protest against the arrest of jews in Amsterdam in 1941. But in the Netherlands the Communists never became that big as for instance in France, Italy or Germany. Links: pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/W%C5%82oska_Partia_Komunistycznapl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francuska_Partia_Komunistycznapl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Die_Linkepl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Die_Linkspartei.PDSpl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Komunistyczna_Partia_Niemiecpl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partia_Socjalistyczna_%28Holandia%29Pieter
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