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Post by pieter on Dec 22, 2009 5:56:46 GMT -7
What is your comment on the PiS criticism on the PO in the government? What do you mean with the exchange of their respective leaders? Is Tusk popular enough to have a chance to become the president. PiS criticism is harsh but not total as the postcommunist do. By exchange of the leaders I ment that both Jarosław Kaczyński and Donald Tusk quit being the leaders of their parties. Yes, Tusk's chances are presently the highest. He would make a good president, and he would stop being the head of PO, two in one ! ;D Tufta, How big is the chance that Jarosław Kaczyński and Donald Tusk will quit being the leaders of their parties. And how big is the chance that President of the European Parliament, Professor Jerzy Buzek will quit his presidency to become the Prime-Minister of Poland again! How popular is he in Poland and do you think the Polish voters share your desire for a Buzek administration? Pieter
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Post by tuftabis on Dec 22, 2009 6:53:08 GMT -7
And how big is the chance that President of the European Parliament, Professor Jerzy Buzek will quit his presidency to become the Prime-Minister of Poland again! How popular is he in Poland and do you think the Polish voters share your desire for a Buzek administration? Pieter, you have asked for a dream government with a theoretical assumption that all politicians are available. In reality they are not, of course. ;D
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Post by tuftabis on Dec 22, 2009 7:03:47 GMT -7
So you agree with me that it hasn't been carried out yet, and that the PO-PSL government should work harder to achieve this goal! What's stopping the Tusk administration except moderation or a slow down of his efforts due to the fact of the Presidential election in 2010! I don't know if I agree with you, as I don't know what do you have in mind referring to achieving the goal. I have said 'a general plan to make Poland better' in a slightly ironic way. Andrzej Lepper was once asked what is his political programme and he replied just like that 'to make Poland generally better'. I guess what was done by Tusk's governement and what wasn't done, and why it wasn't done was already discussed in this thread, isn't it ;D ;D
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Post by pieter on Dec 22, 2009 8:41:31 GMT -7
And how big is the chance that President of the European Parliament, Professor Jerzy Buzek will quit his presidency to become the Prime-Minister of Poland again! How popular is he in Poland and do you think the Polish voters share your desire for a Buzek administration? Pieter, you have asked for a dream government with a theoretical assumption that all politicians are available. In reality they are not, of course. ;D Tuftabis, You are right that I asked the question of the Tuftabis Dream cabinet, with an Utopic or Messianic message behind it, the theoretical assumption, yes! Silently I asked myself though if there was a chance that this could be reality, because if an idea, construction or political vision is strong enough it could be tested in the reality of Polish politics! The problem of today in the Netherlands and other European states is that democratic parties have such long histories in the national democracies of the countries, rooted so deeply in the system, that they are perched in a sort of dogmatic automatistic pragmatic structure of the mores of the parlaiment and the game of politics that they have difficulties with the invention, propaganda, fight for (defending political ideas) and the implementation of their visions, political thought and structural changes they want. So in outer appearance the main democratic parties from the centre-left and centre-left look differant due to their ideological design (logo's, colors and dress), but from the inside point of view, the content side they are more simular than they look, because most parties moved to the technocratic, general democratic, pragmatic middle. This is dangerous from the democratic pluriformity point of view and the demand for a parlaimentairy democracy which is based on the Representative democracy, which is a form of government founded on the principle of elected individuals representing the people, as opposed to either autocracy or direct democracy. I believe and am a firm supporter of Representative democracy in contrast with direct democracy which I consider to be a Populist democracy! The Tuftabis Dream cabinet is important to me, because I believe in pluriformity, European democracy and the fact that Europe has had a tradition of good coalition governments, next to bad coalition and single party governments (for instance Italy, Spain and Great Britain's Tory and Labour governments). The benefit of the Polish and Dutch democracies is that we can use a political Trial and error and the tool of Checks and balances better than countries with one party government democracies (GB and the USA). So Tufta, your theoretical dream government Buzek is important to me out of resepct for your democratic vote, vision and ideas and because you are part of the Polish democracy. Pieter
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Post by pieter on Dec 22, 2009 9:11:02 GMT -7
So you agree with me that it hasn't been carried out yet, and that the PO-PSL government should work harder to achieve this goal! What's stopping the Tusk administration except moderation or a slow down of his efforts due to the fact of the Presidential election in 2010! I don't know if I agree with you, as I don't know what do you have in mind referring to achieving the goal. I have said 'a general plan to make Poland better' in a slightly ironic way. Andrzej Lepper was once asked what is his political programme and he replied just like that 'to make Poland generally better'. I guess what was done by Tusk's governement and what wasn't done, and why it wasn't done was already discussed in this thread, isn't it ;D ;D Tuftabis, Before this becomes a game of words from my side (not yours), I want to explain my motive for the short message that generated your accurate and witty comment. With achieving the goal I mean what we have already discussed in this threat, that the PO had election campaigns in 2005 and 2007, a party program in which the political and economical goals were written down, television and radio adds with the same message, probably advertisements with the same message in the newspapers and magazines, and speeches and debates in and outside the Sejm about the same written down goals of the Civic Platform. As a foreigner I can't check how much of their goals PO has reached in the PO-PSL government? I witnessed some slight disappointment in your comments, like; " Mr.Tusk seemed to understand that, but it seems he only pretended" After further comments yesterday and today I understand that you are partly disappointed, that you want to go further than the present government you voted for as a PO voter. You said that " the situation is not as ideal as the government claims but certainly it is not as catastrophic as the oppositions wants the voters to believe. Overall PO government is a success - they still have a chance to fullfill the promised 'budget deficit cut reform. But the most disappointing thing is the lack of increase in R&D funding." We discussed the most important aspect of the government, your mild ciriticism of the government or encouragement to meet their own demands descibed by their program of 2005/2007! Interesting is to aks ourselves what else the government could and can do to meet their demands in the terms of economical, financial, social and for instance labour market and Polish internal market measures and (continued) reforms. I am trying to learn more about the Polish economy, Polish politics and the Polish innermarket and labourmarket situation. Your demand for increase the Polish R&D funding and to fullfill the promised ' budget deficit cut reform' were the most important points. Pieter
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Post by pieter on Dec 22, 2009 10:32:52 GMT -7
Tuftabis, By the way as a believer in pluriformity, a hetrogenous, multi-party democracy European stile I am concerned about the lack of good left and centre-left Polish democratic parties, since the centre-right ( PO and PiS) and centrist ( PSL) have three quarter of the parlaiment. Is there a future for non-communist, centre left and left parties in Poland. Tufta you are not left nor centre-left, but I hope that you can answer this question honestly! In a democracy the general development is always a swing from left to right or right to left. It's that way in Poland and that way in the Netherlands too. The only thing I heard from the lady who gave me a place to stay in Warsaw is that she said that the SLD is very disciplined and well organised! She was (and is) fiercly anti-communist, anti-socialist (social-democratic labour too) and opposed to Western-European (left-social) liberalism and against secularism in general. A real Prawo i Sprawiedliwość supporter and listener to radio Radio Maryja and the TV network Telewizja Trwam. I was well aware that she did not represent the average Polish centre right voter, but it was interesting to stay with this hospitable person who was very cosy and relaxed, because she was an old friend of my mother and both our families have strong old ties (with pre war Varsovian roots). She clearly didn't like Gazeta Wyborcza either and was an oponent of both PO and SLD. Absolute Roman-Catholicism (the church is the core, clerical power and influece necessary), Polish nationalism and conservatism and the Polish diplomatic world and market economy (she was a embassadors wife and possesed real estate in Warsaw) were her world. (next to her two succesful daughters, from whom one lived in Warsaw and another near the Swiss border in France -she works in Switzerland-, where she lives with her German -Polish speaking- husbant and kids. The Swiss daughter was very strict Roman Catholic too) ( 1) The Polish Nation, the absolutist ( 2) Polish faith (Polish Roman Catholicsm) and the ( 3) Polish people ( the Western-slav Polish ethnic people) were (are) a sort of Polish, political Trinity. Together with the Father, the son and the holy spirit this was her ideology. Is this a sort of radical version of Dariusz Karłowicz Political Theology? Or did I misunderstood her and don't I understand the Polish Catholic intelligentsia and Patriotic centre-right conservative-liberalism? I was a bigger oponent and critic of her ideology then, then I am today. The only problem I have with her political vision is the anti-semitic part of it. Without that element it is a legitimate Polish Patriotic or Nationalist vision. In a democracy differant kinds of views should be acceptable. (Not like in the Netherlands where Geert Wilders party of Freedom is labeled facists or far right, because it is democratic Liberal-nationalist and Muslim sceptic, in that sense PiS would be labeled far right and Ultra-nationalist in the Netherlands). Also a sort of Trinity was her anti-German, anti-Russian and anti-Jewish attitude? I did not understand her problems with jews in general? And openly opposed her stance on that! That was difficult because it was such an issue for her! I did however understood her anti-Western European stance (which camouflaged in general European remarks was in fact conservative criticism on Dutch liberalism with it's softdrugs, Euthenasia, Abortion and Gay marriage liberalisation and legalisation policy of the ninetees and early 21th century. And from her and other Polish peoples point of view understandable) You could say she was a sort of LPR brand of PiS voter, although she did not mention LPR once, she was a supporter of the conservative Kaczyński twins). It was interesting to spend a week with her and learn about Poland and Polish diplomacy (due to her experiance as an ambassadors wife in various African countries) She was a student of the Warsaw School of Economics ( Szkoła Główna Handlowa w Warszawie), and exellent in French and English next to Polish. We disagreed on politics completely, so I did not start to much conversations about the Polish politics, Europe and the Lebanese war that was taking place in August 2006. That also triggered her anti-jewish and anti-Israeli feelings and opinions. Do you see what those war criminals are doing there. She did not say a word about Hezbollah. Tufta if I may call you a typical PO supporter and her an old fashionate conservative wing of PiS supporter, I don't see much in common between the two of you. Remember she is PiS, not LPR! In that time I was in Warsaw. I learned something from this lady and her more moderate (PO like) daughter who worked for a large Western accountant firm in Warsaw. She was a Rzeczpospolita reader! I saw huge billboards of several Polish political parties and political adds on Polish television and was suprised how modern the Polish media and billboards of PSL (the first one I saw), PiS, LPR were. Unfortunately I did not saw one from Civic Platform (PO). One day I passed the building of the SLD Headquarters in uliza Rozbrat in Warsaw near the home of my hosts appartment, for her the gates (of the Polish communist enemy) hell. The SLD headquarters looked clean, modern, sophisticated (Western-European Labour stile of logo, billboard on the building and it's Corporate identity too), and in fact looked very simular as the German SPD headquarters I saw on German television and the SPD billboards and Posters I watched in Berlin in august 2005 (a year before I was in Warsaw). By the way Warsaw in 2006 looked more Modern and less shabby then Berlin in 2005. Sojusz Lewicy DemokratycznejLewica i DemokraciThe former Lucifer looking outside the windows of hell ;D Inside hell [Rozbrat w Warszawie] ;D ;D Cheers, Pieter P.S.- I hope it is clear to you that I am worried about the lack of non-communist, pre-war stile Social-democratic ( PPS/ Bund) or strong social-liberal (progressive centre-left; Pre-war PSL, the Christian democratic Stronnictwo Pracy and Wincenty Witos and Stanisław Mikołajczyk of the centre left peasents party Stronnictwo Ludowe) Polish democratic parties. I don't care much about Marxist (-Leninist), Socialists, Trotskist, Maoist and Anarchist parties on the left and am not an expert or fan of the Polish left neither. But a good Polish (pre-war stile, Non-communist) Social-democracy and Social-liberalism would be good for pluriformity, the Polish democracy in general and to have an influence in the European left and centre-left too. The Polish left from a patriotic point of view could counterballance some of the anti-Polish left in Europe! For instance you mentioned mister Schröder of Germany. On issues of Polish national interest the Polish right and left can unite! Democratic Party – demokraci.plLider Brygida KuźniakFor instance The Democratic Party (Polish: Partia Demokratyczna – demokraci.pl, PD) is a social liberal party in Poland, publicly announced on February 28 and formally established on May 9, 2005 as an "enlargement" of the Freedom Union (Unia Wolności), which it legally succeeds. IdeologyKey proposals of the party include: * Support for the European constitution in the referendum in October 2005 * Tax cuts, introduction of an 18% flat tax on incomes * Reduction of non-wage labour costs, tax remissions for business starters * Creation of new jobs, e.g. through a first-year exemption from social security contributions for graduate entrants * Appointment of an ombudsman to represent entrepreneurs damnified by fiscal or other authorities * Increased spending on education * Studentship funds for rural youth * Compulsory education starting at age 6 (presently 7), popularisation of instruction in two foreign languages at primary school level * Improvement and nationwide standardisation of health services * Establishment of a public hospital network not subject to privatisation * Reduction in telecommunication costs to facilitate internet access Popular SupportThe Freedom Union's transformation into the Democratic Party has not significantly increased voter support for the liberals, which since autumn 2004 has been oscillating between 3% and 6%. In June 2005 it was at 4% and has since deteriorated; in the parliamentary elections of September 2005, it reached 2.5%, failing to overcome the election threshold of 5%. Because the party received less than 3%, it does not receive refunds of its campaign costs. It also lacks significant presence in the media as a consequence of its poor election result, which has further diminished its appeal. In December 2005, the party merely reached 1% of support in a poll. As a result, some political observers question the party's ability to further continue in its present shape. CriticismThe Democratic Party has attracted criticism from other former oppositionists from communist times, who criticise that the party accepts former members of the post-communist SLD, and strongly opposes the large-scale vetting of officials and politicians (see Bronisław Wildstein) aimed at eliminating former state agents from political life. Also, the party's formal electoral and later parliamentary coalition with SLD, Left and Democrats, which lasted from 2006 until 2008, has been seen as disloyalty of Solidarity's ideals by many.
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Post by pieter on Dec 22, 2009 11:23:46 GMT -7
Tufta and other fellow Forum members, For me an independant, souvereign, free and democratic Poland, which is rooted in Europe and has a modern economy and agricultural sector (with an independant food industry too) is as important as a free, independant and moderate Netherlands! Poland the country of my ancestersPoland is with Checks and Balances, Trial and error, internal political cooperation and Unity, and a very good diplomacy, foreign affairs ( Sikorski in the Polish state department) and presentation in the European parlaiment ( Jerzy Buzek) and the European commission ( Paweł Samecki [1958] & Danuta Hübner [1948]) a country which is changing the hardests in Europe due to it's transformation in the last 20 years. In the same time the country is deeply rooted in Central European history, culture and continental development. It has diplomatic and political power due to it's position inbetween Western and Eastern Europe. When you look for instance at Poznan, Warsaw and Krakow you see also commercial, international industrial, trade, science and research ( R&D) centres that attract international attention, trade and commercial activity. Pieter
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Post by pieter on Dec 22, 2009 13:15:27 GMT -7
Liberalism in PolandLiberalism in Poland has always been a minor but sometimes influential political force. Union of Real Politics* 1990: In 1979 Janusz Korwin-Mikke activist of official Democratic Party published his political agenda. His main idea was to introduce Laissez-faire market economy in Poland. The proposed solution was to sign a deal with class of ruling communists, transforming their share in power into share in business. In 1990 new party Union of Real Politics ( Unia Polityki Realnej) was officially proclaimed. Citizens's Movement-Democratic Action* 1990: Liberals supporters of the Solidarity Trade Union around Zbigniew Bujak, Władysław Frasyniuk, and Adam Michnik founded the Citizens Movement 'Democratic Action' ( Ruch Obywatelski Akcja Demokratyczna/ ROAD). * 1991: A left-wing faction led by Bujak forms the Democratic Social Movement ( Ruch Demokratyczno Społeczny) and the rest of the party merged into the Democratic Union ( Unia Demokratyczna/ UD). From Democratic Union to Democratic Party* 1991: Liberal and catholic intellectuals founded the Democratic Union ( Unia Demokratyczna), absorbing later that year the Forum of Democratic Right and the ⇒ Citizens Movement-Democratic Action. The party is led by Tadeusz Mazowiecki and Bronisław Geremek* 1994: The party merged with the Liberal Democratic Congress into the Freedom Union ( Unia Wolności) * 2001: A right-wing faction created the conservative liberal Civic Platform ( Platforma Obywatelska) * 2005: On the basis of the Freedom Union the Democratic Party ( Partia Demokratycnza) is formed. Polish Liberal leaders are Władysław Frasyniuk, Janusz Onyszkiewicz, Janusz Korwin-Mikke and Leszek Balcerowicz. Liberal thinkers and ideologiesLink: pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberalizmpl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Konserwatywny_liberalizmpl.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Rawlspl.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Lockepl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adam_Smithen.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johan_Rudolph_Thorbeckepl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean-Baptiste_Saypl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexis_de_Tocquevillepl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herbert_Spencerpl.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Kenneth_GalbraithThe American roots of liberalism: The American Declaration of Independence proclaimed the liberal ideals of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Benjamin Franklin, Thomas Paine, Thomas Jefferson, and John Adams were instrumental in creating a country whose constitution was based on liberal principles. James Madison was prominent among the next generation of political theorists in America, arguing that in a republic self-government depended on setting " interest against interest", thus providing protection for the rights of minorities, particularly economic minorities. The United States Constitution contained a system of checks and balances: federal government balanced against states' rights; executive, legislative, and judicial branches; and a bicameral legislature. The goal was to ensure liberty by preventing the concentration of power in the hands of any one man. Standing armies were held in suspicion, and the belief was that the militia would be enough for defense, along with a navy maintained by the government to protect American trading vessels. Social liberalismKey liberal thinkers, such as Lujo Brentano, Leonard Trelawny Hobhouse, Thomas Hill Green, John Maynard Keynes, Bertil Ohlin and John Dewey, described how a government should intervene in the economy to protect liberty while avoiding socialism. These liberals developed the theory of social liberalism (also " new liberalism," not to be confused with present-day neoliberalism). Social liberals rejected both radical capitalism and the revolutionary elements of the socialist school. John Maynard Keynes, in particular, had a significant impact on liberal thought throughout the world.
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Post by tuftabis on Dec 22, 2009 13:49:40 GMT -7
Pieter, in short, my comments. - Dariusz Karłowicz is not some weird fundamentalist, just an ordinary democrate. He would be a great person to head ministy of eductaion because he has both an experience in university teaching and business manager (he used to be the director of one of the major advertising companies). Not because he is catholic. While yes he is catholic but that is still not a major sin in Poland Besides - his personal, confessional choices are his private matter, just as, say, sexual preferences of any given politician are. His private time he uses for carity in "Saint Nicolas Foundation" www.mikolaj.org.pl/Please note where has Western Europe gone when philosophically involved believer raises some suspisions, while any interest in, let' s say, atheists, gay people, private interest is viewed as oppression... - you are right, the left party in Poland is missing, we have only teh postcommunist, with 10 percent of shrinking electorate. It is shrinking beacuse their electorate is mainly composed of old party memebers. militia, UB and so on. No fresh blood. - I think we don't need tp worry abot the democratic left tradition. You wil probably be astonished but this tradition, although a bit frozen, is carried by one of teh wing of... PiS. - let's not make a mistake that since Poland is in Europe, in Eu, is a democratic state, she has to have exactly the same spectrum of left to right parties as Western Europe has. We are not nor do we really want to be 'West' totally, but to keep the specifity.
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Post by tuftabis on Dec 22, 2009 13:53:20 GMT -7
Liberalism in PolandLiberalism in Poland has always been a minor but sometimes influential political force. Union of Real Politics* 1990: In 1979 Janusz Korwin-Mikke activist of official Democratic Party published his political agenda. His main idea was to introduce Laissez-faire market economy in Poland. The proposed solution was to sign a deal with class of ruling communists, transforming their share in power into share in business. In 1990 new party Union of Real Politics ( Unia Polityki Realnej) was officially proclaimed. Citizens's Movement-Democratic Action* 1990: Liberals supporters of the Solidarity Trade Union around Zbigniew Bujak, Władysław Frasyniuk, and Adam Michnik founded the Citizens Movement 'Democratic Action' ( Ruch Obywatelski Akcja Demokratyczna/ ROAD). * 1991: A left-wing faction led by Bujak forms the Democratic Social Movement ( Ruch Demokratyczno Społeczny) and the rest of the party merged into the Democratic Union ( Unia Demokratyczna/ UD). From Democratic Union to Democratic Party* 1991: Liberal and catholic intellectuals founded the Democratic Union ( Unia Demokratyczna), absorbing later that year the Forum of Democratic Right and the ⇒ Citizens Movement-Democratic Action. The party is led by Tadeusz Mazowiecki and Bronisław Geremek* 1994: The party merged with the Liberal Democratic Congress into the Freedom Union ( Unia Wolności) * 2001: A right-wing faction created the conservative liberal Civic Platform ( Platforma Obywatelska) * 2005: On the basis of the Freedom Union the Democratic Party ( Partia Demokratycnza) is formed. Pieter, all those liberally oriented parties of Poland were at certain in my interest as a voter, even Janusz Korwin-Mikke's UPR! ;D
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Post by pieter on Dec 22, 2009 14:29:53 GMT -7
Pieter, in short, my comments. - Dariusz Karłowicz is not some weird fundamentalist, just an ordinary democrate. He would be a great person to head ministy of eductaion because he has both an experience in university teaching and business manager (he used to be the director of one of the major advertising companies). Not because he is catholic. While yes he is catholic but that is still not a major sin in Poland Besides - his personal, confessional choices are his private matter, just as, say, sexual preferences of any given politician are. His private time he uses for carity in "Saint Nicolas Foundation" www.mikolaj.org.pl/Please note where has Western Europe gone when philosophically involved believer raises some suspisions, while any interest in, let' s say, atheists, gay people, private interest is viewed as oppression... - you are right, the left party in Poland is missing, we have only teh postcommunist, with 10 percent of shrinking electorate. It is shrinking beacuse their electorate is mainly composed of old party memebers. militia, UB and so on. No fresh blood. - I think we don't need tp worry abot the democratic left tradition. You wil probably be astonished but this tradition, although a bit frozen, is carried by one of teh wing of... PiS. - let's not make a mistake that since Poland is in Europe, in Eu, is a democratic state, she has to have exactly the same spectrum of left to right parties as Western Europe has. We are not nor do we really want to be 'West' totally, but to keep the specifity. Tuftabis, Very nice comments Tufta, and I have nothing against Dariusz Karłowicz nor do I think he is some weird fundamentalist. I am very used to political theology, because I watch the Protestant version of it every week in my job as local journalist when I speak or interview the local Arnhem chairwomen of the fraction of the Christian Union ( ChristenUnie), Addy Plieger in the Arnhem city council and I see the ministers of the national branch of her party in the Dutch government and members of the Dutch parlaiment on television, in my newspaper and magazines. So you could say in the Netherlands Political Theology is well represented in the National, Regional (Provincial) and local (city, town and village) politics. The ChristianUnie, CDA (large Christian democratic party; the largest Dutch party) and the Fundamentalist Protestant SGP (The Political Reformed Party) have differant sorts of Christian (a mix of theological and political ideology) thought which influences their policies and opposition in the case of the SGP. Addy Plieger, chairwomen of the Arnhem Christian Union The CDA is more pragmatic and conservative-liberal like PO and PiS, but the party has a mix of Catholic social teaching and the Protestant Anti-revolutionairy ideology. Both the ruling ChristianUnie and the opposition SGP party are biblical parties who are driven by theological, biblical visions about government, legislation and political propaganda. Via their faith, their bible oriented or influenced ideas they believe they will develop, introduce and implement the best measures and legislation, because they do it with the best interest for the Netherlands in mind. They also believe that their policy is good for their atheist liberal, socialist, social-democratic and secular conservative political oponents. Here the philosophy of the Christian Union: ( from their website) Party with a missionThe ChristianUnion is a political party in the Netherlands which constructively seeks ways to make a Christian-social message heard in all forums. The ChristianUnion has the mission to serve the society politically by making God’s will more present in its functioning. In order to reach this goal we aim for a strong influence and representation on every political level.ChristianUnion politicsOur people in the government, the parliament, the European Parliament and in local councils translate this mission in a policy which focuses on a sustainable and ecologically responsible development of society. The ChristianUnion is very aware of the fact that the quality of life and society strongly depends on immaterial gains. For example, being involved in social groups, feeling safe and having the freedom of speech, contribute to this quality of life. The ChristianUnion is principled in its beliefs that it is not up to humans to decide over matters regarding life or death. Society should care passionately about all life and all creation. In practice this also means we are very committed to the protection of the environment.This are the Arnhem branch people I see on a weekly basis during the City council gatherings on monday evening in the city hall or at political debates or other meetings: arnhem.christenunie.nl/page/10545In that way I am very aware of the Protestant version of Political Theology, and I respect their view very much. Addy Plieger their chairwoman is one of the best local politicians in the Arnhem council. She is very articulate, honest, clear, and has the respect of left and rightwing oponents. She fights against Canabis (softdrugs) addiction and use of Canabis near kindergardens and primary schools and against women trade and forced prostitution. Next to this she knows her files very well and always has a clear vision about the larger city projects in Arnhem. The larger Christian Democratic CDA does not show a clear christian sound in the council, also because the party is part of the executive board of a municipality with one alderman who is not the best of the board. The Christian Union forms a Christian minority in the city council! In the National elections a lot of conservative Roman Catholics vote for the ChristenUnie, because they find the larger CDA (in which the Catholic KVP merged) not Catholic and Christian enough. In the Protestant (Calvinist) ChristenUnie they find the Christian message they hear in their churches and communities and the values they have. They don't support their three Roman Catholic CDA ministers in the Cabinet Balkenende. Prawo i Sprawiedliwość and the ChristenUnie are member of the same European Parliament group, European Conservatives and Reformists. Links: pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/ChristenUnieen.wikipedia.org/wiki/ChristianUnion
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Post by pieter on Dec 22, 2009 15:56:12 GMT -7
- you are right, the left party in Poland is missing, we have only the postcommunist, with 10 percent of shrinking electorate. It is shrinking beacuse their electorate is mainly composed of old party memebers. Militia, UB and so on. No fresh blood. Tufta, These old PZPR members, bureaucrats, Militiamen and UB guys are not that cosy fellows. A depressing old bunch I would say! ;D Do they really only have old Communists as supporters? Not old Social-democratic Solidarnosc or KOR dissidents, because you had socialist dissidents too next to the Catholic intelligentsia, democrats and conservative-liberals, social-liberals, conservatives and Polish nationalists (or better discription "Polish Patriots"). Pieter
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Post by pieter on Dec 22, 2009 16:06:56 GMT -7
- I think we don't need to worry about the democratic left tradition. You wil probably be astonished but this tradition, although a bit frozen, is carried by one of the wings of... PiS. Surpised and not suprised, because I already red that for instance LPR stood for a leftwing economical policy, with an etatist stance. So if this party is swallowed by PiS it would not suprise me. But I think you mean something else, a wing of PiS itself of old Polish Social democrats, Polish socialist catholics (old PPS ideology; Polish socialism, Polish Patriotism and the Catholic faith of it's working class and middle class members). But that is the past, how would in todays conservative PiS a democratic left wing tradition be carried? By whom, followed by who and what position does it has in the PiS base (party organisation and Sejm)?
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Post by pieter on Dec 22, 2009 16:48:26 GMT -7
- let's not make a mistake that since Poland is in Europe, in Eu, is a democratic state, she has to have exactly the same spectrum of left to right parties as Western Europe has. We are not nor do we really want to be 'West' totally, but to keep the specifity. Tuftabis, I believe that you believe that I will not be suprised by this! I already stated how much I believe that Poland is a modern, Western (Not Western-European but Western), sophisticated, Modernised, innovative, reformist country in the heart of Europe inbetween Western-Europe and Eastern-Europe, and inbetween Southern Europe and the far North of Europe (under Sweden, the Baltic states and Finland). It is a larger, West-Slav country in Central-Europe with a culture which you can label Pan-European, due to the old Polish Roman, Gothic, Renaissance, baroc/Rocco, Classicist and Modern 20th and 21th century architecture, art and culture. Next to that it has the Bohemian, German (the Mideaval Burgher of Polish towns and cities who brought their arts and crafts with them), Italian (the Italian painters and sculpturists of the Polish kings), Dutch (Hanza, Gdansk and the many Dutch paintings in Polish castles, Pallaces and museums), Austrian (Habsburg infleunce in Krakow) and Russian (Czarist and the Stalinist Palace of Culture in Warsaw) influences. In the same time during the centuries you had foreign immigration and these minorities brought some content and flavor to Poland. The Jews, the French Huegenots, the Dutch and German Mennonites, the Tartar Muslims who served the Polish crown as soldiers, the Armenians, the Greek-Catholic Ukrainian minority, the German towns and villagesn in Silesia and the beautiful city Wrocław (which was the German town Breslau). Befor the war, after the war during communism and after the fall of Communism Poland was a Modern country with industries, chemical and metal plants, machninery factories (cars, busses, trucks, trams and tractors), shipyards, Coal mining, a huge agricultural sector (being able to feed its own population), beer and Vodka breweries and the art and craft industry of woodcutting (which attracts tourism). Today a lot of that industry and factories are modernised or completely new (both domestic and foreign). For instance the Skoda factory in Poznan was the most modern car factory in the world. Many other European and Asian car factories had their factories in Poland, due to the skilled workers, employees and staff that was and is available. The international education system of Poland attracts both Polish and foreign students to its Universities and technical and economical schools and research institutes. International Pop bands, theatre and dance companies, VJ's and DJ's and filmindustries come to Poland to perform, make music, give concerts or shows, give or follow seminars or workshops, cooperate with Polish artists, professionals and technicians. In the same time Poles are abroad in Europe, North-America and the rest of the world to do the same. The Polish government cooperates, negociates, makes deals, and joins groups of countries in certain international fields of interest. The Polish police, Army, Navy and Airforce cooperates with other countries in Peace keeping missions, safety related issues, Interpol, International courts, NATO, EU, UN affairs and in bilateral and multilateral agreements. Polish businessmen- and women, entrepreneurs, scientists, skilled workers and middle class, diplomats, politicians, intellectuals (professors, thinkers, poets, writers, essayists, philosophers, theologists, journalists, teachers and doctors) are respected and do a good job in Poland and all over Europe as scientists, chemists, guestprofessors, students, researchers and colleages of other Europeans. Poland is a normal country and is taken very seriously. For instance a documentry on Dutch television about Paris, London or Warsaw is the same. It is taken equally serious, and even sometimes due to sensebilities of the past, and present, the media report or documentry about Poland is more interesting than that of antoher European country, because every now and then there is a smart Dutch correspondet or documentry maker who has something to say about present day Poland (because you have a lot of stupid and boring news too). In general Poland is seen as a normal modern country, also because the Polish workers around the corner here in Arnhem drive modern fency Volkswagen busses, Volkswagen Golf cars, Audi's or Opels which are not old or shabby but new! And they do their job well, buy their food in Dutch supermarket and sometimes like to enjoy a Dutch coffee or beer in a Dutch pub, and like to attend mass in a Dutch Catholic church (if there is no Polish mass). Pieter
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Post by pieter on Dec 28, 2009 9:51:30 GMT -7
Unemployment set to stabilize, say economists28th December 2009 Unemployment will probably not rise much in the new year, but it will not fall either, according to economists surveyed by Rzeczpospolita. According to Łódź University's Professor Elżbieta Kryńska, unemployment will not drop into single figures and will probably remain between 10 percent and 11percent. While companies will not be imposing more workforce reductions, they will not begin hiring either. Source: RzeczpospolitaFrom Warsaw Business Journal
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