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Post by pieter on Sept 5, 2006 1:06:27 GMT -7
I read all Edward Stachura translated poems on this website one by one and they have a strange sort of strength, obsessive watching, through these poems you see life. Descriptions of life, whitch can be cruel sometimes, but also give you consolidation and beauty.
Another poem I like;
Landscape
Horizon's asleep in the corner of your mouth and the clouds and the sun return to ask the more gentle peninsulas for the soft burrows of your eyes as a lair
In faraway lands white hands of monks slaughter young fallow deer and on the tile floors of their homes they spread soft skins for your one and only foot
In the morning when you softly raise your neck the hands of thieves offer you ivory combs and the most beautiful horses run up to the window
In Polish (obvious more powerful than the translated version)
Pejzaz
Usypia horyzont w kaciku twych ust i powracaja chmury i slonce lagodniejsze polwyspy prosic o miekkie nory twoich oczu na legowisko
W dalekich krajach biale dlonie mnichow zarzynaja mlode daniele i na kamiennych posadzkach swoich domow rozkladaja skory miekkie dla jednej stopy twojej
Rano kiedy szyje pondosisz leniwie rece zlodziei podsuwaja ci grzebienie z kosci sloniowej i najpiekniejsze konie przybiegaja pod okno
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bujno
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Post by bujno on Sept 5, 2006 9:25:17 GMT -7
A nice choice. Pieter, why not to give it a try and... start learning Polish?
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bujno
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Post by bujno on Sept 5, 2006 9:28:27 GMT -7
Sciwriter, thank for turning attention to a writer I did not know. You made me start thinking (with shame) how little I know about Albania... the country practically in the centre of Europe!
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bujno
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Post by bujno on Sept 5, 2006 10:47:45 GMT -7
Yes of course I know Bob Dylan - and his a feminine version :)Joan Baez. I like both very much. Do you know that Bob Dylan's real name is Robert Zimmerman and he chose 'Dylan' name afer another poet - Dylan Thomas. I also went into poetry through music , poezja œpiewana ('sung poetry') very popular in Poland. These were the old times... Marek Grechuta, Ewa Demarczyk, Vladmir Vysotski, Bulat Okudzava, Zanna Bichevska, and many many others. And then suddenly an absolutely phenomenal eruption of Jacek Kaczmarski.
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Post by pieter on Sept 5, 2006 11:20:08 GMT -7
A nice choice. Pieter, why not to give it a try and... start learning Polish? Wojtek, You are absolute right, actually I've started learning Polish in 1996 and continued until early 1997, but it was to difficult back than, and I was more alienated from Poland than I am nowadays. Lack of basic knowledge of the language, the complicated grammar, and the complete differant way of pronounciation made it difficult for me back than. Good though, was that some simple elements stayed in my mind. I have to go back to my books and casettes and learn, learn. Pieter
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Post by pieter on Sept 5, 2006 11:28:11 GMT -7
Yes of course I know Bob Dylan - and his a feminine version :)Joan Baez. I like both very much. Do you know that Bob Dylan's real name is Robert Zimmerman and he chose 'Dylan' name afer another poet - Dylan Thomas. I also went into poetry through music , poezja œpiewana ('sung poetry') very popular in Poland. These were the old times... Marek Grechuta, Ewa Demarczyk, Vladmir Vysotski, Bulat Okudzava, Zanna Bichevska, and many many others. And then suddenly an absolutely phenomenal eruption of Jacek Kaczmarski. Wojtek, A friend of mine is a hardcore fan of Bob Dylan, and he has nearly all his records, bootlegs and books. I was never a fan, but respect his achievements, and his determination to go on. Do you know that this musicians has been Touring non stop since 18 years, a never ending Tour. Lately I saw a long documentry about him, which was broadcasted for two nights on the BBC. That was interesting, because you saw the sixtees, seventees, eightees and ninetees passing by. A lot of black and white and color footage, and interviews with a guy who never gives interviews. I have a lot to learn, because I have never heard of Marek Grechuta, Ewa Demarczyk, Vladmir Vysotski, Bulat Okudzava, Zanna Bichevska, and Jacek Kaczmarski. Thank you for mentioning them, I learn from you every day. Pieter
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Post by sciwriter on Sept 5, 2006 17:51:01 GMT -7
Bujno, thanks. Carl
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bujno
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Post by bujno on Sept 6, 2006 15:04:48 GMT -7
I have a lot to learn, because I have never heard of Marek Grechuta, Ewa Demarczyk, Vladmir Vysotski, Bulat Okudzava, Zanna Bichevska, and Jacek Kaczmarski. Thank you for mentioning them, I learn from you every day.
Pieter[/quote]
Pieter, it is really good music, the language is essential there too. In case of Bichevska, Okudzva and Vysotski it is Russian. But even without understanding the poetic and meaningful texts, it is worth listening. THe feelings will guide you!
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Post by pieter on Sept 6, 2006 15:49:55 GMT -7
Thank you Wojtek, I will try to find their music via Internet, in the past I obtained some Polish Pop music records, and my father was fond of Russian folk music, anf later I heard Russian Orthodox choirs and Opera's (my parents have the French classical Music chanal Mezzo; www.mezzo.tv/ ). Ofcourse in Amsterdam, with the "crazy" Russians, I often heard their music at home, at private parties and bigger parties. At those parties they played Russian, Ukrainian, Gypsy and Jiddish folkmusic and Modern Russian pop-music. That was great. It had passion, creativity, energy, Romantic flavor, melancholy, poetic power, Russian soul, Ukrainian quality, Jiddishe Joy (gein/fröhlichkeit), Post-Sovjet humor (mocking both the Sovjet pompousness and the New maffia), musical sensitivity and fire (temperament), swing (swung), that special atmosphere the Russian language, behavior, culture and art of survival brings to such a place. Later those parties became less pleasant, when obscure people in thick leather coats with cheap platinum blond girlfriends came, and the atmosphere became inate and cold. My Russian friend of a girlfriend of mine told me that these were bad people, Russian maffia or KGB, I could'nt tell. The good times were over, and I did'nt attend that dancing no more. That was the last time I went to a Russian party in Amsterdam. Later I moved to Arnhem in august 1992, and I lost contact with the Russians. They were musicians, artists, mathematicians, computer specialists, Polythechnic students, Vagabonds (people living an alternative lifestile), record label owners, entrepreneurs, and people who had a relation with a Dutch person (like my Dutch friend who married this Russian from Siberia, who moved to Moscow to study there and escaped the deteriorating climate in the early ninetees. His friend was murdered back then by Chechen maffia, who were very dangerous in Moscow). I became fond of Central-Europe in the ninetees, visiting Prague and Southern Bohemia several times (Cseske-Krumlow), and Budapest in Hungary. In the Netherlands I knew Hungarians, Bulgarians, Czech people, Yugolsavians (mainly Serbs). Good people who tried to adobt to the Dutch lifestile and language, but all with this same melancholy and feeling homesick for their fatherland. Unfortunately I knew not that many Poles, because in comparison with other West-European countries, we had a very small Polish community here of only 20.000 people on 16.000.000 Dutch people. Today I see more Poles and especially more cars with Polish number plates here. And feel good every time I see a Polish car parked here in my town or see Poles driving by. I am a little bit Pan-slavian, because I like Czech people, Slovenian people, Yugoslavians, Bulgarians and ofcourse Poles and Russians. I don't know Ukrainians, Belarussians and Slovakians good enough to know if I would like them or their culture. I only heard some Ukrainian music, but I could not hear the differance with Russian back then. I like the fact though that the Polish-Ukrainian relationship today is better than it used to be in the past (before, in and shortly after the war). Pieter
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bujno
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Post by bujno on Sept 7, 2006 11:11:54 GMT -7
I am a little bit Pan-slavian, because I like Czech people, Slovenian people, Yugoslavians, Bulgarians and ofcourse Poles and Russians. I don't know Ukrainians, Belarussians and Slovakians good enough to know if I would like them or their culture. I only heard some Ukrainian music, but I could not hear the differance with Russian back then. I like the fact though that the Polish-Ukrainian relationship today is better than it used to be in the past (before, in and shortly after the war). Pieter I do understand that you use the 'panslavian' word in the loose sense. But panslavism was (and sometimes still is) a very serious movement. Unfortunetely it was taken up and politically exploited by Tsarist and Soviet Russia. The Poles thought that the liberation and unification of all the Slavs under Russian (not PANslavic) rule is exacty what part of Poland is subject to (partitions time). And that they don't like it at all (the rule, not the Russians as people). So now the word 'panslavism' sounds equal to 'Russian imperialism'. --- Edition: I 've forgotten to say that I liked this posting of yours very much, your personal views and experience is extremely interesting, thank you!
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Post by pieter on Sept 12, 2006 6:53:23 GMT -7
I am a little bit Pan-slavian, because I like Czech people, Slovenian people, Yugoslavians, Bulgarians and ofcourse Poles and Russians. I don't know Ukrainians, Belarussians and Slovakians good enough to know if I would like them or their culture. I only heard some Ukrainian music, but I could not hear the differance with Russian back then. I like the fact though that the Polish-Ukrainian relationship today is better than it used to be in the past (before, in and shortly after the war). Pieter I do understand that you use the 'panslavian' word in the loose sense. But panslavism was (and sometimes still is) a very serious movement. Unfortunetely it was taken up and politically exploited by Tsarist and Soviet Russia. The Poles thought that the liberation and unification of all the Slavs under Russian (not PANslavic) rule is exacty what part of Poland is subject to (partitions time). And that they don't like it at all (the rule, not the Russians as people). So now the word 'panslavism' sounds equal to 'Russian imperialism'. --- Edition: I 've forgotten to say that I liked this posting of yours very much, your personal views and experience is extremely interesting, thank you! Wojtek, My Pan-slavian feeling is a mild, cultural, connection towards Central- and Eastern- European Slavian culture, so the totality of Polish, Russian, Ukrainian, Belarussian, Bulgarian, Czechian, Skowakian, Slovenian, Serbian, Croatian, Montenegronian, Macedonian and that of the tiny Sorb minortity in Germany cultures. And with this I mean their art, literature, poetry, music, moviemakers, dissidents (in Communist and Fascist times), philosophers, scientists and photographers. I do not mean with that the Imperialist Russians and Serbians or the fascist (Ustasha) Croats, criminal Slavian Muslims (in the sense of war criminals and bandits). My Pan-slavianism has nothing to do with politics, and so there is no role for Slavian politicians in it, because I have my doubts about these Slavian politicians. (and these doubts are the same doubts I have with many of my Dutch, European or American politicians. Namely that they are part of a Geo-political imperialistic force, The New Order). This Pan-slavianism is purely cultural and even Cosmopolitan. It's part of my personal heritage. I hate Russian imperialism as much as the Poles do, and stil see today the Racist Russicist (Russification) powers in the Russian federation. So I am against this political form of Pan-Slavianism which is Russian or Orthodox. The cultural Pan-slavism honours all great Slav artists, and their significance for the world. Cheslaw Milosz, Dostojevski, Kieslovski, Tarkovski, Milan Kundera, Ivo Andric (The Bridge on the Drina), Polanski and Emir Kusturica (from the movie Black Cat, White Cat), Malevich, Shostakovich, Rachmaninov, Turgenjew, Tadeusz Kantor, Tadeusz Konwicky, Penderetski, Szymanovski, Chopin, Wieniavski, Witkiewicz and Václav Havel. I know that the Slavs are devided in West, East and Southern Slavs, but in culture there are no borders, and there is a Slavian culture that is differant than the Germanistic or Frankist-latin culture. I did not mention the Hungarians, Rumanians and Baltic people, because they are no Slavs. Pieter
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bujno
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Post by bujno on Sept 12, 2006 7:45:14 GMT -7
I know that the Slavs are devided in West, East and Southern Slavs, but in culture there are no borders, and there is a Slavian culture that is differant than the Germanistic or Frankist-latin culture. why then differentiate at all, Pieter?
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Post by pieter on Sept 12, 2006 8:04:53 GMT -7
I know that the Slavs are devided in West, East and Southern Slavs, but in culture there are no borders, and there is a Slavian culture that is differant than the Germanistic or Frankist-latin culture. why then differentiate at all, Pieter? Because you have the differances between latin and cyrillic alphabets for instance, and inside the Russian literature you had the truggle between the Westernizer and Slavophile urges in Russian culture. That influence you can't deny, and ofcourse there are national developments in the Polish, Czech, Slowak, Slovenian, Russian, Ukrainian, Serb and Croat literatures, because the traditions are differant, and you have the national marks on that. But writers always read foreign literature, like to travel abroad, and even to feel the other language and atmosphere of that other language group (like you can love the happening of a Brodski poetry night in Moscow, where the poet performed in Russian, with the subtitles under in the television screen). I am glad that I live in a country where I can hear the foreign language of a poet, writer or movie, and so can be part of an authentic experiance. If I would have lived in Germany or France, these artists would have a voice over, and movies would be in German or French, so that you miss the original piece of art. Wojtek, I do not hate borders, because national and regional differances give flavor in life, and that pluriformity (" having a choise between....") in culture and art on our continent and in language and culture groups, makes Europe such an interesting continent. The French, Spanish, Portugese, Italians and Rumanians are also not one melting pot, because they happen to belong to the latin (roman) language group and culture. Pieter
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bujno
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Post by bujno on Sept 12, 2006 8:10:51 GMT -7
why then differentiate at all, Pieter? Because you have the differances between latin and cyrillic alphabets for instance, and inside the Russian literature you had the truggle between the Westernizer and Slavophile urges in Russian culture. That influence you can't deny, and ofcourse there are national developments in the Polish, Czech, Slowak, Slovenian, Russian, Ukrainian, Serb and Croat literatures, because the traditions are differant, and you have the national marks on that. But writers always read foreign literature, like to travel abroad, and even to feel the other language and atmosphere of that other language group (like you can love the happening of a Brodski poetry night in Moscow, where the poet performed in Russian, with the subtitles under in the television screen). I am glad that I live in a country where I can hear the foreign language of a poet, writer or movie, and so can be part of an authentic experiance. If I would have lived in Germany or France, these artists would have a voice over, and movies would be in German or French, so that you miss the original piece of art. Wojtek, I do not hate borders, because national and regional differances give flavor in life, and that pluriformity ("having a choise between....") in culture and art on our continent and in language and culture groups, makes Europe such an interesting continent. The French, Spanish, Portugese, Italians and Rumanians are also not one melting pot, because they happen to belong to the latin (roman) language group and culture. Pieter Yes I agree BUt why differentiate a 'panslavian' out of many other culture lovers? Panslavian means 'all-slavic'. This is what I did not get. Why the 'slavic culture fan' is not enough? As you have rightly stated there are so grr eat differences inside the slavic culture that it is hard to like them all. If one likes everything one actually likes nothing.
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Post by pieter on Sept 12, 2006 8:34:22 GMT -7
Wojtek,
I think I have to explain, I come from a family where classical culture was prefered, but also the culture of many countries were present in music and art appreciation. In Amsterdam I got this slavic culture, because of the many Exile communities, but I prefer the Polish, Czech and Russian culture above most of the Yugoslavian, Slowak, and other Slavian cultures, because I know these three cultures better than the others. The Polish, Russian and Czech culture were always present in our memories of Poland, Prague and Bohemia, and our fondness of Russian composers and writers. Poland is dominant, because there are the blood ties, and the knowledge of it's history (I know little about Czechia or Russia). So I can say the recent Czech culture and literature is part of the recent Central-European history, the Russian culture is an imported and adobted culture (transalated, and played in the West), while the Polish culture and existance of Polish art is part of my European heritage.
Pieter
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