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Post by pieter on Apr 24, 2013 9:04:36 GMT -7
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Post by pieter on Apr 24, 2013 9:18:12 GMT -7
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Post by pieter on Apr 24, 2013 9:23:16 GMT -7
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Post by karl on Apr 24, 2013 10:23:43 GMT -7
Pieter Congratulations upon your new to be: King!  It was very good of you of adding the URLs for all to be informed of this very remarkable young King to be. He {Willem-Alexander (Claus George Ferdinand)} is very well educated by all accounts of his back ground and should do very well by virtue of his Mother, Queen {at present}, Beatrix. Willem and wife, Maxima are a young and vibrant family and be very popular in his new reign.. By his background, it appears he has had a very active life with various service in Africa and is a pilot. This was indicated by his currant licensed pilot of heavy turbine powered state owned twin aft jet. Very remarkable and wonderful young family.. Once again, congratulations to your self and the people of the Nederland... Karl |
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Post by Jaga on Apr 24, 2013 23:02:10 GMT -7
Pieter, thanks for posting. I was born in the concept of kings being in the far past, so for me this is just so strange. Still, in many cases, even in today world we need a stability figure. So, if Dutch love their kings and it work for all of you, why not?
By the way, do people in Netherlands who are aristocrats keep their title? Are they proud of it? Just curious.
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Post by kaima on Apr 25, 2013 0:33:25 GMT -7
Pieter, thanks for posting. I was born in the concept of kings being in the far past, so for me this is just so strange. Still, in many cases, even in today world we need a stability figure. So, if Dutch love their kings and it work for all of you, why not? By the way, do people in Netherlands who are aristocrats keep their title? Are they proud of it? Just curious. Yes, please answer Jaga. I am a bit curious as well. As a good American, I am baffled by the fascination Americans seem to have toward royalty and nobility and the scandal soap operas that the Brits and others seem to supply us with in endless quantities when our own weaknesses fail us for distraction and entertainment. I am more baffled that we Americans do not have a greater hostility toward royalty, given that we founded this country by rebelling against that ridiculous system of superiority. But then we readily accept the concept of a God who creates a Chosen People and leaves the rest of us out in the cold, t the point where we wish to support these "chosen" to the point of oppressing others.. And we believe in the DollarGod, the giver of all good and all proof of superiority of Rich People over Poor People. Somehow I could have bought into all of that easily in the year 1000, but today I have quite a bit of trouble accepting such stuff, to express it politely. Somehow I seem to believe in self determination, which to me means equal voice in government, or in a word, democracy. The other sacred word in America is 'republic', which means nothing more to me (given Peoples Republic of Congo and of China as examples) means nothing more to me than we are a self governing rather than a monarchy. That of course is un-American today; we are obligated to believe as Good Americans that DollarGod intended the Rich to rule over the Poor and the average, to hell with self government that includes anyone without a government photo ID. Given our own compounded difficulties on this side of the Pond, I wish you and, presumably your chosen form of government with a an unbelievably rich, thank DollarGod) monarch. So live in peace an prosper with your new chosen king! Kai The Anit-Monarchist, as every True American must be |
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Post by pieter on Apr 25, 2013 9:15:05 GMT -7
So live in peace an prosper with your new chosen king! Kai The Aniti-Monarchist, as every True American must be Kaima, you mean, live in peace an prosper with my new unchosen and undemocratic king!  ;D  A lot of power is taken away from the Dutch Queen and coming king, because their role in the formation of a new government is taken away from them by a majority of the Dutch parlaiment. The role of the King and queen in the formation is taken over by the Dutch parlaiment. The King has a more ceremonial role than power. He is not the absolute monarch of the past. The King is the president of the state. Decision power lies in the hand of the prime-minister, his ministers and the Dutch parlaiment. You have both Monarchists and Republicans (not the American meaning, but in the sense of anti-monarchist and Pro presidential system people). Republikanische Genossenschaft Wechseln zu: Navigation, Suche The Republican association is a Dutch political movement with the aim the abolisment of the Dutch monarchy. It was founded in Spetember 1996 by Pierre Vinken at the Prinsenhof in Delft. The Republican association has no charter. Other than the New Republican Association, who spilt in januari 1998 of it, The Republican association doesn´t reach its goal with activism. One canb only become member by Co-option. Well know members were and are Pim Fortuyn (murdered), Theo van Gogh (murdered), Leon de Winter (critical writer and friend of Ayaan Hirsi Ali, an-Islam critic), Karel Glastra van Loon, Jan Timman, Ellen ten Damme (a singer, pop musician and actress) and Huub Stapel (Dutch movie and tv actor). The Dutch rightwing Populist Geert Wilders is a Republican in the Dutch sense too.  Members of the Republican associationwww.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2269665/Queen-Beatrix-Netherlands-abdicates-favour-middle-aged-son.html |
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Post by pieter on Apr 25, 2013 9:27:05 GMT -7
Pieter, thanks for posting. I was born in the concept of kings being in the far past, so for me this is just so strange. Still, in many cases, even in today world we need a stability figure. So, if Dutch love their kings and it work for all of you, why not? By the way, do people in Netherlands who are aristocrats keep their title? Are they proud of it? Just curious. Jaga, In the Netherlands you have Barons, Jonkheer (female equivalent: Jonkvrouw) a Dutch honorific of nobility and a Belgian title. In Belgium this is an official title, recognised by the cour de cassation. Next to them you have counts, dukes, princes and princesses of the Royal Orange family of Oranje-Nassau. They are not so public about it. Not ashamed about it, but ordinairy people like me don't know nobility. I only know that my Polish grandfather was from a Polish schlachtza family. Next to the nobility you have an upperclass like in England and probably New England too. The class of old merchants, diplomacy, and 'Old rich families' which exist next to the Nouveau riche (New rich). The old rich is sometimes called Patrician, or like they say in Dutch 'from a better milieu', which means of old wealth, educated, having a certain position in society and etc. But social liberalism, social democracy and the emancipation of the Dutch labour oriented and christian working classes have made the Netherlands a more egalitarian society. Sometimes it is better to be of working class or middle class background than upper class, due to the power of the nouveay riche (new entrepreneurs coming from the working and middle classes), de education system (with a lot of leftwing leaning, labour and more radical left =Greenleft and Socialist Party), the Unions and the changed democraticized society. Cheers, Pieter |
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Post by Jaga on Apr 25, 2013 10:04:48 GMT -7
Pieter,
it is interesting. I always thought about Dutch as city people, merchands, industrous, and nobility id more reserved to people who have a land.
All of these titles sound faimilar except "Jonkheer" for me. I did not realize that Belgian nobility titles were different.
In Poland almost everybody has some schlachta blood since 20% of population was of lower nobility. My blood is probably in 25% schlachta, 25% peasant and 50% who knows what, I mean Silesians (my mother roots) did not have schlachta nor nobility, they were just working class. My two grandparents were miners, but educated ones, I mean one was actually a miner engineer writing books about mining instead of working underground, the other lost his job during the great depression in the mine.
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Post by kaima on Apr 26, 2013 10:42:54 GMT -7
So live in peace an prosper with your new chosen king! Kai The Aniti-Monarchist, as every True American must be Kaima, you mean, live in peace an prosper with my new unchosen and undemocratic king! ;D A lot of power is taken away from the Dutch Queen and coming king, because their role in the formation of a new government is taken away from them by a majority of the Dutch parlaiment. The role of the King and queen in the formation is taken over by the Dutch parlaiment. The King has a more ceremonial role than power. He is not the absolute monarch of the past. The King is the president of the state. Decision power lies in the hand of the prime-minister, his ministers and the Dutch parlaiment. You have both Monarchists and Republicans (not the American meaning, but in the sense of anti-monarchist and Pro presidential system people). Republikanische Genossenschaft Wechseln zu: Navigation, Suche The Republican association is a Dutch political movement with the aim the abolisment of the Dutch monarchy. It was founded in Spetember 1996 by Pierre Vinken at the Prinsenhof in Delft. The Republican association has no charter. Other than the New Republican Association, who spilt in januari 1998 of it, The Republican association doesn�t reach its goal with activism. One canb only become member by Co-option. Well know members were and are Pim Fortuyn (murdered), Theo van Gogh (murdered), Leon de Winter (critical writer and friend of Ayaan Hirsi Ali, an-Islam critic), Karel Glastra van Loon, Jan Timman, Ellen ten Damme (a singer, pop musician and actress) and Huub Stapel (Dutch movie and tv actor). The Dutch rightwing Populist Geert Wilders is a Republican in the Dutch sense too. Members of the Republican associationwww.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2269665/Queen-Beatrix-Netherlands-abdicates-favour-middle-aged-son.htmlPieter, Thanks for your gracious reply to my anti-monarchist sentiments. I am accustomed to our American perspective, where it is unpatriotic or un-American to criticize our form of government (unless it is anti-Obama, then it is OK). I am aging, and we have entered a more violent world, where I remain anti-Monarchist but do not spout the "kill them all" verbiage I did in my earlier life. Back in the year 1000 I would have easily accepted that the natural order of things was God, King, Nobility and Country, with Church being an overall blanket for the spiritual life. Believing in the End of the World in year 1000 would have been quite easy to accept as well. Today, however, I grew up American, believing in Republic as NOT monarchy (or anti-monarchy) and in Democracy/self determination as both worldly and spiritual ultimate values. On nobility and old money, I feel that robbers are robbers, and nobles are largely just robbers from centuries past, and that robbers of today will be quite respectable in centuries future. That is all nobility means to me. Oh, and a few earned it by deeds of daring and patriotism, others earned it by stealing money, others still by backing the winning king-to-be, where the new king took property from defeated nobles and gave it to newly created nobles, payment for political backing. So we change vocabulary but keep the human condition. Kai |
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Post by kaima on Apr 29, 2013 0:35:42 GMT -7
'tis (old English, I believe, for "it is") dangerous to awaken interest in topics and solicit opinions.... here is an article I would not have read if not for this thread and our exchange, Pieter. An opinion of one of your countrymen, published in the New York Times:
Ditch the King. Hire an Actor.
By ARNON GRUNBERG
Published: April 28, 2013
ON April 30, 1980, Queen Juliana of the Netherlands was succeeded by her daughter Beatrix. That day was marked by violent rioting in Amsterdam. Under the motto “Geen woning, geen kroning†(No roof over our heads, no crown on yours), squatters and anarchists railed against the new queen’s coronation and the country’s housing crisis.
I was 9, and I sat with my mother watching it all on TV. The smoke bombs and riot police made more of an impression on me than the coronation itself. My father was as unimpressed with the squatters as he was with the queen, and spent the day immersed in his stamp collection.
My parents, German Jews who fled to Holland in the 1930s, were not exactly what you’d call royalists. But my mother had a certain weakness for royal families, and especially for the scandals that go hand-in-hand with monarchies.
And when it came to Queen Juliana, my mother got her fill of scandals. Juliana’s husband, Prince Bernhard, was a notorious philanderer who sired any number of illegitimate children and was accused of accepting bribes from Lockheed in the 1970s, forcing him to surrender his status as inspector general of the Dutch armed forces.
The 33-year reign of Queen Beatrix has been relatively free of scandals. The most significant blot on the royal reputation came when her eldest son, Willem-Alexander, who will succeed Beatrix on Tuesday, married a daughter of Jorge Zorreguieta, who served as Argentina’s deputy minister of agriculture during that country’s military dictatorship and in all probability knew about the systematic disappearances during the “dirty war.â€
Another of Beatrix’s sons, Friso — in a coma after a skiing accident in Austria — married Mabel Wisse Smit, a former intimate of the drug lord Klaas Bruinsma, who was murdered in 1991 in front of the Amsterdam Hilton.
Beatrix herself remained above reproach. And her husband, Prince Claus, was seen as a moral beacon. He made a lasting impression on the Dutch public in 1998, during the presentation of awards to three African fashion designers, by calling on the “workers of the world†to throw off their “shackles,†“the serpent around their necks†— a reference to the necktie. He also called Nelson Mandela the best-dressed man he ever knew.
Riots like those in 1980 will probably not take place during the succession this year. Squatters in Amsterdam are few and far between these days, and the progressives of 1980 have shown growing appreciation for the royal house. This is due in no small measure to Beatrix’s disdain for the Party for Freedom, the extreme right-wing party led by the almost-forgotten politician Geert Wilders. Beatrix had little use for Mr. Wilders’s racist, Islamophobic thought.
But beyond expressions of public reproach, the only real political power the queen possessed — the right to appoint the individuals charged with forming a new government — was recently taken from her by parliamentary decree; she played no role whatsoever in the formation of the latest Dutch cabinet.
When NRC Handelsblad, a leading Dutch newspaper, recently described the royal house as “state theater,†it was telling. Indeed, the monarchy these days amounts to little more than a constitutionally compulsory form of performance art.
In that same newspaper, a famous doyenne of the Dutch theater revealed that a few of her colleagues had been discreetly approached with the request to provide the royal family with acting lessons. Those actors, unfortunately, would not to be paid for their services; this job, after all, was an honor.
Today’s advocates of doing away with the monarchy are relatively weak. The Socialist Party is too small to wield real clout, and the Netherlands’ Republican Society makes a drowsy and generally fumbling impression. That latter observation need hardly come as a surprise: why, after all, would one put any serious effort into opposing performance art?
Perhaps because the remuneration for that performance art is a bit uncommon. The future king of the Netherlands, Willem-Alexander, receives a tax-free annual salary of over $1 million, as well as a $5.7 million allowance “for the costs of personnel and material expenses.†His wife, Maxima, also receives a minimal tax-free salary of $425,000 and an additional $750,000 or so as compensation for incidental expenses.
Such sums are a bit overdone in a day in which the Netherlands has imposed drastic cuts on government subsidies for other forms of theater. It does seem old-fashioned of the royal family to try and slip the leash of market mechanisms and meritocracy.
Now that theaters, opera houses and museums cannot exist without sponsors, perhaps it’s time for the Dutch to resign themselves to having a royal family that, during state visits and official occasions, subtly drops the message that this visit was brought to you in part by Royal Dutch Shell. Or Pfizer, for that matter. In these days of globalization, the Dutch royal family shouldn’t necessarily be sponsored only by Dutch enterprises.
And wouldn’t it be nice if, from now on, auditions were held for the roles of king and queen? One could probably find candidates who have far more acting ability than the current royal family and who would also be willing to perform for a fraction of the salary.
Arnon Grunberg, a novelist, is the author of “The Jewish Messiah†and “Tirza.†This essay was translated by Sam Garrett from the Dutch.
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Post by pieter on Apr 29, 2013 5:02:29 GMT -7
Kaima, Yes, the violent protest movement of squaters, anarchist, leftwing youth and students and segments of the Amsterdam population (and other native Dutch anti-monarchists) are gone. It is not 1980, the time that a radical left and some leftist forces had strong anti-Monarchist views from an anti-elitarian and housing shortage (it did exist back then) perspective. In 1980 the police force in Amstedam looked like an army of riot police, with reinforcements from other Dutch cities and provinces. So I combined police force of thousands of Amsterdam, Rotterdam, The Hague, Utrecht police officers together with police forces of smaller Dutch towns. The army was called in and Armored cars and tanks were used to remove barricades. The military police assisted the police. Newspapers, magazines and Dutch television programs say that it was a wonder that there were no casualties (deaths) back then, because the violence back then was extreme. Bricks, rods, metal bars, fire bombs and molotov cocktails were used. Amsterdam looked grim that day and looked like a war zone. The Anarchists managed to get world attention and the coronation was hindered and baffled. Today the world is different, the Netherlands is different, there is the thread of terrorism, and the police force and security forces are better trained than in 1980 after dedaces of Hooligan riots, two political assasinations and earlier disturbances of royal or national events. The Amsterdam and National authorities monitored the Boston bombings, and learned from London and Madrid. In the safety measures in Amsterdam the Dutch police got assistance of the German Polizei, who checked streets, squares, routes, buildings, houses, parks, Recycle Bins, floor drains in the street and etc. Not only a lot of Dutch people will come from all over the Netherlands and from Amsterdam itself, also guests from all over the world and national and international media will be present. Especially Argentinian and German media are interested in the coronation due to Maxima (with her Argentinian past: she has Basque, Italian and Spanish blood). Due to the fact that the Dutch Royal house is largely German, with Dutch, Russian and other elements, many Dutch people like the fact that there is some latin blood in this family of ' cheesheads' (they all look very Germanic, Dutch/German with their square or round faces (heads), cheeshead is a nick name for Dutch people), so that there will be more color and temperament in the family. The Orange family is seen by some as stif, traditional, old fashionate, not modern (up today's standards) and etc. Some think that these people are hostage of their own destiny, role and the protocol around their status and existance as Royals. Their privacy is limited and they represent the Dutch state. Not only the king, but whole the Royal family, with all those princes and princesses. Arnon Grunberg is a well known Dutch writer. He is an intellectual with an ironical sense of humor and is known for provocative statements and absurdistic columns in Dutch (quality) newspapers and magazines. I read one of his novels: " Blue Mondays" ( Blauwe Maandagen in Dutch, Blauer Montag in German). Cheers, Pieter en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arnon_Grunbergde.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arnon_Grunberg |
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Post by pieter on Apr 29, 2013 5:07:57 GMT -7
Kaima, In general everything Arnon Grunberg says is true. About the scandals with Prins Bernhard, the father of Queen Beatrix and the grandfather of King Willem Alexander, and the fact that the father of Maxima was a member of the military dictatorship of Argentine. That cause great turmoil and political problems for both the Dutch government and the Orange family back then. Her father was not allowed to be present at her wedding and other official ceremonies. Another affair is not mentioned in Grunbergs article, the Greet Hofmans affair. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greet_Hofmansde.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greet_HofmansCheers, Pieter |
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Post by pieter on Apr 29, 2013 5:15:22 GMT -7
Kaima, Personaly I am not an anti-monarchist nor a fierce republican in the Dutch context. A president costs a lot of money in the European context with a presidential pallace. Is a king more expensive? Democracies have weaknesses and a king and a president have to be neutral and national figures who represent the state. I have a problem with the fact that the Dutch king is not chosen though and with the principle of an Inheritance Monarchy. The Inheritance Monarchy is a relict of the past and should be changed or transformed in the near future by reforms of the system. You become king or Queen because you are born that way and not because you have worked hard, studied and earned your role as head of a state. In the old sense of Orangists (Monarchists) and Patriots (in the Dutch sense the earliest republicans and anti-monarchists) I consider myself a Patriot. But I respect the present Queen Beatrix and king Willem Alexander, because they are serious and sincere people and leaders and because they are monitored closely by politicians and the Dutch people, and they receive criticism. And that is good! en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriots_(faction)Cheers, Pieter |
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Post by kaima on Apr 29, 2013 8:11:53 GMT -7
A president costs a lot of money in the European context with a presidential pallace. Is a king more expensive? Democracies have weaknesses Pieter, In the US we complain about the expense of our presidents and the airplanes used to fly their staffs around the USA and world. Bush supposedly took 25% of his time in office on vacation! Obama costs no more to fly around the US than Bush did (except for supposedly increased security, the reality of being the first black president) but the loudest objections were due to flying the Speaker of the House back and forth to her Congressional district - again for security due to hate directed at her and our state of war. I have a problem with the fact that the Dutch king is not chosen though and with the principle of an Inheritance Monarchy. The Inheritance Monarchy is a relict of the past and should be changed or transformed in the near future by reforms of the system. You become king or Queen because you are born that way and not because you have worked hard, studied and earned your role as head of a state. What struck me with this comment is the realization that today we have no Elected Kings as back in the old days of monarchies hundreds of years ago! It is interesting that we lost that artifact of early governance and voting. Then to top it off, perhaps hiring an actor would not be such a bad idea. look at how Ronnie Reagan is iconified (deified) in conservative circles in the US. He was a well practiced actor and superb presenter. Perhaps an elected king would be cheaper and more entertaining. PS. Be happy your royal family doesn't have the reputation Britain's has for being rather dumb and dull! PPS. It is strange that I must include deified along with iconified. deified - to adore or regard as a deity: to deify wealth. iconify - (obsolete) - to hold up st. as an icon. iconify - to reduce or in computing, to make into an icon; to reduce to the size of an icon; also called iconize iconify - (street) - to reduce, embarrass, humble, eg. I hate when you iconify me, makes me feel like crap. How the language has changed! |
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It was very good of you of adding the URLs for all to be informed of this very remarkable young King to be.
;D 