|
|
Post by Jaga on Jun 10, 2007 20:42:21 GMT -7
I found it so interesting that there are new missionaries working different way in Western and Northern Europe. Hopefully they would rejuvenate religious life in these countries Foreign Missionaries Find Fertile Ground in Europe Singaporean Pastor Fires Up Staid Danes By Kevin Sullivan Washington Post Foreign Service Monday, June 11, 2007; Page A01 COPENHAGEN -- The "Amens!" flew like popcorn in hot oil as 120 Christian worshipers clapped and danced and praised Jesus as if He'd just walked into the room. In a country where about 2 percent of the population attend church regularly and many churches draw barely enough worshipers to fill a single pew, the Sunday morning service at this old mission hall was one rocking celebration. In the middle of all the keyboards, drums and hallelujahs, Stendor Johansen, a blond Danish sea captain built like a 180-pound ice cube, sang along and danced, as he said, like a Dane -- without moving. The Danish church is boring," said Johansen, 45, who left the state-run Danish Evangelical Lutheran Church three years ago and joined this high-octane interdenominational church run by a missionary pastor from Singapore. "I feel energized when I leave one of these services." ... www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/06/10/AR2007061001267.html?hpid=topnews |
|
|
|
Post by pieter on Jun 11, 2007 2:22:03 GMT -7
Jaga,
I really do believe so Jaga, because under the secular humanist surface lies Christian roots!
Christian heritage is present everywhere in Europe, everywhere you see the old churches,
and many languages are deeply influenced by the bible, because the bible was often the
first or one of the first books written in the language of the people of a country.
For instance Dutch is deeply influence by the Protestant bible translation of 1669.
Another good development is the oecomene, the cooperation between Catholics and
Protestants in Western-European countries, because they find Christian unity and
solidarity important. In Holland Christian faith got a new boost with the new government
of Christian-democrats, Christian-Union (biblical party) and Social-democrats
(the socialist leader also empathised with his Dutch reformed past).
The fierce anti-christian secular, Marxist and Muslim climate is something of the past,
because the various christian denominations recover slowly but stadily!
Pieter
|
|
jeanne
Cosmopolitan
Posts: 544
|
Post by jeanne on Jun 11, 2007 17:36:48 GMT -7
Jaga, I really do believe so Jaga, because under the secular humanist surface lies Christian roots! Christian heritage is present everywhere in Europe, everywhere you see the old churches, and many languages are deeply influenced by the bible, because the bible was often the first or one of the first books written in the language of the people of a country. Pieter, I agree very much with what you are saying, and this is exactly what John Paul II was saying when he wanted a reference in the EU constitution to Christianity being the root of European civilization. He wasn't looking to establish a state religion, he just wanted an acknowledgement of Christianity's important role in the European culture, and hopefully a return to Judeo-Christian values. Jeanne |
|
|
|
Post by Jaga on Jun 11, 2007 20:35:06 GMT -7
Jaga, I really do believe so Jaga, because under the secular humanist surface lies Christian roots! Pieter Pieter, I agree just like Jeanne. So, what do you think about the controversy about adding Christian heritage of Europe in European constitution? We probably discussed it but I do not remember your opinion. The EU constitution is gone anyways.... |
|
|
|
Post by leslie on Jun 12, 2007 2:21:10 GMT -7
I have an unwritten right to be an atheist, agnostic or believer. I have the same right to be a member of any church that I wish, or to not belong to any while still holding my religion. And who gave the right in any country for any church, however strong (in whose opinion?) to act in a governmental position - they were not elected by the people. There are too many sheep in the world ready to be led by their noses.
|
|
|
|
Post by pieter on Jun 12, 2007 11:23:44 GMT -7
Jaga, I really do believe so Jaga, because under the secular humanist surface lies Christian roots! Pieter Pieter, I agree just like Jeanne. So, what do you think about the controversy about adding Christian heritage of Europe in European constitution? We probably discussed it but I do not remember your opinion. The EU constitution is gone anyways.... Jaga, Although I am secular myself I found it rediculous that Christianity could not be mentioned in the European constitution, because it is a fact that Christianity is deeply rooted in the heritage of the European Union. This political correctness or Secular humanist domination ignores Europes character and the fact that the European democracy, and it's political ideologies are rooted in a Christian past. Liberalism, Socialism, Social democracy, christian-democracy and Conservatisme would not exist without christianity. The Renaissance, rational enlightenment and French revolution were reactions on the christian, feodal and patrician realities in that times. Ignoring the Christian character of Europe's christian roots is ignoring our European self. Jaga, I think the ignoring of christianity is a mix of left- and right secularism, Atheïsm inspired by European philosophy (especially french and German), Communism (Marxism-Leninism), European Social-democracy (Utopic socialism replaced christianity in Western Europe by a new Messianic Red workers faith) and a materialistic culture of Consumerism, the Materialistic 24 hours capitalist economy. That Capitalism as inherited elements of Western-European Social democracy, Communism (the propaganda techniques used in adds), Nazism, Fascism and Pop-culture. The last branch that deminished christianity is the holy multi-cultural ideology that dominated Europe for decades. Islam is growing. Pieter |
|
|
|
Post by Jaga on Jun 12, 2007 14:04:45 GMT -7
Pieter, I agree with you 110 % although I am not ateist myself  I do believe that Christianity gave a start and development to Europe and the national identity and this fact should not be denied!! We do not need to live is such a politically correct world as like to say for instance that Muslims are as important in Dutch history as christians are. Yes, christianity brough some problems, wars, conflicts but latin was the European language of the whole european elite, thanks to the church. |
|
|
|
Post by pieter on Jun 13, 2007 8:39:20 GMT -7
Pieter, I agree with you 110 % although I am not ateist myself I do believe that Christianity gave a start and development to Europe and the national identity and this fact should not be denied!! We do not need to live is such a politically correct world as like to say for instance that Muslims are as important in Dutch history as christians are. Yes, christianity brough some problems, wars, conflicts but latin was the European language of the whole european elite, thanks to the church. Jaga, I am not atheïst either, secular does in my view does not mean atheïst, but means the belief in the seperation of church and state, and the attitude of being against to much influece of religion in politics. Everywhere where you see a large involvement of religion in politics that there are major problems. Israel (Messianic Judaism) and Palestine (Islamist movement), Lebanon (Shia and Sunni clashes, Muslims against christians and vice versa), Iraq, Northern-Ireland, Turkey (the intolerance of the Sunni majority against religious minorities), and etc. etc. Faith is a personal or a community matter and belongs inside houses, churches or religious gatherings, but it should stay outside politics, outside the parlaiment and outside political processes. From the same time you can have religious inspired politicians, religious parties and politicians. But in the political debate, proces, developement and policy making they have to face the secular reality of politics, the materialistic core which is behind politics (it's about structures, systems, finances and rules), the reality of a nation, of it's regions and of practical solutions. Only in ethical, moral and idealistic fields politics can be inspired by for instance a Christian(-democratic), Jewish, islamic, Hindu or Buddhist background or opinion. In Europe it is a fact that the origin or roots/heritage of the majority of politicians lies in one of the Christian denominations, the red family (Social-democatic, Communist or otherwise) or secular Liberalism or Conservatism. Populism is quite a new phenomenon and has it roots in all larger political movements in Europe. Having said all this I stil believe Christianity belongs in the EU constitution as one of the cornerstones of the European heritage! Pieter |
|
|
|
Post by kaima on Jun 14, 2007 20:38:13 GMT -7
I will disagree with John Paul II and all the others. A reference to Christianity has no place in a constitution for governance of people other than for governance within a church. Certainly not in a civil society.
There are plenty of places to acknowledge and honor the influence and 'roots' in Christianity, but then what would we do with the even deeper roots in Paganism and side roots in Mohammadism and Wodin and Bailobog. Are we going to neglect the development of society in Moorish Spain, a land that was Muslim for many hundreds of years, and reversed progress in civilization upon the return of Christianity? The Christian surface sheen in Europe has been scratched often enough over the last 1000 years to fully demonstrate the thin veneer it offers over the underlying human barbarism.
There is plenty of morality and ethics in societies around the world to demonstrate that Europe can be civilized, moral and ethical without invoking Christianity by name. Then if you do invoke 'Christianity", which of the 1500 verities and interpretations do you invoke? Many of the most prominent “Christians” have a fine history of murder and mayhem hidden somewhere in their background, but I guess I covered that in the previous paragraph – look at that same 1000 years of Christian practice! That is not an ideal basis for establishing any standard to live by.
The Mohammedans and even the godless Communists lived as morally and as immorally as the followers of Christ. The Europeans have taken their churches and changed them, as is the want in most lands, to include the Paganisms of the past, a paganism that was partially given up and partially absorbed into the local Christianity. Look at the upcoming celebration of St John’s Night (Noc Świętojańska), the Pagan solstice with a veneer of Christianity, or even the birth of Christ, celebrated with the paganisms that preceded Christ at the opposite end of the year.
You will end up in the quandary we currently have in the United States, where we have some idealists invoking Our Forefathers and either a) their demonstrated Christian ideals, or b) their demonstrated Agnosticism, to make whatever point they want. Today the current wave is toward closer cooperation of church and state. In the past we have had a greater and seemingly clearer division between church and state, but we have always had the conflict of deciding where this line of separation should be drawn. Some see it as black and white, others as a grey area, and today, still others see it as a separation that should not be made.
Draw the reference to Christianity into your constitution, no matter how innocently, and your future generations will fight the same battles. Then again, it could even be worse in United Europe, as you start from a foundation in feudalism, monarchies and young democracies that have a centuries long tradition of church meddling in government of the lands.
There are other ways and other places you can honor the good side of your Christian roots without inserting it in your basic law.
|
|
|
|
Post by oldpolish on Jul 20, 2007 17:58:00 GMT -7
The paganism does not take as big deal in European culture as Christianity. Of course it refers ONLY to countries which had evolved from barbarian German and Romance kingdoms such as France. Simply we don't have so many cultural influences of Slavic or German pantheons as we have those of Cicero, Philo of Alexandria and Jerome. It is not a matter of confessional identity but just a fact recognized deeply by scholars. yes, the deal of Muslim culture is not small but we are to remember that all Arabic science came to improve Europe through Christian adaptation and development. History of Scholastic is but the one example.
You must forgive me the symbol I'd like to use, but blood of Christ is still in the veins of West however Christ himself seems to be buried.
It is not my invention. Czesław Miłosz said that influence of Christianity is still visible in the time when West is out-rooted of purely religious aspects of Church.
|
|
