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Post by Jaga on Nov 18, 2015 14:33:07 GMT -7
I am not surprised that people all over the world do not accept easily other people. This happened to Jews, now it is happening to Syrian. There are some homophobic Poles and Americans..... still, here in Idaho it is really bad. To tell you truth guys, my problem with finding good job is an effect of not having a right faith (the majority here are Mormon) and being from a different country and also being a woman. Since women here are not supposed to be professionals, especially teaching high math/physics/engineering - these jobs are for men usually. Today I was buying coffee today in EITC, the community college where I work part-time, and a lady selling the coffee asked me where I am from.... and when I said that I was born in Poland she said " I knew you are not here". I wanted to add.... I AM IN IDAHO FOR 15 YEARS. WHY I AM NOT FROM HERE? ? But I didn't, I was too shy. |
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Post by karl on Nov 18, 2015 16:28:16 GMT -7
Jaga
I am sorry of your experience as being an unpleasant one, if it helps, in my sincer opinion, you conducted your self very decently and acted correctly. There is an aspect I am not sure of why, but Americans seem to have strong opinions of accents.
For you would know best for being there, but would you perhaps consider the lady was only asking in an interested curiosity? Whilst on the other hand, for being a resident in the city for 15 years, I would suspect the lady would remember you from seeing you on the street or at the market.
Yes with Mormans, they are a closed sect and if occupying a position of decision, would by their nature chose one of their own over what they would consider an outsider. It is unfortionant, but this is reality and I would strongly suspect you have handled it very well.
The area seems to have a scent of segregation by sex in the work place, meaning a preference of male over female in choices of positions that are professional. If so, this is a difficult situation to break into unless you know some one that is a department head you wish to enter.
But as above, you know the world you live in best and with this, know best how to conduct it to your advantage.
Karl
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Post by kaima on Nov 18, 2015 21:36:07 GMT -7
Today I was buying coffee today in EITC, the community college where I work part-time, and a lady selling the coffee asked me where I am from.... and when I said that I was born in Poland she said " I knew you are not here". I wanted to add.... I AM IN IDAHO FOR 15 YEARS. WHY I AM NOT FROM HERE?? But I didn't, I was too shy. Jaga, You speak with an accent, and as you say, you are not in the right church. To me, the meaning behind saying "You are not from here" would depend upon tone. I have most often seen it when people, including me, did not speak like a local. Years in a place did not count. In one sense it does not mean "You do not belong here", only that "I recognize that you are not from here". ... and in the best of cases it can be taken as an invitation for an enlightening conversation, starting with "I have been in the States for XX years and Idaho for XX years, but originally come from Poland, (before, or shortly after) the fall of communism. I am happy living in the US, and am really pleased to see how Poland has changed since the Wall came down." It seems Americans measure the fall of communism in Europe "since the Wall fell down". Maybe so they can praise Saint Reagan and his blowing his horn at Jerico did.   I imagine as soon as you started talking politics or care for people you would be perceived as an outsider. So it is. I was in Fairbanks 11 years before I could perceive that was a "respectable" amount of time. In discussing that with my neighbor with 30 years in Fairbanks, quite a nice town, I discovered that the hierarchy ranked her as "only" 30 years. The truly respectable people were in town 2 and even 3 generations! I went off track when I got into the politics of the Wall and all.... I would recommend taking the comment as curiosity about where you are from, and an invitation to engage in a light but informative conversation. How far the conversation goes, or if it really is a superficial comment should soon become obvious. Kai |
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Post by Jaga on Nov 18, 2015 21:40:05 GMT -7
Karl, you are right, the lady was not nasty or anything like that..... I have still to find my way here, in this very close-minded community. It is not easy. The segregation here is loud and sound.... Maybe my fate is directed in a way that I need to be challenged more than average.....
who knows... at least I became a bit more street-smart.
we will see, both of us are travelers and outsiders to the certain extend, but we also choose this way.
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Post by Jaga on Nov 18, 2015 22:22:17 GMT -7
Kai,
you are probably right. This lady has nothing bad in mind. Unfortunately the accent does not help in education jobs, which give the only decent salary, except working in the INL or hospital where I probably do not belong. There are many people who never really travelled outside Idaho and the last two years were unreasonably hard for me, so I am getting sometimes too sensitive. Thanks for your support..... yeah, the feeling of not belonging is hard, so it is good to have the internet.
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Post by karl on Nov 19, 2015 6:42:26 GMT -7
Karl, you are right, the lady was not nasty or anything like that..... I have still to find my way here, in this very close-minded community. It is not easy. The segregation here is loud and sound.... Maybe my fate is directed in a way that I need to be challenged more than average..... who knows... at least I became a bit more street-smart. we will see, both of us are travelers and outsiders to the certain extend, but we also choose this way. Jaga Perhaps I think too much, too deeply, and, perhaps not. Whilst though of your reply, brought to my self a bit of my self for your mention of "travelers and outsiders". For my self, since leaving Denmark for Germany in 1956, I have always been as a visitor in where ever, I do not mind, for once a supervisor told me," I am alone even in a crowd". This has been my life and it has been good to me. But, this is not you, for you are a sensitive women with home responsibilities with your family, and the frustrations of social life mixed with the economics of a place in the work force in the manner you are accustomed to by training and inclination. With your description of the social area you live in, it does appear as have described as being a closed in area with the locals mind set of being," us and you". As forementioned, I am confident you handled the situation in a very thoughtful manner, for then the monkey has been transferred off your back onto theirs. An advantage you do have in this situation is: You are not stuck in social level of that society, for with your accent setting your self aside. You have the advantage of cross cultural transfer. What I mean by this, is the you can easily be accepted by such groups as bankers/lawyers/ the upper social and economic groups, then also be accepted by blue collar working groups. A very decidedly advantage. The above has been for many years my own formula with my work and social life. It is not taking advantage of people nor of a bad nature in doing, just a manner of surviving in a constant fluid world we live in. As a small example of a personal experience that in the first, could have been my own downfall: Some years past, my work took me into an area of economic lack of work for the local people. These people were very suspicious of outsiders, and here I am with my accent suddenly as if dropped out from the moon upon the midst of these people. Upon checking into a room, was then as it was hot that day, to make a visit to the local tavern for a cold beer. Well, once entering, several of the unemployed fellows, stopped their conversation and looked in my direction. Through the silence to then set down amongst them and order a beer and some popcorn. To break the silence, was to speak to the fellow seated next about the beer and out side heat. His reply was short with a remark that my English was strange. I finished my beer and left. For as my time was short and laundry was a need, I then stopped by the hotel, picked up my laundry, to then contract the lady owner of the local laundry matt for cleaning and pick up. Upon returning the following day for pick up, the lady had not only washed the cloths, but had ironed the shirts and very neatly staked them in the box I had provided. Once checking the bill she provided, I then smiled at her and remarked," What a lovely job you have done, but, your bill is too small, I then gave her a generous over payment which she refused". To preserve her honest dignity, I was then to say, " I understand your situation, but please accept this extra for your family and I will be here once weekly for this two to three weeks". It worked and saved me the problem of laundry. But, this was not the end. Poor people in a small town talk, and news travels very quickly. For the following week, I was greeted by people I had no idea who they were. The tavern I had stayed out of, now was a friendly place and the fellows were talkative and, with this, was to learn a great deal of their town and an area of my interest at that time. And, this place was with a very tiny kitchen that made the best fries and Hamburgers I have ever had the pleasure of eating. My point in all of this is: Small town people talk, and to exchange a situation that does not set well at the time, with a nice smile sets the future issues into a friendship. Not every thing is perfect, but rather we wish to be or not, we are ambassidores of where our accents relate to. Karl |
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Post by pieter on Nov 19, 2015 9:46:52 GMT -7
I am not surprised that people all over the world do not accept easily other people. This happened to Jews, now it is happening to Syrian. There are some homophobic Poles and Americans..... still, here in Idaho it is really bad. To tell you truth guys, my problem with finding good job is an effect of not having a right faith (the majority here are Mormon) and being from a different country and also being a woman. Since women here are not supposed to be professionals, especially teaching high math/physics/engineering - these jobs are for men usually. Today I was buying coffee today in EITC, the community college where I work part-time, and a lady selling the coffee asked me where I am from.... and when I said that I was born in Poland she said " I knew you are not here". I wanted to add.... I AM IN IDAHO FOR 15 YEARS. WHY I AM NOT FROM HERE?? But I didn't, I was too shy. Dear Jaga, I am sorry that I react so late on this serious and sad subject. I am sorry that you experienced that lady at the coffee counter. This ethnic labeling and being foreign or immigrant thing is unfortunately an experience many people have in many countries, due to their ethnic, cultural, racial, religious or even political background. You maybe are a victim of being labeled foreign due to a 'slavic' (read 'Polish') accent in your American English. If you were educated and raised with British English, you will have a 'double problem', a British-English accent with a Polish slav accent in it. But probably you have more experience with American English right now. But experiencing xenophobia or discriminatory remarks due to your background is always painful. I was in Arnhem South this afternoon for a topic about playing, healthy food (enough vegetables and fruit) and drinking enough water (in staid of Fanta, Coca Cola and sweet juices with a lot of sugar) and enough movement. They specially designed a healthy green playground for the kids of that Roman-Catholic primary school there. It is a neighborhood with 120 nationalities, and I saw children there from all races, all colors and every ethnic background you can imagine. From Africa, the Middle east, North-Africa, Afghanistan, Iran, Southern-America, the Carribean, Central- and Eastern-Europe. And I though about your case when I interviewed the school director, the alderman of Sport (from the Socialist Party), and a guy from a Health organisation for kids. Fact is that everybody is different on that school and in that neighborhood and therefor everyone is equal. But they have an obesitas problem there because most kids come from low income families and have parents with a low education. We have the threat of terrorism now and fear of Islamists and maybe newcommers, but fact is that there is not so much racism, xenophobia or discrimination, because people are used to the differences now. Fact is that a lot of these middle-eastern pupils on that school with Middle-eastern looks, or beige and brown skin aren't Muslim migrant kids like I presumed (thought). A lot of them are kids of christian middle-eastern parents, Assyrian christians, Copts, Maronites and Armenian crhistians who fled the middle east. Next to them you had white native European Dutch working class kids there, and children from parents who came from the Dutch colonies. And there were also Muslim children on that Roman-Catholic (christian) school. When I grew up as a child my mother also had a slav Polish accent in Dutch, and she stil has. But next to remarks like yours she also got compliments or positive replies from people who liked her 'charming' accent. Some thought she was French, others recognised her Slav accent. I am sorry for your experience. That wasn't nice. Cheers, Pieter |
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Post by pieter on Nov 19, 2015 11:36:30 GMT -7
This is the school and the subject/topic I wrote about here:
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Post by Jaga on Nov 19, 2015 12:43:59 GMT -7
Karl, thank you for sharing your story. This reminded me my stay in Bosnia-Hercegovina when the host did laundry for me, for a small portion of what other pilgrims had to pay in the hotel.....and she was so nice! It is very important to understand local people. I was not aware of it since I am a big city girl originally. I come from Krakow with over 0.5 mln population. For the first 5-7 years I worked for the university 50 miles away, later for mainly online companies, and I did not really have a chance to meet local people. There are lots of great people here in Idaho, but when we originally moved here I did not realize that many places are run by locals in their own way. These people have a hard time accepting others. I am pretty sure that if not a discrimination, I could still be in the same school where I was last year. By the way, even in the school, where 95% are LDS, many people were very supportive. Just last night I met mother of one student and she was asking me how I am doing, her daughter was one of the best, most curious and most assertive women. Now I am in a local college and the atmosphere is much more open. We have lots of ex-Mormons.... people who do not practice and understand the limitations of people who are a part of the majority. I also believe that the experience of the last two years was very useful. I learned much more during these last two years than anytime before. Karl, what do you like the most in Pueblo, Mexico? Some years past, my work took me into an area of economic lack of work for the local people. These people were very suspicious of outsiders, and here I am with my accent suddenly as if dropped out from the moon upon the midst of these people. Upon checking into a room, was then as it was hot that day, to make a visit to the local tavern for a cold beer. Well, once entering, several of the unemployed fellows, stopped their conversation and looked in my direction. Through the silence to then set down amongst them and order a beer and some popcorn. To break the silence, was to speak to the fellow seated next about the beer and out side heat. His reply was short with a remark that my English was strange. I finished my beer and left. For as my time was short and laundry was a need, I then stopped by the hotel, picked up my laundry, to then contract the lady owner of the local laundry matt for cleaning and pick up. Upon returning the following day for pick up, the lady had not only washed the cloths, but had ironed the shirts and very neatly staked them in the box I had provided. Once checking the bill she provided, I then smiled at her and remarked," What a lovely job you have done, but, your bill is too small, I then gave her a generous over payment which she refused". To preserve her honest dignity, I was then to say, " I understand your situation, but please accept this extra for your family and I will be here once weekly for this two to three weeks". It worked and saved me the problem of laundry. My point in all of this is: Small town people talk, and to exchange a situation that does not set well at the time, with a nice smile sets the future issues into a friendship. Not every thing is perfect, but rather we wish to be or not, we are ambassidores of where our accents relate to. Karl |
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Post by pieter on Nov 19, 2015 13:04:02 GMT -7
Jaga, Over here people at my job (workplace), and sometimes amongst (some) friends, and acquaintances and other people I know in the Netherlands sometimes make xenophobic remarks concerning Slavic or Central/Eastern-European people (Romanians, Bulgarians and Hungarians), knowing that I am half Polish. It is a national, regional and sometimes even local thing. Some people are 100% National, regional and local, their ancestors (great-great-grandparents, great grandparents, grandparents, parents, uncles, aunts, cousins, nephews, nieces, sisters and brothers have lived in the same place for centuries, half a century and/or decades), and their neighbours, friends, colleages and people of their local church, sport club and local party are also 100% Dutch in their perception (eyes). They are very provincial, chauvinistic, small minded, ethnocentric people who have no knowledge of the world, not traveled anywhere and are not the brightest people of the world. They don't understand that you come from a European nation with a rich christian, romanesque, Gothic, Renaissance, classicist, enlightenment, scientific, cultural, musical, financial-economical and literary (proze and poetry) heritage. They don't understand that people with a Polish Western-Slav background have contributed greatly the American civilisation (culture, state, democracy, science and economy), both Polish Roman-Catholics and Polish jews by the way. They don't know that there are 10 million Polish Americans in the USA, and that there are a lot of American people with partly Polish background, like Ela. In Idaho Polish-American make up 1.65% of the population. In Wisconsin they are 9.65% and in Michigan 9.59% of the population. In Illinois where my Polish-American cousin lives they make 8.13% of the Population. The lady selling the coffee to you is simply a blunt and ignorant person without empathy. What does it matter what accent a person has if she speaks the language. The Polish community was long the subject of anti-Polish sentiment in America. The word, Polack, has become a racial slur. Much of this prejudice was associated with anti-Catholicism and early 20th century worries, about being overrun by Central European immigrants. Wave of immigration (1989–present) Polish immigration to the United States experienced a small wave in the years following 1989. Specifically, the fall of the Berlin Wall and the subsequent fall of Soviet control freed emigration from Poland. A pent-up demand of Poles who previously were not allowed to emigrate was satisfied, and many left for Germany or America. The United States Immigration Act of 1990 admitted immigrants from 34 countries adversely affected by a previous piece of immigration legislation; in 1992, when the Act was implemented, over a third of Polish immigrants were approved under this measure. The most popular destination for Polish immigrants following 1989 was Chicago, followed by New York City. This was the oldest cohort of immigrants from Poland, averaging 29.3 years in 1992. Polish Americans are largely assimilated to American society and personal connections to Poland and Polish culture are scarce. Of the 10 million Polish Americans, only about 4% are immigrants; the American-born Poles predominate. Among Poles of single ancestry, about 90% report living in a mixed-ethnic neighborhood, usually with other white ethnics. No congressional district or large city in the United States is predominantly Polish, although several Polish enclaves exist. Polish Americans continue to face discrimination and negative stereotyping in the United States. Jaga, unfortunately you are an ethnic minority over there, and I consider Mormons to be a little bit sectarian. It's like being non-protestant in the bible belt in the Netherlands, where Calvinist Protestant Dutch Reformed christians are the majority. You were an alien in the past if you moved to that area as a non-Calvinist person with a different faith or culture. You were considered less biblical, less christian and if you had bad luck considered to be a heathen or of the wrong church (Roman-Catholic or Lutheran). I am sorry that you have to live and work in such a male chauvinistic environment in which you are made or feel to be a minority and alien. I hope that you will have other people who are also a minority or alien to them, so that you have people who understand your minority and 'being different' status. Mormons have their way of thinking, their faith and their own state Utah. Due to you I know now that they also dominate in Idaho. Cheers, Pieter |
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Post by pieter on Nov 19, 2015 15:13:08 GMT -7
Dear Jaga,
My latest reply had elements of Kai's story. Your version of the 100% national, regional and local people, Kai, was the excellent example of Fairbanks, "The truly respectable people were in town 2 and even 3 generations!" This localism and regionalism is very present in the Netherlands too. A college of mine is a interviewing tv journalist, and I am her cameraman for 'This is Arnhem' (Dit is Arnhem). One day we filmed an interview with an Arnhem artist, who is rooted in an Arnhem family of generations. My college is also part of such a family. Since I am interested in art and have the same sort of background as the artist I participated in the conversation.
At a certain point my college suddenly made the comment. We Arnhem people know this, you can't because you are not an Arnhem person. (Meaning, that I am born in Apeldoorn in 1970, where I lived for three months, after that moved with my parents to the Province of Zeeland, where I lived for 20 years in Vlissingen. And after that lived and studied for 2 years in Amsterdam and The Hague. She knows my background, she knows my story. Next to a colleage of mine she is a dear friend of mine too.) I live in Arnhem since 1992. The fact that I lived, studied and worked in another part of the Netherlands from 1970 until 1992, was enough for her to call me 'Not a Native Arnhem person', but an 'Outsider', an 'Alien'.
I am very fond of my college, and wasn't even offended by her remark that 'I am not an Arnhem person' like she 'the Arnhem girl' (Arnhems meisje) and he (the artist) 'the Arnhem boy' (Arnhemse jongen). Yes, I am import, and I know it. I live in Arnhem for 23 years now, but I am stil 'Import', 'someone who comes from elsewhere', and someone like John said about Fairbanks, who does not have great-great-grandparents, great-grandparents, grandparents, parents and uncles, aunts, brothers and sisters, cousins, nephews and nieces who were and are Arnhem people. Some Arnhem people speak the typical Arnhem peoples dialect others don't but they are 'Arnhem people', because they are rooted in Arnhem, have a family history in Arnhem, are linked to Arnhem and are some kind of Arnhem chauvinists or city patriots.
I am not stuck to Arnhem, because my parents stil live in Zeeland, some of my best friends stil live in Amsterdam or elsewhere in the West (North-Holland province at the North-sea coast). I like Arnhem, but I could easily move back to Vlissingen or Amsterdam. I wouldn't have a problem with living and working in Amsterdam, Rotterdam, The Hague, Utrecht, Groningen, S'Hertogenbosch (Den Bosch) or even Zutphen, Enschede or other places in the Netherlands. Could live in any Western nation which has the Western democratic political system, freedom and democracy, and a language I could learn. My mother moved to the Netherlands, my sister to South-Africa, my aunt (my mothers sister) to the USA. I think it is in our family blood and genes to move. And my father moved from city to city in the Netherlands before he finally settled with my mom and us in that coastal town in the South-Western part of the Netherlands. We were different there too, like you in Idaho, Fairbanks, Seattle (Karl) or Mexico (Karl).
Cheers,
Pieter
P.S.- Ofcourse exactly the same as the Arnhem example you have with other cities and towns in the Netherlands, even those I mentioned I would like to live in. You have it everywhere in the Netherlands, Belgium, Germany, France, Poland, the USA, Canada, Austria, Switzerland, Italy, Spain and many other countries. Provincial Mormons, Rednecks, chauvinists and small minded people you have everywhere. My colleagues remark wasn't even hostile. Not chauvinist or nationalist. It was a mild remark, tongue in the cheek like, teasing. But it worked. I felt they are the Arnhem people, and I was different, I come from elsewhere .
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Post by pieter on Nov 19, 2015 16:08:40 GMT -7
Karl, you are right, the lady was not nasty or anything like that..... I have still to find my way here, in this very close-minded community. It is not easy. The segregation here is loud and sound.... Maybe my fate is directed in a way that I need to be challenged more than average..... who knows... at least I became a bit more street-smart. we will see, both of us are travelers and outsiders to the certain extend, but we also choose this way. Dear Jaga, Some people want to avoid being different and try to assimilate and integrate completely by studying, learning and thus copying the local or regional dialect (in your case the Idaho accent), learn about the Mormon faith, customs, traditions and culture. They will go into details, into structures and systems, in the local history and try to fit in. Some succeed in that, but become partly alienated from themselves, because they forget about or loose their own heritage, history and thus backgrounds. Others manage to merge their own past identity abroad with their new identity of their existence and living in the place they are as newcomers or someone who lives there already for 15 (your example) or 23 (my example) years. You can't change the fact that we are not locals, because we haven't spend our childhood, teenage years and early adolescence in the places where we live. I went to Arnhem when I was 22. I had had a life elsewhere and had to built a new life here. I recognise myself a tiny little bit in Karl's story. We are different, but we share the fact that we are loners, individuals, who went to different places than where we come from. I hope that you are realistic and pragmatic Jaga, and that you realise that you will never fit totally 100% in that close-minded community. You are Roman-Catholic and I think you will stay Roman-Catholic. You will not convert to the Mormon faith, even though there will be pressure from the Mormons that surround you, because Mormons are active converters, due to their Mormon Missionary activities and duties.I believe that every young Mormon or Mormon student has to work for Mormon Mission one year of his or her lives. My mother experienced hypnotic Mormon tactics in the Netherlands when she was here as a young woman. She escaped from the influence of these two Mormon American Missionary students by fleeing to the neighbours. I hope that you will manage to find and/or create your own comfortable and self supporting social structures, groups or circles. That you have a solid base in your own home with your husband and child. That your church community will give you some consolation. That you might have some support from your connection with and contact with the Polish American Diaspora community in the USA. That you might have some good dear friends, nice colleagues and hopefully some good and friendly neighbours. I hope that the non-Mormon people over there can find comfort in contact with each other and maybe some less extreme or close-minded Mormons? I hope that you will find your way to live with this disturbance of your life or barrier. I hope that you can overcome cultural and religious differences and can put your label as 'alien' or 'being different' in context (perspective). you are who you are. You are a fine mother, fine sister, fine daughter (to your parents), a nice partner, a good colleage and maybe a fine aunt to your nephews and nieces if you have them. Don't focus your attention on the ideas or remarks of small minded, isolationist, local people. Cheers, Pieter |
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Post by pieter on Nov 19, 2015 16:33:51 GMT -7
Dear Karl,
I have had this kind of experiences as well, both in the Netherlands and Great-Britain. And I was for a too short time in those places to be able to experience what came after that too you. The laundry lady and the change of mindset of these hostile people in the local pub.
Like I mentioned earlier, it is like the Netherlands (and other nations in Europe) is cut into regional and local pieces with different kinds of people with different kinds of dialects, accents and regional languages in it. I experienced it when I was working for an art project in the South, when local artists acted hostile in a regionalistic way. They rejected me because I had a Northern accent and a Northern way of behaving myself. I communicated and acted different than them. They are more indirectly and speak in Metaphors. My direct way of speaking and Hard-G Northern accent weren't appreciated. And to my stunning surprise I was received by a Southern Nationalistic hostility in the sense of Brabant Nationalism. Another time on my way through Brabant I was hungry and stopped at a local bar-restaurant along the road. I wanted to eat something and ordered a meal and a coca cola (I couldn't drink beer because I had to drive). The guys, local Brabant workers immediately started to look suspicious and started to whisper with each other, and looked at my direction in a funny way. They made it clear with their body language, that I was considered to be a weird, alien, stranger who was stresspassing their territory. That I was temporary there and that it was better not to stay there to long and that it would be okay that I would leave again. The bar tender lady was polite and friendly. But the chaps staid unfriendly and were grim looking during whole my stay there. Like you I finished after I had done my meal. Normally I would have ordered a coffee and maybe a desert. Now I wanted to leave as quickly as possible. I felt unwanted there.
The same happened as a student in Oxford in the summer of 1989. We went there to an English pub, and after our passports were checked it was made clear to us that this was a British club and pub, and that foreigners and aliens could better stay out. Okay we were clients (visitors of them), but we weren't local Oxfordian people, nor real Brits. So we should be silent and did not put the attention on ourselves. We enjoyed ourselves when we merged into the crowd and became invisible. But the doormen had been extremely unfriendly, xenophobic and hostile. The free rounds were for the Aussi's (Australians). In contrast with us aliens the Australians were welcome and popular. Your experience in that area of economic lack of work for the local people was a more long term experience, because you stayed there for a longer time. But I experienced similar work circumstances and living conditions when I lived in poorer parts of South-Arnhem as a student and a young working man. The people there speak the local dialect of Arnhem and judge others who do not belong to their ethnic and cultural Arnhem working class culture of employed and unemployed workers, with their Arnhem working class dialect and fanatic love for the Arnhem soccer team Vitesse. I have zero to nothing with Vitesse, because I am not a soccer fanatic, nor do I follow the soccer competition. I have zero emotions about Vitesse, but many Arnhem people are deeply connected with and supporters for all their lives. Great granddad was Vitesse supporter, grandfather was/is Vitesse supporter, and father, son and grandson are Vitesse supporter.
Vitesse Arnhem supporters
I haven't experienced this or lived through this and that's why I am not an Arnhemmer, but a person who lives and works in Arnhem
In other area's with locals with heavy dialects or regional languages I can't understand I feel like an alien too. (Like some places in Friesland or in Limburg, where they have ugly heavy German-Dutch dialects).
Cheers,
Pieter
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Post by Jaga on Nov 23, 2015 20:02:06 GMT -7
Pieter,
sorry I did not reply earlier. Somehow I missed your post.
+++I saw children there from all races, all colors and every ethnic background you can imagine. From Africa, the Middle east, North-Africa, Afghanistan, Iran, Southern-America, the Carribean, Central- and Eastern-Europe. And I though about your case when I interviewed the school director, the alderman of Sport (from the Socialist Party), and a guy from a Health organisation for kids. Fact is that everybody is different on that school and in that neighborhood and therefor everyone is equal. But they have an obesitas problem there because most kids come from low income families and have parents with a low education.+++
You have a very good point there. Lots of these mideastern people are not even muslims.... it is so easy to generalize
I think, it is hard to get a right perspective unless we are there.
Referring to obesity, it is a problem of low middle class here in the US also.
Idaho is very different from a typical big city place. There are really few minorities here except maybe Hispanics. But the LDS church has an overwhelming influence into lots of things, and it is hard here for people who do not "belong" although on the personal level I have lots of good friends from LDS church.
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Post by Eric on Nov 25, 2015 3:57:47 GMT -7
Xenophobia has reared its ugly head in America once again. America, I think, likes its isolation, which comes from its plain physical isolation in the world. America has only two real neighbors: Canada, which is, in most cases, "America Junior," and Mexico, against which Trump's idea of building a border wall and charging Mexico for its construction still remains quite popular with a large segment of the American voting public.
How ironic that America, a nation FOUNDED on immigration (illegal immigration, at that!), has become so anti-immigrant than even long-time immigrant residents and citizens are still considered to be "not one of us."
Add to this the fact that the "average American" is so uneducation and poorly informed about world events... and the fact that the "average American" WANTS to keep it that way. Yes, America likes its isolation, even though the "average American" also wants America to be the #1 ruler in the whole world.
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? But I didn't, I was too shy.
