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Post by Jaga on Sept 14, 2007 10:12:09 GMT -7
There is the article in the newest Gazeta Wyborcza that men have a very hard time to be hired as the salemen for grocery, bakery or shoe stores. Very often in advertisements it is already specified that the store owners want the women only.... is it because women are considered cleaner (and this is a necessity while selling food) or, the work does not pay that much and store owners are worried that men would demand more? Or maybe something else? here is the article in Polish: praca.gazeta.pl/gazetapraca/1,74785,4487064.html |
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Post by leslie on Sept 14, 2007 11:27:13 GMT -7
Jaga
I thought - but obviously incorrectly that sex discrimination was outlawed as part of the EU Treaty in force. Certainly, if such an advert had appeared in UK the perpetrators would have been prosecuted (and rightly so).
Leslie
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Post by Jaga on Sept 14, 2007 11:30:54 GMT -7
Leslie,
but can you really persecute a private owner if he prefers to hire women than men or vice-versa?
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zooba
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Post by zooba on Sept 14, 2007 11:48:29 GMT -7
There used to be a case that a man was refused a job because the owner preferred women because they are more accurate and don't steal. He sued the owner and won. Such cases are difficult to win as you have to prove that you were turned down because of your sex and how to prove this? A smart private owner will never admit such justification of the decision.... Today I was at a job interview and then was telling my husband how it went: I told the professor that I have to children. My husband asked me: why on earth did you tell this? Men never say about children... Why did I?  |
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Post by pieter on Sept 14, 2007 12:04:25 GMT -7
I certainly like the fact that there are more women than men in my team at radio Arnhem?  But in the same time I have nothing against working with men, most often the technicians are male. Sometimes I like working with men better, because they can get to the point while women need more discussion or debate. From the other side it would be d**n boring without women. I worked in a printing firm with only men, that was boring! The mix of men and women is nice and healthy. In my experiance women are good at doing several things in the same time while men are often very good at doing one thing at a time! ;D Pieter |
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Post by leslie on Sept 14, 2007 12:45:07 GMT -7
Jaga
Yes. Because there is a firm sex anti-discrimination law in the UK (also age. disability). It is possible to get a ruling allowing an employer to go against these laws - for example showing that a woman would not be strong enough to do a job that physically only a man can do, but there has to be extreme proof that only a man could do it.
Leslie
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Post by bescheid on Sept 14, 2007 15:51:43 GMT -7
I think perhaps this possible is a case by case situation and not so much as a broad assumption. Or, perhaps I am not so familiar with the work place common practice.
Germany has very strong equal rights protection for both men and woman. The woman has some advantages to that for men,as woman become pregnant, and men do not, this would be in the {Mutterschutzgestz} {Maternity Protection Act of 1968}.
It is to the actual work day practice that is the true test of equal rights. In practice, I am not sure to the extent that these laws are violated other then on fringe areas usually mutually agreed upon by employer and employee.
In the Civil Service sector, it is strictly enforced. Whilst accomplishing my duty service in Personnel. The work position each potential employee was applying for, was equal access to female or male. In the event of the male/female applicant, some questions pre-written in the application, would indicate the expected condition requirement of the person in the normal pursuit of their work. If the work requirement was in the area of a building cleaner, and they would be working in a work environment of both sex's, they would be required before entering an area of the opposite sex {toilet cleaning} to prior announce them selves as male/female entering. This would be the requirement of the work applied for.
Dress code: If the work conditions require, then both sexes must whilst in the work place, be suitably attired. If safety equipment is the requirement, then the employee must by notification, be required to wear or present the required safety equipment. {It usually is the objection of wearing of such equipment [safety hard hat] for reason of hair style.
With equal work with equal salary, this is standard. For in civil service, there is not distinction of sexes with the wage structure. It is entirely equal.
My work was verification of their identity/work experience/qualifications and accuracy of their disclosure forms.
Some moments of embarrassment was experienced by my self with a small few individuals. One person was actually a woman passing self as a man. She looked/acted and for all purposes in appearance, was a man. Until she excused her self for a visit to the toilet. I signed off a visitor pass to walk un- escorted the 4 meter distance to the nearby hall mens toilet. Within 10 minutes, I was notified by security of a woman caught in the mens toilet. I then located the man/lady, escorted her to my office for a final interview. Reexamination of her original file disclosed she had actually stated she was female. This fact had escaped previous initial interview persons, it was my job to have caught the mistake if the initial file had been presented as available, although this would have been disclosed during polygraph examination at the next step of her interview process.
The later lady was the person who killed poor Oskar {the office mouse pet} with her shoe. She was truthful with her personal declaration as verified by the psychology report. She possessed strong psychopathic tendencies. She was very well suited for the position applied for. Also I signed off her interview as approved.
I am not sure poor dead Oskar would have approved, but he was dead.
Charles
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Post by hollister on Sept 15, 2007 4:58:29 GMT -7
Charles,
You made me laugh out loud - over the story of poor Oskar and the man/lady.....
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Post by Jaga on Sept 15, 2007 9:02:42 GMT -7
Charles,
your work sounds more and more interesting for me!
Zooba,
wow... I am not sure it is a good idea to lie on the interview whatever motives. At least this would not be seen good here in the US. To tell a boss that you have no children may not be much better that telling that you have two and you are done with them.... this would be more truthful, because even if you would became pregnant - things happen!
Still, if you married and have no children it means that they are coming so you may take maternity leave soon, but if you do have them you will only take some sick days (something which is fading away in the US).
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Post by hollister on Sept 15, 2007 9:38:15 GMT -7
Jaga,
This is a listing of questions it is illegal in the US to ask (male or female) during a job interview.
Here are some of the many potentially illegal and sensitive questions you might encounter:
Are you able to work overtime, evenings and weekends?
How do you feel about attending conferences with (men) (women) ?
What child care arrangements have you made?
What type of position does your spouse have?
Do you think that you can supervise (men) (women), and how do you think they will react?
This job has always been handled by a (female) (male). Do you think you can handle it?
Are you willing to put career interests before self-interests?
What are your computer skills? Would you be interested in doing some word processing?
How do you feel about women's liberation?
By the way, would you mind telling me: "Just how old are you?"
How do you respond to authority?
How do you define sexual harassment?
Where were you born?
What's your nationality?
Are you married, divorced, separated, or single?
Are you living with anyone?
What holidays do you celebrate?
Do you have any disabilities that affect your work?
What is your health situation like?
Have you ever been arrested?
Are you on any medications?
Do you ever abuse alcohol or drugs?
How many children do you have?
What church do you attend?
How do you think my older employees would react if I hired you?
Do you have many debts?
Do you own or rent your home?
How much insurance do you have?
How much do you weigh?
Do you plan to have any more children?
What does your spouse think about your career?
Have you ever brought a law suit against an employer?
Have you ever filed for workers' comp?
Where do you usually go on vacation?
What do you think about romance in the office?
Have you ever been sexually harassed?
Do you have plans to get married?
Tell me about your family.
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zooba
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Post by zooba on Sept 15, 2007 12:40:56 GMT -7
Jaga, This is a listing of questions it is illegal in the US to ask (male or female) during a job interview. Here are some of the many potentially illegal and sensitive questions you might encounter: Are you able to work overtime, evenings and weekends? How do you feel about attending conferences with (men) (women) ? What child care arrangements have you made? What type of position does your spouse have? Do you think that you can supervise (men) (women), and how do you think they will react? This job has always been handled by a (female) (male). Do you think you can handle it? Are you willing to put career interests before self-interests? What are your computer skills? Would you be interested in doing some word processing? How do you feel about women's liberation? By the way, would you mind telling me: "Just how old are you?" How do you respond to authority? How do you define sexual harassment? Where were you born? What's your nationality? Are you married, divorced, separated, or single? Are you living with anyone? What holidays do you celebrate? Do you have any disabilities that affect your work? What is your health situation like? Have you ever been arrested? Are you on any medications? Do you ever abuse alcohol or drugs? How many children do you have? What church do you attend? How do you think my older employees would react if I hired you? Do you have many debts? Do you own or rent your home? How much insurance do you have? How much do you weigh? Do you plan to have any more children? What does your spouse think about your career? Have you ever brought a law suit against an employer? Have you ever filed for workers' comp? Where do you usually go on vacation? What do you think about romance in the office? Have you ever been sexually harassed? Do you have plans to get married? Tell me about your family. Holly, are All these questions illegal? |
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zooba
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Post by zooba on Sept 15, 2007 12:56:48 GMT -7
Jaga, I wouldn't lie about but I didn't have to mention it at all, since I wasn't asked. This information has nothing to do with my qualifications...the thing is it was difficult for me to talk about my work experience so far withour mentioning that I had to go part time when I had my children.... I'm honest during interwievs, I don't act along some book guidelines, I don't insert hot phrases in my resume, I believe in honesty and being natural, not pretending I'm more educated, intelligent (how can you fake it, anyway?) and so on. But my husband would never say - well in 1999, when my son was born, I had to reorganize my schedule and priorities.... I wish there were more men inmy workplace, women can be boring as well, Pieter  |
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Post by bescheid on Sept 15, 2007 13:11:56 GMT -7
Jaga, This is a listing of questions it is illegal in the US to ask (male or female) during a job interview. Here are some of the many potentially illegal and sensitive questions you might encounter: Are you able to work overtime, evenings and weekends? How do you feel about attending conferences with (men) (women) ? What child care arrangements have you made? What type of position does your spouse have? Do you think that you can supervise (men) (women), and how do you think they will react? This job has always been handled by a (female) (male). Do you think you can handle it? Are you willing to put career interests before self-interests? What are your computer skills? Would you be interested in doing some word processing? How do you feel about women's liberation? By the way, would you mind telling me: "Just how old are you?" How do you respond to authority? How do you define sexual harassment? Where were you born? What's your nationality? Are you married, divorced, separated, or single? Are you living with anyone? What holidays do you celebrate? Do you have any disabilities that affect your work? What is your health situation like? Have you ever been arrested? Are you on any medications? Do you ever abuse alcohol or drugs? How many children do you have? What church do you attend? How do you think my older employees would react if I hired you? Do you have many debts? Do you own or rent your home? How much insurance do you have? How much do you weigh? Do you plan to have any more children? What does your spouse think about your career? Have you ever brought a law suit against an employer? Have you ever filed for workers' comp? Where do you usually go on vacation? What do you think about romance in the office? Have you ever been sexually harassed? Do you have plans to get married? Tell me about your family. Holly This is interesting and not so difficult in understanding. Many of these do have some pitfalls if not properly handled, for this is understandable. Our laws are very extensive in as much to yours, if would appear. But, not so different in some respects. I was wondering: Many questions such as: Medical history would be answered after the hire date with a medical examination for reasons of insurance coverage. Age would be determined upon examination of past educational history. If licensing to operate a company vehicle is required, then this would be covered in the document. Credit checking, would in-self disclose debts and past financial history. A criminal check on what ever national data base that is available in your country would in self bring out any wants or recent arrest activity. {enter full namen, know Date of Birth, male/female and so on} I may be wrong, but I believe this is available by virtue of a fee paid for access by any commercial business into the police data base. Or with access through a fee paid bases to the local police agency. I believe this may be with your national police crime register of{NCIC} or {National Crime Investigation Centre}. In our case, laws for protection is very extensive. And in many cases as not covered under Federal Law, has the option to be covered by individual Lander laws for special situations that are not normal for remainder Lander. As for example: {Datenschutz und Recht} Federal Data Protection Act-20 Dez 1990 / 20 Dez 2001 -Purpose and Scope- Protect the individual against his {male or female as equal} right to privacy being impaired through handling of personal data. {Just this entry above, in self is very intensive} Charles |
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Post by Jaga on Sept 15, 2007 13:40:10 GMT -7
Holly,
this is interesting. But unfortunately the interviewer do take things like age etc under account. They may not ask about it but...
I know one very nice American guy, who just has a very difficult time to find a permanent job at any of the collegues because he is over 50. He teaches part-time in three different collegues! He had many interviews and he seems probably too old for people who interview him. He lost his previous (permanent) position in the WorldCom due to the corporate scandal and cannot find a stable job since.
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Post by pieter on Sept 15, 2007 15:44:59 GMT -7
I wish there were more men inmy workplace, women can be boring as well, Pieter Zooba, I think your opinion or observation is shared by Dutch women, colleages inworking in the same field as you as well. I worked for seven years at the Communication department of a healthcare group of several hospitals. Most employees there were women, and I heard my female colleages tell me that they liked the fact that there were a few men in their department, because claerly there were "only women" departments there too. I heared women complaining about only women workplaces, because there was a lot of competition between the women, and they can be tough on eachother. I prefer mixecd workplaces, because in only male places you can get a dumb macho, or male clan atmosphere, and with a vaste majority of women you can have a tense atmosphere. It suprised me when I read in a Dutch newspaper that most women who were stressed came from a 100% feminine workenvironment, so that confirmed my idea and the messages I got form girlfriends and female colleages. Pieter |
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But in the same time I have nothing against working with men, most often the technicians are male. Sometimes I like working with men better, because they can get to the point while women need more discussion or debate. 
