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Post by valpomike on Jan 12, 2008 16:00:37 GMT -7
To all,
Let us not ever forget this, what the Germans did to the children of Poland.
Michael Dabrowski
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Post by holaola on Jan 13, 2008 6:59:19 GMT -7
Pawian wrote: [quote author=pawian board=history thread=1172954519 post=1200170082.[/quote]
However, I still claim that 2.5 million perished children as given by you is too high a number.[/quote]
I got those figures out of the book I mentioned and I imagine documentation for such a figure will be in the archives in Warsaw.
As far as all available information about all issues regarding the war being already on the web, this is unfortunately not the case.
Even organisations like the Sikorski Institute in London have not got all their archives on the web as yet. As far as I know that Institute hasn't even started the process of making its huge archives available in this way - and doesn't intend to do so in the near future.
I'd also be very wary of quoting any information on the sole basis of its being available on the web. As we have all seen, anybody can write anything on the web, and if it is repeated sufficient times it might look like credible information even if it isn't. This includes all information on Wikipedia - the most famous story there being of some contributor who had given a biography of a philosopher, plus estimated year of death, only to discover some time later that his "dead" philosopher was not only still consuming nourishment and oxygen with undiminished gusto, but was also philosophising quite energetically too!
However on one point I do stand corrected : the figure quoted in the book is "...Polska stracila (Poland lost) co najmiej (at least) 2,225,000 dzieci (children)." This figure includes infants who died, and also those who were forcibly taken away. No mention of is made of women who were forcibly made to abort - because that happened too, and I know that from a German source the details of which I will try to find later.
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Pawian
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Post by Pawian on Jan 13, 2008 9:55:50 GMT -7
I got those figures out of the book I mentioned and I imagine documentation for such a figure will be in the archives in Warsaw. Look, there are different writers. Some write buulshit and they think people will take it. That`s why I was so prudent about those convoys. But I saw pictures of monuments so it had to be true. The number of taken away children is estimated at 200.000. So, having this number, the correction is still too low. How can it be 2.250.000 children if: Poland lost 6 million people during the war. 3 million were Polish Jews. So, we talk about 3 million Poles now. About 600.000 of them died in combat (soldiers). What is left is about 2.5 million victims of terror, executions, diseases etc etc. Of course it is impossible they were all children, even if we count infants, abortions, etc etc.
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Post by valpomike on Jan 13, 2008 10:07:08 GMT -7
To all,
If it was just 500 children, that would be to many. Let us never forget what the Germans did to the Polish.
Michael Dabrowski
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Post by holaola on Jan 13, 2008 11:01:06 GMT -7
Pawian: Here is where you can check: Archiwum Glownej Komisji Badania Zbrodni Hitlerowskich w Polsce, dokument NO-031/PS. Podaje R. Z. Hrabar: Na rozkaz i bez rozkazu, jw., s. 90-92 That's where the author got her info. from. Anyway, I see you're actually in Poland so you're in an excellent position to go and check and tell us all about it, don't you think?
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Pawian
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Post by Pawian on Jan 13, 2008 11:54:43 GMT -7
Pawian: Here is where you can check: Archiwum Glownej Komisji Badania Zbrodni Hitlerowskich w Polsce, dokument NO-031/PS. Podaje R. Z. Hrabar: Na rozkaz i bez rozkazu, jw., s. 90-92 That's where the author got her info. from. Anyway, I see you're actually in Poland so you're in an excellent position to go and check and tell us all about it, don't you think? OK, OK, I believe you. Do I still have to go and check? PS. How do you know I live in Poland?
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Post by Pawian on Jan 13, 2008 11:58:00 GMT -7
To all, Let us not ever forget this, what the Germans did to the children of Poland. Michael Dabrowski Mike, do you want us to have nighmares for ever? I think you don`t fully realise what you are proposing. We have to forget otherwise we will all go mad.
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Post by kaima on Jan 13, 2008 12:10:32 GMT -7
To all, Let us not ever forget this, what the Germans did to the children of Poland. Michael Dabrowski Mike, do you want us to have nighmares for ever? I think you don`t fully realise what you are proposing. We have to forget otherwise we will all go mad. Pawi, Your suggestion to forget seems in direct opposition to your attitude of remembering every detail of Polish-Jewish problems, and beating the Poles to death over the topic. Do you see inconsistency in your attitude? Kai
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Post by Pawian on Jan 13, 2008 12:59:22 GMT -7
Pawi, Your suggestion to forget seems in direct opposition to your attitude of remembering every detail of Polish-Jewish problems, and beating the Poles to death over the topic. Do you see inconsistency in your attitude? Kai No, I don`t see any inconsistency in my attitude... But I can see that you couldn`t resist and you came back to me with your expertise posts. hahahahahahaha So you are intent on getting on with our exchange in which you will traditionally play a role of a learned man and a gentleman? As you wish..... hahahahahahahaha BTW, I can forgive and forget German crimes on Poles as a Pole. But, in case of Polish crimes on Jews, who am I to forgive and forget??? Let those who were abused decide about forgiveness. Besides, German crimes had been fully known to the world long before I was born. Germans already did their penance, many times. Polish crimes haven`t been known until recently. Poles haven`t done their examination of conscience yet. Too many can`t accept the historical facts. The hysterical discussion on German Polish topics can be closed. The one on Polish Jewish topics can`t. I would like you to think twice before you write to me. It will save me time answering all these profound writings .... hahahahahaha
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Post by valpomike on Jan 13, 2008 13:19:29 GMT -7
Like you have better things to do !!!!!
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Post by kaima on Jan 13, 2008 13:29:44 GMT -7
Pawi,
Your language is perfectly unacceptable. Clean it up or stop writing it. You suggested before that I use my powers as moderator, and you demonstrated why they should be used.
Now clean up your act. Your excesses will not be tolerated.
Kai
Afterword: Language has been cleaned up. Truce has been declared.
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Post by Pawian on Jan 13, 2008 13:43:45 GMT -7
Pawi, Your language is perfectly unacceptable. Clean it up or stop writing it. You suggested before that I use my powers as moderator, and you demonstrated why they should be used. Now clean up your act. Your excesses will not be tolerated. Kai hahahahahahahahahaha PS. After a while, I modifed this post, adding, No, genius! hahahahahahahahahahaha In case you wanted to delete it, I have just saved it for future use.
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Pawian
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Post by Pawian on Jan 13, 2008 13:58:25 GMT -7
Kai, stop wandering around and modifying my post! It is unfair! hahahahah You are taking advantage of the time superiority (7 hours). You know that I can`t stay here all night long (in Poland) while you still have day in the US! I can be here for the next 2 hours only. It is unfair! hahahahahaha Besides, can`t you really think of sth more as intelligent?
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Pawian
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Post by Pawian on Jan 13, 2008 14:13:24 GMT -7
Dear members,
If you read my exchange with the guy called Kai, you probably got disheartened and think of leaving such a nasty place where people resort to abuses.
Forgive me this but I had to use such strong language to make the guy realise what might happen in the future if he continues writing to me.
The matter should be resolved now and forever. I promised Kai never to write to him and asked him to act similary in reference to me.
Now, the ball is in Kai`s court. What will he choose: his hurt admin`s ambitions and continuous war, or cease-fire and cold but peaceful coexistence?
What a tension......
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Post by holaola on Jan 13, 2008 15:47:08 GMT -7
Pawian!
First of all about my knowing that you are in Poland: you said Poe-land, I read Poland – and then I checked your email address which you have very kindly provided in your profile – it finishes with .pl, hence Poland.
Secondly, you said that the whole world knows about German war crimes. Yes it does – but only about German crimes against the Jewish community, and virtually nothing about German crimes against the Poles.
Thirdly, and to prove my point number 2 all the better, you yourself were dubious about German crimes against Polish (non-Jewish) children. So if you, a Pole (I’m now looking at the rest of your email address), didn’t know about the children how do you expect the rest of the world to know? In fact the rest of the world doesn’t know anything about these matters for as soon as any German crimes against the Poles are mentioned (and I’ve lived all my life in the West, so I know how these things go) the West takes it for granted that these crimes were against Polish Jews, exclusively.
Fourthly, it is true that knowledge of Polish crimes against the Jewish population is coming out and it has been coming out for the past 20-30 years in the West. It is also true that the Jewish community is starting to admit to Jewish crimes against the Polish population – also something the world never found out about, and knows hardly anything to this day. If the Poles mentioned this anywhere they were automatically labelled anti-Semites and no further discussion was tolerated. This is changing - and very slowly - only now.
So, as you can see, there is still a great deal to learn for everyone and this chapter is most certainly nowhere near being closed. Before there can be full forgiveness – on any part – there must be full knowledge of what exactly everyone is meant to forgive. Without full knowledge these things will still be haunting us and creating ill feeling in two hundred years time.
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