Pawian
European
Have you seen my frog?
Posts: 3,266
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Post by Pawian on Mar 3, 2007 13:41:59 GMT -7
Why not start a thread about controvercial issues in Polish history and present.....
Controversy 1
""52,2 proc. Polaków uważa dawne Kresy Wschodnie z Wilnem i Lwowem za nadal polskie ziemie – wynika z badań Pentora przeprowadzonych na zlecenie "Wprost". 57,9 proc. żałuje, że Wilno i Lwów nie należą już do Polski - informuje serwis wprost.pl. Bardzo podobne badania kilka tygodni temu przeprowadził w Niemczech instytut TNS na zlecenie tygodnika "Der Spiegel". Okazało się, że 24 proc. Niemców uważa Śląsk i Prusy Wschodnie (Warmię i Mazury) nadal za ziemie niemieckie. 40 proc. Niemców żałuje, że te tereny należą obecnie do Polski i Rosji."""
I think it is a scandal.
57.9% Poles regret that Eastern lands with Vilnius and Lvov, now belonging to Lithuania and Ukraine, are not Polish anymore. 52.2% believes those lands can still be treated as Polish. The survey was made by influential Wprost magazine.
This is a really surprising survey. I thought Poles have dropped those stupid sentiments long ago. I never heard any of my acqaintances mention those lands. I remember in my youth under communist regime how we used to sing silly impudent songs: Jedna bombka atomowa i wrócimy znów do Lwowa. (One atomic bomb and we will return to Lvov). But that was young boys fooling around. I was sure nobody treated it too seriously.
It seems I was mistaken or there was some mistake in the survey.
If not, it means we have a longer way to go than Germans, 40% of whom regret their old lands are now Polish, and 24% consider these lands to be still German.
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Post by jimpres on Mar 3, 2007 13:55:36 GMT -7
Pawian,
Like I have said many times it is always about dirt. Someone wants someone else's land. Will Russia give back the land gained at Yalta? I think not. And the Poles will not give back the West of Poland and Gdansk and Gdynia etc.
Jim
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zooba
Full Pole
Posts: 369
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Post by zooba on Mar 5, 2007 5:53:40 GMT -7
Pawian, what was the age group who took part in the survey and from what parts of Poland they were? I guess that could influence the results very much.
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Pawian
European
Have you seen my frog?
Posts: 3,266
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Post by Pawian on Mar 11, 2007 5:19:46 GMT -7
Pawian, what was the age group who took part in the survey and from what parts of Poland they were? I guess that could influence the results very much. Unfortunately, I have no idea about participants in the survey. But this map shows the lands which can be considered originally Polish. Everything what Poles acquired in the East after 10th century was taken at the advantage of Rus people, today Ukrainians. Today Poland looks more or less like those old lands. And Poles shouldn`t complain.
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scatts
Cosmopolitan
Posts: 812
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Post by scatts on Mar 24, 2007 1:51:36 GMT -7
Looking simply at the boundaries of the country, not the human suffering & destruction, I think Poland came out of the wars very well. Striving to gain more territory now would bring you down to the level of Stalin and Hitler.
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Post by kaima on Mar 24, 2007 11:29:20 GMT -7
Expanding the borders? You currently have a country, if I remember correctly, more than "95% Polish". Expand the borders and you will vastly dilute that by a great deal in addition to upsetting the neighboring lands, the EU, and setting the stage for the surrounding countries to re-conquer the 'land that historically belongs to them".
That sounds like one of the dumbest ideas for a people to support since invading Iraq came along. If you need a 'decider' to lead you in this adventure, I have a person I will nominate ...
Kai
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Post by leslie on Mar 24, 2007 11:37:22 GMT -7
Kai Does the person's name rhyme with 'hush'?
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Post by rdywenur on Mar 24, 2007 13:26:10 GMT -7
more like "push"
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Pawian
European
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Post by Pawian on Mar 24, 2007 13:58:26 GMT -7
Expanding the borders? You currently have a country, if I remember correctly, more than "95% Polish". Expand the borders and you will vastly dilute that by a great deal in addition to upsetting the neighboring lands, the EU, Of course, nobody thinks of any reconquest. The lands that Poles once treated as theirs belong to other states legally and already historically and only some new war could change it. It is highly impossible. The survey showed something else. That Poles still feel nostalgic for those Eastern lands. Too nostalgic, according to the survey. Polish nostalgia must be very unnerving to Ukrainians or Lithuanians, just like German nostalgia for once German lands belonging to Poland now annoys Poles so much. The lands will never be Polish again. In fact, they were never Polish to the end. Poles didn`t contribute into their development in the same extent as Germans contributed into the development of Western Poland. To be honest, Poles did nothing valuable there. Their only "contribution" was the preservation of anachronic rule of local lords over peasants and it was the tsar who eventually had to free the latter. Even the city of Lvov flourished because of its active Armenian residents. The sooner Poles forget the lands, the better.
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Pawian
European
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Post by Pawian on Mar 24, 2007 14:06:47 GMT -7
Looking simply at the boundaries of the country, not the human suffering & destruction, I think Poland came out of the wars very well. Yes, the effect is quite satisfactory, especially if we recall Poland`s nonexistence. But, as you mention, the today`s "order in Varsovie" was achieved at the cost of millions of victims and incredible suffering of all nations populating this area. Europeans are really warlike people.
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Pawian
European
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Post by Pawian on Mar 29, 2007 11:05:00 GMT -7
Controversy 2 Can you enlighten me, are there many nations in the world who send children to battles and when they die, honour them? Poland has a dubious tradition of children warriors. It started in 1920s when Poles and Ukrainians fought for Lvov, trying to make it an ethnically clean Polish or Ukrainian city. The so called Orlęta Lwowskie, Lvov Eaglets, were children, students of secondary schools. They created self-defence militia and successfully defended their city. Many were buried in the famous Lychakowski Cemetary. When I was in high school, we used to sing patriotic songs, banned by communists, about them: "O mamo otrzyj oczy, z uśmiechem do mnie mów Ta krew co z piersi broczy, to za nasz polski Lwów Ja biłem się tak samo jak starsi - mamo chwal I tylko mi Ciebie mamo i tylko mi Polski żal..." ""Oh mother, open your eyes, look at me with a smile, This blood flowing from my chest is for our Polish Lvov. I was fighting like adults, mother, praise me for this, I regret nothing but you and Poland"" Or what about children fighters in Warsaw Uprising? 12 year old Tadek was killed in action There are monuments in Warsaw. One presents a baby insurgent whose combat helmet as as big as himself. My goodness...... Did those children have to fight and die? Wasn`t there enough adult male fighters in Poland?
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Pawian
European
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Post by Pawian on Mar 29, 2007 11:19:23 GMT -7
The tradition od children warriors is honoured even today.
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Post by bescheid on Mar 29, 2007 11:55:12 GMT -7
Oh Dear Pawain
These are children! Why for they are in combat? For they should be only in school!
It is murderess to send children into war as combatants. For I am sorry my friend, but, our children need to be home and near their mothers arms, that is where they need to be....
Charles
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Post by hollister on Mar 29, 2007 12:35:34 GMT -7
The pictures remind me of the photos of children in Africa that are being forced to carry arms today in Africa. Any one seen Blood Diamond? So while these are depictions of the past here - what are we doing so today's children are not pressed into service? Africa is still the dark continet in many, many ways - if they only had oil.....
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Pawian
European
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Post by Pawian on Mar 29, 2007 14:37:11 GMT -7
The pictures remind me of the photos of children in Africa that are being forced to carry arms today in Africa. Any one seen Blood Diamond? So while these are depictions of the past here - what are we doing so today's children are not pressed into service? Africa is still the dark continet in many, many ways - if they only had oil..... The problem with Polish children combatants is different. They weren`t pressed into the service. You can see smiling faces in those pictures. Those boys and sometimes girls were happy to fight for their country. The problem is that nobody told them to drop the gun and go home, to parents. They were accepted by adults as fighters equal to adults. In Warsaw Uprising 12 year old boys became non-comissioned officers. Is it simply stupidity or a crime to close an eye to children fighting?
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