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Post by valpomike on Dec 10, 2007 18:09:26 GMT -7
To all,
I am for real, and have a heart. Whenever I visit my older Uncle in Warsaw, he still has a great dislike for the Germans, and will tell all why, when asked. He is 89 years young, a retired doctor, with a sharpe mind. Many others who I talk with, are still unhappy with all Germans, saying that they still think they are better than the rest of us. This is what they say. Not me. I have many friends and family in Poland, that I keep in contact with weekly, and some ever day. I don't understand the strong dislike for the German people, but I did not live in Poland during the war, or even now. I did not see what some German people did to the Polish people. I myself, have mixed ideas as to the German's since I can not get any answers from most of them. They like Charles tell me to go read the history books, but you can't get a real feedback from them. I want to know true feelings. I don't want to upset anyone, with my questions, but I know others out there would like to know, also, but were not going to ask. If this is no good for you, just pass on it.
Michael Dabrowski
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Post by rdywenur on Dec 10, 2007 23:54:08 GMT -7
Yes and I always wished to be "active" .............Chris the naughty one. ;D ;D ;D
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Post by kaima on Dec 11, 2007 1:59:18 GMT -7
To all, I am for real, and have a heart. Whenever I visit my older Uncle in Warsaw, he still has a great dislike for the Germans, and will tell all why, when asked. He is 89 years young, a retired doctor, with a sharpe mind. Many others who I talk with, are still unhappy with all Germans, saying that they still think they are better than the rest of us. This is what they say. Not me. I have many friends and family in Poland, that I keep in contact with weekly, and some ever day. I don't understand the strong dislike for the German people, but I did not live in Poland during the war, or even now. I did not see what some German people did to the Polish people. I myself, have mixed ideas as to the German's since I can not get any answers from most of them. They like Charles tell me to go read the history books, but you can't get a real feedback from them. I want to know true feelings. I don't want to upset anyone, with my questions, but I know others out there would like to know, also, but were not going to ask. If this is no good for you, just pass on it. Michael Dabrowski Do you prefer Mike or Michael? I have both in the family and Michal. I am also willing to adapt your preference in addressing you. Mike jsut comes to me naturally. Well, I have more contact with Germans than Poles, Czechs or Slovaks. Lived and worked there for 9 years. I have stated it before and don't care to repeat too often, but yours is quite a legitimate question and I am wondering what others will say as well. The Germans have their prejudices. Their voice tone changes whent they talk about Poles in particular, and they have sayings occasionally like 'don't trust teh people from the east' - then I reminded them that Germany lies east of the US. I have been mistaken for German in teh east and on occasion it was not comfortable. Enough so I go into a shop and will first speak English, then German. If both fail then I fall into whatever I can command of the local language. That identifies me as Not-German and leads to a better relationship. My aunt was beat with rifle butts and left with the frame of her house and hungry children by the Germans, but she seems to hold no prejudice against them. Perhaps the cause was one or two uncles who fought with the resistance. She is about 85 now and still has aches form some of it - well, with advanced age it gets more difficult to separate the causes and she does not complain. Germans are like Texans - great people within their own borders. Outside their borders .. well, history tells. Yes, the Germans have a trouble with ego. They did learn a hard lesson and they are far more pacifistic and tolerant / accepting than we are in the US today. As my father said, let the old hatreds and animosities die with me. There is no reason to pass them on. That is also part of my belief that guilt is not inherited. Neither we for Indian troubles nor Germans for Slavic or Jewish troubles. The easure is what we do today. The rest is history. Kai
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Post by livia on Dec 11, 2007 8:06:31 GMT -7
Hi Michael, I was very hesitant but here are my three cents. First of all I don't think anything is wrong with your history books. Perhaps the question was direct and might have hurt Charles. It is always bad to hurt. Charles is not 'Germans', not even one German first of all. He is one human first of all. Anyway, I hope the past is not a taboo in US already. If it is I better learn now before I arrive for my postdoc... I was also curious how Charles feels about the past, what he knows about the past. But now I will not ask any questions. The Germans my age I talked to have a very limited idea what Germany has done to the Poles. The war in their mind is the Holocaust and the German defeat. Most I talked to felt trully ashamed when I told them. Ashamed of own igonarance so to say. I have a good friend who is German. The friendship started with an open conversation about the war during students exchange. Some time later she emailed me. She said she read about WWII since we've talked and she is 'breathless, sorry, ashamed and angered at her compatriots'. The history course at school didn't cover the whole issue. She dug in family history to learn that both her grandfathers were members of a Nazi party and one served in Poland as an officer. You think many Poles dislike Germans. Yes, a great deal of people, older people, are suspicious, not actually dislike ALL Germans. Can anyone blame them? I personally dislike the attitude of some Germans too. I stress some. BUt not because of the past. Because they are loud, arrogant and joke about physiology to much etc. And some don't like Poles 'just because'. See Kai's post. Am i prejudiced?
But look at the present day. The granddaughter of two, well, Nazists, is a close friend of the AK-members grandgranddaughter. And we are very alike, and I dont mean physically. You know what I mean? Cheer up, Michael!
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Post by livia on Dec 11, 2007 8:22:00 GMT -7
We have two active ladies with the first name Chris. One has a nick "Rdywenur" and another one is called Holly from "hollister". This is a real board really, we sometimes joke, but we do not try to make it unreal and surrealistic [/quote] I indeed lost the track somewhere between The Hollister Chris and The Rdywnur Chris. Thank you Jaga ;D
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Post by valpomike on Dec 11, 2007 9:08:09 GMT -7
To all,
Thank you all for your input. I now understand better, and see many think as I do. I hope I did not upset anyone, but did, and do want to know.
Michael Dabrowski
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Post by bescheid on Dec 11, 2007 9:22:30 GMT -7
Dear Lvia and Kai
Thank you for my self and that of Michael for your intervention. For you are both a very dear and precious people.
Now though, I must attempt to answer that of what I have to offer for Michael.
In as much to the many individuals of my country. Many are not so knowledgeable of the war and as such, have not so much to describe.
We are a restless people, we are builders and manufactures. We do not as a generality, celebrate defeats, but we do celebrate victories, for this is as it should be.
With our defeats, we must reorganize, step over our losses, and go forward. It is not so different from the war. We lost, little is of gain to look back.
Yes, I do know some details perhaps not as knowledgeable as some. I was very young in the last years, much was only revealed to me in bits. The reason of my living out of my country toward end of war, was for my family. I was to be a living remainder of our family as an only child. And yes, some of our family was SS in the Panzer, and yes, they died in Russia.
Our family is/was a very old industrial family, and as so, very strong ties with what ever government was in power reigning from the days of pre-Bismarck, the Reich goverment was little different, just another in-as-much-as to previous.
Our family factory was in Bremen as a marine machining werk. After the bombing, it was rebuilt for war time manufacturing of auto-motive vehicle chasis {some of our patent rights were forfeited to the French firmen of {Citroen}.
Of the, famlie, it is my mother and my self.
Thank you for your kindness and tolerance. Now I must address Mr. Michael.
Charles
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Post by bescheid on Dec 11, 2007 9:25:15 GMT -7
To all, Thank you all for your input. I now understand better, and see many think as I do. I hope I did not upset anyone, but did, and do want to know. Michael Dabrowski Dear Michael How may I be of service? Noten: I will be away for time period for 2hours-must return to my work- Charles
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Post by valpomike on Dec 11, 2007 10:48:16 GMT -7
Charles,
What do you feel for the people of Poland, killed by your people, without good reason, just greed? How could your people kill, the mass, without reason. Like killing them in gas chambers, or fireing squads, kill many at a time? Did you know any of the Polish that were killed? If yes, how do you feel on this? How do the most of the German feel on this, the killing of many, Polish people without cause, just war and greed. I have heard that in Japan, some of this went on also, but not in the large numbers. I don't hold this againts you, I just would like your feedback. We are around the same age, and I know how I feel, and wonder how you do. This did go on, we can't just hide it, saying, it is history. I just hope, the U.S.A. will never do anything like this. Again, I don't want to upset you, or anyone, I just have questions.
Michael Dabrowski
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Post by bescheid on Dec 11, 2007 13:08:23 GMT -7
Charles, What do you feel for the people of Poland, killed by your people, without good reason, just greed? How could your people kill, the mass, without reason. Like killing them in gas chambers, or firing squads, kill many at a time? Did you know any of the Polish that were killed? If yes, how do you feel on this? How do the most of the German feel on this, the killing of many, Polish people without cause, just war and greed. I have heard that in Japan, some of this went on also, but not in the large numbers. I don't hold this againts you, I just would like your feedback. We are around the same age, and I know how I feel, and wonder how you do. This did go on, we can't just hide it, saying, it is history. I just hope, the U.S.A. will never do anything like this. Again, I don't want to upset you, or anyone, I just have questions. Michael Dabrowski Hello Michael I see you have a list of questions to me. I will answer all I may, for I know not every thing. It is my answers perhaps you may not wish to enjoy. 1} How do I feel of the people killed by my people: My answer: I do not feel any thing. I was a child then. These people were our enemies and as so, were treated as such. 2} Do I know the Poles killed? My answer: No, I do not nor ever knew the Poles killed. 3} How could my people kill in gas chambers and firing squads? My people used the most efficient manner of destruction available as technology allowed. You Americans developed a much more efficient manner of mass killing, more efficient/cost efficient/very non-involved in a better of killing of enemies. The technology used by you Americans very far advanced of that of my country, the use of Nuclear weapon bombs against the Japanese. The cost effective method used by your nation was light years in-front of my country in efficiency/economic use of available resources/numbers of people {non-combatant}murdered in un-accountable mass murdered. So you see Michael, you are a citizen of a country that has murdered more civilian non-combatants then my country had vision to conceive of. Add this to the number of wars your nation has in past and present been active within the previous 40 years. Within this in actual, how many innocents were murdered by your military in Vietnam/Korea/Kosovo? One of the most efficient aerial weapons used by your country in Vietnam was use of fire {napalm} how many villages of supposed enemies solders were killed in number of Innocent civilians burnt alive by your country? You see Michael, your sins are no less or of great then that of mine. Charles
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Post by valpomike on Dec 11, 2007 13:37:01 GMT -7
Charles, 1. Why were they your enemies? They did nothing to you or your people. I speak of the Polish people. 3. But this was a heartless way to do it. No others were doing this, at that time. Bombs were used after nothing was left, and this was used to stop more action on both parts. I am not happy with some of the actions taken by others, and am upset with many of them, but you said you are not. I pray each day for those who lost lifes due to war, but this does not help anyone. I think to this day, many still alive, are the blame for the killing of very many Polish people for just greed on the part of the Germans. Why should the Polish forget when they lost so much, and so many, without any cause on there part. Some are here still fighting the Civil War, and some are just with this. You can't just let time heal all, it does not. More so when the people with the blame will not take that blame. I, myself take some of the blame for the poor actions the U.S.A. may have taken in any way, and still feel sorry for those who suffered from this.
Michael Dabrowski
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Pawian
European
Have you seen my frog?
Posts: 3,266
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Post by Pawian on Dec 11, 2007 13:39:17 GMT -7
The moment has come that I must intervene with a few reminding remarks These people were our enemies and as so, were treated as such. Those people didn`t choose to be Germans` enemies. It was German Übermenschen who arbitrarily decided that whole nations or races were their enemies: Jews, Slavs, Gypsies. The manner in which you are talking about Holocaust and other massacres is terrifying. Yes, but let me remind you that the USA was trecherously attacked by the Japanese and in result Americans had the full right to answer with all their might to defeat the suicidally resistant enemy. And don`t forget that while the atomic bomb destroyed two Japanese cities, millions of the Chinese, Koreans and also allied POWs had already been dead or perishing in Japanese death camps. Now it seems you are trying to liken Nazi Germany to the USA. This is really ridiculous, I must be frank with you. Who attacked Germany so that WW2 started and Germans had to destroy their enemies? Was it Poland by any chance? Of course it is a gross lie. Charles, I am afraid you must go back to history books, preferrably written by non-German authors. Or simply check the war statistics. Charles, again a miss. Conducting military operations which result in destroying civilians is disgraceful but it is still different than the deliberate, wide-scale, prolonged gassing operation applied to eradicate the Jewish race from the surface of the earth. Vergast!Don`t try to equalise Americans with Nazi Germans who were gladly helped by millions of non-Nazi ones. You are not only incorrect but also unfair and again you sort of stand on the side of Nazis. Was Hollister wrong about you when she said you are one of the noblest men in the forum? Are or were? Now read carefully - I have never accused either you or any German born after the war of being a Nazi murderer or their helper or supporter. I have never held any modern German responsible for their fathers` sins. However, I don`t like when somebody is trying to rewrite history. And that`s what some Germans have been trying to do, including you in your last post.
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Mary
Cosmopolitan
Posts: 934
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Post by Mary on Dec 11, 2007 13:52:42 GMT -7
Charles,
I appreciate your honest answers to Michaels questions even though I don't agree with them.
My grandmothers 12 year old brother was locked in a cattle car with many other Poles and left on the train tracks to freeze to death. How could this child be a threat or enemy to the German people or any others? They were simple farmers and did not invite or intice the Germans to invade their country.
Mary
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Post by valpomike on Dec 11, 2007 14:21:37 GMT -7
To all,
Thank you, I now know I am not the only one who thinks this way. Germans are not like the Polish at all. You, many of you, know what I mean. This is still the same now, as it was, many years ago. Please, those who have not made your input, please do so. I would like to see what more of you think on this.
Michael Dabrowski
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Post by bescheid on Dec 11, 2007 14:47:46 GMT -7
Mary
I am very sorry for your family, very truly so. I was a child in those times. If it was in my power, non-of this would have occured.
But it has occured. The nazi bastards gave cause for destruction of my country.
In as much to my answers to the questions of Michael, was factual answer to precise question.
Thank you for your post reply
Charles
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