Post by jimpres on Mar 19, 2007 9:23:01 GMT -7
Another article of Genealogical interest.
This has been a discussion item on a Genealogical list.
Author Fred Hoffman.
I looked in Aleksander Brueckner's _Slownik
etymologiczny jezyka polskiego_ [Etymological
Dictionary of the Polish Language], originally
published in Krakow in 1927. He says: "tem
uszczypliwem przezwiskiem o 'nierozumialym,' a
wiec niby niemym czlowieku uraczyl Slowianin
pierwszych Niemcow, ktorych napotkal, Bastarnow
przed Chr., albo Gotow po Chr., in nazwe te
orzszerzyl na wszystkich blish im mowa czy zbroja;
nazwa wiec taka sama, jak Slowianie (p.)."
[My best translation: The Slav called the first
Germans he met, the Bastarnae before Christ and
the Goths after Christ, by this acerbic nickname
meaning "incomprehensible" and therefore "a mute
fellow," and extended this name to all near him in
terms of speech or armor; so the name is like that
of the Slavs (q. v.).]
That's the entry in the main part of the book. In
additional comments at the end he noted that a
Czech historian had wondered why anyone would call
people "mute" who obviously spoke loud and clear?
But Brueckner points out that originally _niemy_
could also mean "speaking incomprehensibly,
jabbering," and that's probably the sense in which
this name originated.
I don't have an etymological dictionary that deals
with Russian or Slavic languages in general, so I
can't say how early this term came into use among
the Slavs. But if Brueckner felt Slavs first
applied the term to the Bastarnae, that strongly
suggests Slavs were calling Germanic peoples by
this before the Slavs began to separate into
Poles, Russians, etc. The word for "German" is
essentially the same in Czech, _Nemec_ with hacek
over the first E; in Ukrainian it's _nimets'_,
with characteristic Ukrainian use of I where other
Slavs prefer E/O. In Serbian it's _Nemac_ or
_Njemac_. So it most Slavs use much the same word
to refer to an individual German; and that
suggests use of the word by may date back to the
Proto-Slavic tongue (before the 7th century A.D.)
I would add that linguists have traditionally
understood the Greek term _barbaros_ to much
something similar. To the ancient Greeks the
speech of the barbarians sounded like they were
saying "Bar, bar, bar," which was just jabber
devoid of meaning. So the Slavs, like the ancient
Greeks, used a word for these neighboring
"barbarians" that simply meant "one who can't
speak correctly."
I've always thought it was interesting that the
German word for "German," _deutsch_, comes from an
old Germanic root meaning "the people." In other
words, the ancient Germanic tribes saw themselves
as the "real human beings,"
as opposed to those subhuman barbarians who spoke
other languages and had other customs. I guess it
all depends on your perspective!
I hope that sheds some light on the question.
Jim
This has been a discussion item on a Genealogical list.
Author Fred Hoffman.
I looked in Aleksander Brueckner's _Slownik
etymologiczny jezyka polskiego_ [Etymological
Dictionary of the Polish Language], originally
published in Krakow in 1927. He says: "tem
uszczypliwem przezwiskiem o 'nierozumialym,' a
wiec niby niemym czlowieku uraczyl Slowianin
pierwszych Niemcow, ktorych napotkal, Bastarnow
przed Chr., albo Gotow po Chr., in nazwe te
orzszerzyl na wszystkich blish im mowa czy zbroja;
nazwa wiec taka sama, jak Slowianie (p.)."
[My best translation: The Slav called the first
Germans he met, the Bastarnae before Christ and
the Goths after Christ, by this acerbic nickname
meaning "incomprehensible" and therefore "a mute
fellow," and extended this name to all near him in
terms of speech or armor; so the name is like that
of the Slavs (q. v.).]
That's the entry in the main part of the book. In
additional comments at the end he noted that a
Czech historian had wondered why anyone would call
people "mute" who obviously spoke loud and clear?
But Brueckner points out that originally _niemy_
could also mean "speaking incomprehensibly,
jabbering," and that's probably the sense in which
this name originated.
I don't have an etymological dictionary that deals
with Russian or Slavic languages in general, so I
can't say how early this term came into use among
the Slavs. But if Brueckner felt Slavs first
applied the term to the Bastarnae, that strongly
suggests Slavs were calling Germanic peoples by
this before the Slavs began to separate into
Poles, Russians, etc. The word for "German" is
essentially the same in Czech, _Nemec_ with hacek
over the first E; in Ukrainian it's _nimets'_,
with characteristic Ukrainian use of I where other
Slavs prefer E/O. In Serbian it's _Nemac_ or
_Njemac_. So it most Slavs use much the same word
to refer to an individual German; and that
suggests use of the word by may date back to the
Proto-Slavic tongue (before the 7th century A.D.)
I would add that linguists have traditionally
understood the Greek term _barbaros_ to much
something similar. To the ancient Greeks the
speech of the barbarians sounded like they were
saying "Bar, bar, bar," which was just jabber
devoid of meaning. So the Slavs, like the ancient
Greeks, used a word for these neighboring
"barbarians" that simply meant "one who can't
speak correctly."
I've always thought it was interesting that the
German word for "German," _deutsch_, comes from an
old Germanic root meaning "the people." In other
words, the ancient Germanic tribes saw themselves
as the "real human beings,"
as opposed to those subhuman barbarians who spoke
other languages and had other customs. I guess it
all depends on your perspective!
I hope that sheds some light on the question.
Jim