Pawian
European
Have you seen my frog?
Posts: 3,266
|
Post by Pawian on Nov 19, 2005 15:31:15 GMT -7
I have nothing against Polish troops staying in Iraq longer than the planned withdrawal in February next year.
First of all, I believe coalition forces do secure this little stability in Iraq. Without them a fierce all-out civil war will break out in the country. The civilians, who immensely suffer today from terrorist attacks, will suffer much more in case of total chaos caused by a civil war. It might be one massive massacre. It doesn`t matter now whether the invasion of Iraq was lawful or not, justified or not. What matters now is ( according to Polish proverb: "when you say A, you must say B") is to help Iraqis develop their new post-Sadaam political system, build and train their new army and police, rebuild their economy and after a few years let them live their own life.
Secondly, Polish losses haven`t been alarming so far. We lost 17 soldiers, most of them in accidents and crashes, only 3 or 4 were killed in attacks. Compared with American losses, it is very low. I don`t know why it is so, maybe Poles are deployed in a relatively peaceful zone, or fanatic terrorists decided not to attack them. The number of soldiers probably plays a role too - Poland has been sending to Iraq about 1500 soldiers every six months or so, compared to more than 100 K American ones.
Moreover, the Polish army has a great opportunity to check its value in conditions close to real combat. Soldiers who chicken out in Iraq should leave the army. There was a case of a few soldiers who virtually shitted in their pants when the Polish base was attacked. They suffered a terrible shock, demanded to be sent home, released from duty etc. I hope they left the army. In this way Polish army will have better, determined, professional soldiers who know what they should do and how to do it. Young people, who try to join the army today because they treat it as mere fun, will think twice before doing it.
Last but not least, today I read that the new Polish government is going to push Iraqi authorities, backed by Americans, to increase the cooperation with Polish companies in Iraq`s oil industry. Why not?
Now give me your arguments. I am all ears.
Yours
Pawian
|
|
|
Post by jimpres on Nov 19, 2005 15:38:00 GMT -7
Pawian,
Your right it is a good training ground for GROM. And the coalition must stay until the Iraqi military can take over. If we leave before that there will be a civil war.
And Poland getting some monitary rewards is good for the county and labor market. There is good news in Iraq, which you do not see in the liberal media. The coalition is building power plants, schools, hospitals, factories, piplines etc. But this information is not spectacular and won't sell newpapers and TV time so you never hear of the good things happening in Iraq. And what about their constitution and elections more good news but not sensational for newscasters.
|
|
Pawian
European
Have you seen my frog?
Posts: 3,266
|
Post by Pawian on Nov 19, 2005 15:49:48 GMT -7
Pawian, Not only GROM. Regular soldiers also get their training in Iraq. "Bad news first" rule. Hmm, some people claim it will take hundred years to teach Iraqis democracy, and to support and protect it. Sometimes I am sceptical about democracy in Iraq, but my optimism usually takes over. I believe they will make it!
|
|
|
Post by bescheid on Nov 19, 2005 15:55:18 GMT -7
Pawian I have no argument with your presentation, actually, I am in full agreement with you..I truly do believe this is a situation that demands the services of a professional solder. The question is: When are the Iraqis able to take full responsibility for their government. With what signs of stability will be insured for a pull out of all foreign troops off Iraqi soil. At what level of democracy will be expected of the new Iraqi government? usinfo.state.gov/mena/Archive/2005/Nov/12-816574.htmlJust some questions that will be the responsibility of the Iraqi's to fulfill. Charles
|
|
|
Post by jimpres on Nov 19, 2005 15:57:54 GMT -7
Pawian,
We can only hope democracy works in Iraq. It is a foreign culture for all the Arabs, but if it takes hold it will change the world. Look a Cuba under socialism no economy, no jobs, Two classes rich and poor. Which is not true communism ala Marx and Engels.
|
|
|
Post by kaima on Nov 19, 2005 19:11:36 GMT -7
Bringing democracy is also the last excuse the US has for being in that country. None of the other reasons we handed to the world at the beginning of this adventure have panned out, so that is the last excuse we have.
Yes, it certainly is a good training ground for US, Polish and Mujahadeen troops. I am afraid we are training many more enemies than we are killing.
For the bottom line, it is good we are talking about the involvement now instead of just taking it as God's will that we take good Christian civilization to the heathen Muslim. That comes too close to the old Crusades and fires up more anti-US fanaticism.
At least the Poles are showing a good, adventuresome spirit by joining us and taking advantage of the opportunity to master modern warfare. Each generation must take advantage of the war it is offered.
Kai
|
|
|
Post by jimpres on Nov 19, 2005 20:04:56 GMT -7
Kai,
I disagree that democracy is the only reason. Should we put Sadam back in power, I'm sure he would accept, and let him kill, rape, gas murder his fellow countrymen? Or we could let the terroists take over and blow up mosks, and there own people until only terrioists exist. And when they have killed everyone on you block and your family is next do you then fight back?
|
|
|
Post by kaima on Nov 20, 2005 8:51:41 GMT -7
Hi Jim -
I never suggested we put Saddam back in office, nor am I suggesting that we pull out like some Republicans suggest in congress. I said "Bringing democracy is also the last excuse the US has for being in that country. None of the other reasons we handed to the world at the beginning of this adventure have panned out, so that is the last excuse we have."
We got ourseoves into this unnecessary pickle and now we have to spend more lives to get ourselves out "with honor". We can declare victory any time we chose, and we will when the politicians chose to do so. If taking out a nasty murderous dictator is our goal, we only have 150 or so more to remove. We don't have the resources to do it.
I regret that Bush has shown the world the limits of our physical power and the limits of our moral power. I remmber the torture of our boys in Korea, and here we are 55 years later doing the same. That is too much for this conservative guy. The neo-cons have turned the meaning of the word "conservative" on its ear. Barry Goldwater must be spinning in his grave.
Kai
|
|
|
Post by Jaga on Nov 20, 2005 9:45:07 GMT -7
Jerzy,
this may be seen as very controversial what I write now, but I think I have to.
on one hand I am glad that Polish soldiers are there, I hope that they would learn something from American soldiers who are very well trained and prepared for combat actions.
The fact that there were so few casualties and it the strange cases (like somebody cleaning the weapons) suggest that Poles were not really used in any real military actions... which is good and bad. Good, because they survived but -
you know what? When I was growing in Poland I heard terrible stories about how the freshmen soldiers are treated by the senor solldiers. I also remember seening the soldiers releaed from their 2-3 years of obligatory service and this was just terrible. They were drunk, dirty, rebelious, they were behaving like some worst soccer fans now.
But you could not oficially say anything bad about problems in military because it was illegal and not patriotic.
Then - I heard that Polish soldiers who were sent on stabilization mission in Yugoslavia as a part of UN..... when enemies came to the village which their function was to defend... they left as the first to protect their butts and many villagers were killed
So, I would hope that Polish soldiers would learn some military skills from Americans and would learn some morale. Since I heard what did Polish soldiers I stopped believing in eficency of any of the UN actions. These soldiers who are sent somewhere else in the world - they just do not care and they do not do their jobs since this is not their country and their values are too low to defend foreign people!
|
|
|
Post by bescheid on Nov 20, 2005 10:24:28 GMT -7
Jaga
Not to worry with possible criticism of your critic of the Polish solder. He/She is responsible for their actions by virtue of lack of proper military training. It is the officers Corp. that bears this responsibility, not the rank solders.
The proper training for officers was instituted in The USA to address this problem.
In Germany, the officers Corp. were faced with this exact problem in the post war years 1919. They were faced with the young Freikorps of defeated Germany. The young vets were disillusioned and of a nasty disposition.
The officers Corp. was now faced with this problem learned from maintaining discipline among the front line troops in the war (WW 1), now they must provide leader ship to the new Freikorp. They could only lead if the young troops would follow.
This principal is universal among any military. If by chance the principal is passed over by leadership in pursuit of power, personal gain and wanton disreguard of their responsibility as an officer.
Charles
|
|
|
Post by bescheid on Nov 20, 2005 10:52:22 GMT -7
Jim
I beg to disagree with you on the Iraqi/Democracy question. On presupposed principal, yes I do agree with you, with a standing, but?
For one thing, the American style of Democracy is very difficult to apply as a universal fix. It works for most western nations. But, there (Iraq) is a different matter. For one thing, the mind set of these people from birth do death is different. By religion, way of life, their expectations, their point of view to the out side world, and not to mention, their self view.
Free elections of course, are necessary, their own government and constitution to give the constitution strength and resilience, of course these are all necessary, but, not necessarily that which is modeled after the American government.
With the war in Iraq, well, and this is only an impartial opinion of observation.
The war was good (no matter the reasons of justification) it was successful in planing and execution. The solders of the army were successful, dedicated and efficient. They killed those that were the enemy to them. They were well lead and supplied.
There though followed, what appears to be, a loss of proper focus, after the victory. The solder by nature of his/her training, is to kill the enemy, that is it..
The problem though, the enemy changed from military enemy to a civilian one. Now it is a civil war and the new enemy is armed with weapons that were not properly destroyed previously in the after math of combat. Now, with the new enemy, comes support from the populations to view the new enemy as, Freedom fighters and patriots. This to free the country (Iraq) of the foreign occupation of their sovereign nation.
A young solder is trained to kill a military solder, but, not a civilian solder. It is a extremely difficult task, to shoot and kill a young girl or young smiling man, but, this the ideal weapon of the enemy to carry the destruction into the laps of the foreign invaders.
It is just the view point of empathic understanding of occupied people.
The loss of military focus of objective, loss of control of the population, failure to properly contain the Iraqi boarders to eliminate entry or exit of the country with out supervision.
Principal of controlling an occupied nation as only an opinion.
Charles
|
|
Pawian
European
Have you seen my frog?
Posts: 3,266
|
Post by Pawian on Nov 20, 2005 11:24:10 GMT -7
Then - I heard that Polish soldiers who were sent on stabilization mission in Yugoslavia as a part of UN..... when enemies came to the village which their function was to defend... they left as the first to protect their butts and many villagers were killed Forgive me but it is just not true. It is some horrible lie. I have always been interested in Balkan wars, I would have learnt about such an incident sooner or later. It would have been talked about in media in the same way as the infamous withdrawal of Dutch soldiers after which Serb nationalists massacred Muslim males in Srebrenica. Can you find any reference to the case on the Net? Or is it just a rumour? PS. Polish soldiers are not saints who can`t be critisized. There is a court trial going on in which some officers are accused of taking bribes from rigged contracts in Iraq. A few officers were involved in it, they will pay dearly.
|
|
|
Post by kaima on Nov 20, 2005 12:37:37 GMT -7
Yes, I believe it was troops from the Netherlands who left a protected city full of Moslem refugees to Serbian slaughter. Kai Then - I heard that Polish soldiers who were sent on stabilization mission in Yugoslavia as a part of UN..... when enemies came to the village which their function was to defend... they left as the first to protect their butts and many villagers were killed Forgive me but it is just not true. It is some horrible lie. I have always been interested in Balkan wars, I would have learnt about such an incident sooner or later. It would have been talked about in media in the same way as the infamous withdrawal of Dutch soldiers after which Serb nationalists massacred Muslim males in Srebrenica. Can you find any reference to the case on the Net? Or is it just a rumour? PS. Polish soldiers are not saints who can`t be critisized. There is a court trial going on in which some officers are accused of taking bribes from rigged contracts in Iraq. A few officers were involved in it, they will pay dearly.
|
|
|
Post by Jaga on Nov 20, 2005 13:48:37 GMT -7
Then - I heard that Polish soldiers who were sent on stabilization mission in Yugoslavia as a part of UN..... when enemies came to the village which their function was to defend... they left as the first to protect their butts and many villagers were killed Forgive me but it is just not true. yes, I heard about it and it was said somewhere in Polish mass meda, and I remember this til today because it shocked me but I doubt I can find the referecne. Are you really sure that Polish soldiers have very high moral grounds and training? I have some doubts about it, of course they have some elite units like grom but not all soldiers are Grom, I also believe that we do not know everything what is going on inside the army.
|
|
Pawian
European
Have you seen my frog?
Posts: 3,266
|
Post by Pawian on Nov 20, 2005 14:12:19 GMT -7
Are you really sure that Polish soldiers have very high moral grounds and training? I have some doubts about it, of course they have some elite units like grom but not all soldiers are Grom, I also believe that we do not know everything what is going on inside the army. The morale of soldiers, politicians, teachers, doctors, nurses, youngsters, policemen, lawyers etc etc is the reflection of the society`s general moral level. If the society is corrupt, then its representatives in these jobs mentioned will be corrupt too. Polish soldiers are different because the society which produced them is different. As for training, it`s level is higher than in the past. In communist times, with Warsaw Pact and cold war, Poland had 450.000 men at arms. They were poor boys, forcefully drafted into the army to serve 2 or 3 years. Today the Polish Army counts 150.000 men and is partly professional. The boys are still drafted, but for a year only. Those who really don` t want to become soldiers, can serve their duty in hospitals etc. Besides, there is money to pay those who want to stay in the army as contract soldiers after their 1 year is over. As for skeletons in the wardrobe in the Polish army, we should remember that Poland is a NATO member and as such must conform to and undergo many procedures which rule in the organization. The court trial of these corrupt Iraq officers is a good example. In the past it would have been hushed up, they would have never had any problems with justice.
|
|