Polish troops should stay in Iraq

[Pawian]

kaima said:

Yes, I believe it was troops from the Netherlands who left a protected city full of Moslem refugees to Serbian slaughter.

Well, I don`t really blame those Dutch soldiers. There was only 100 of them, they were armed in machine guns only. Serb nationalists were bloody well-equipped murderers.

Besides, if the Dutch had received an order to defend the town and Muslims, I am sure they would have not chickened out, they would have put up a fierce resistance, even at the cost of their lives.

But the saddest thing is that such an order wasn`t given to them by their superiors. The world just sneezed at brutalities, cruelties and massacres in Bosnia.

[kaima]

It sounds as if you are arguing both sides... "I would not blame them" and "Besides, if the Dutch had received an order to defend the town..."

That is their job, which is their profession. They were 100, by your count. There were 8000 Moslems slaughtered after they walked out. You have much the same mentality of Americans who refer to civilian lives as "collateral damage" and talk of "surgical strikes" to take out one man with a single 1000 lb bomb in a crowded city. Yea. And I do fine dentistry with my crowbar.

If the Nederlander had stood their ground, they may have died, but they may have saved 8000 lives and fulfilled their mission. They would have brought outrage upon the Serbs and the full revenge upon the Serb forces that did not result from the 8000 civilians. It was cowardice of the first order and nothing less.


Kai
PS The year was 1995, the place was Srebrenica.

pawian said:

kaima said:

Yes, I believe it was troops from the Netherlands who left a protected city full of Moslem refugees to Serbian slaughter.

Well, I don`t really blame those Dutch soldiers. There was only 100 of them, they were armed in machine guns only. Serb nationalists were bloody well-equipped murderers.

Besides, if the Dutch had received an order to defend the town and Muslims, I am sure they would have not chickened out, they would have put up a fierce resistance, even at the cost of their lives.

But the saddest thing is that such an order wasn`t given to them by their superiors. The world just sneezed at brutalities, cruelties and massacres in Bosnia.

[bescheid]

kai

Thank you! This would have been my reply. You saved me from extreme criticism for my disgusting reply as to the duties of a solder! And lawful responsibility of their officer.

Charles

[Pawian]

kaima said:

If the Nederlander had stood their ground, they may have died, but they may have saved 8000 lives and fulfilled their mission. They would have brought outrage upon the Serbs and the full revenge upon the Serb forces that did not result from the 8000 civilians. It was cowardice of the first order and nothing less.

You are wrong and unfair. Or you didn`t understand what I wrote about getting orders from higher ranks.
The Dutch army is a professional one. They act on orders given by superiors. At that time the UN was an agent which commended the whole peace-keeping operation. AND THE ORDERS WERE CLEAR - DO NOT FIGHT SERBS! If they push, retreat.
What did you expect? That cold professional soldiers would disobey orders? Revolt? Make a Polish-style rebellion?
Come on, it is easy to accuse of cowardice, but we should take all aspects into account.


Bes and Kai, my criticism isn` t disgusting, I hope.

[pieter]

Jaga, Pawian, Kaima, Bescheid,

Srebrenica was a national trauma in the Netherlands, because the public opinion (the Media and Population)
regarded the soldiers as cowards, and facts and coverages of the massacre keep comming in.
This newstopic was very heavily used by the media for years.
The main criticizm is that the officers and soldiers did not resist against the Serbs at all, and more importantly
put no pressure on the Serbs to protect the interests of the Muslim population.
We even saw our Duch commander Karremans looking very weak and shaken, drinking a glas of Yugoslavian Slivowitz with general Mladic, and when ;eaving receiving a present of Mladic. Besides that the Duch bataljon was known for it's anti-muslim
stand. After the save return of Duchbat3 in Zagreb Karremans praised general Mladic exuberant for his military strategy.
While the slaughter was going on (we later new) we saw the Duchbat soldiers dancing drunk and half naked in Zagreb.
His superior major Rob Franken, was known for his blunt behaviour.
Count to that the refusal of the UN to give airsupport, the lack of training and heavy arms, the situation for the Muslim population was hopeless. Not even the translator of Duchbat was able to rescue his familymembers via the Duch compound.
He is often on Duch television, because with a Duch layer he has instituted legal proceedings against the Duch state,
he has lost all the members of his family.
Unfortunately for the Muslims the Duch soldiers were from a new army division, which did not exsisted very long before that,
the Duch Airmobile brigade. These guys were no Duch marines or commando's, which operate under NATO command in Irak,
Afghanistan, and who are trained like GROM or the Navy Seals to operate under harsh conditions and heavy resistance and
superior strength of the enemy.

Fact is that the Muslims were no sweethards;
"There was little ethnic mixing in Bosnia Herzegovina, which became a problem as tension mounted. One reason for Serb suspicion was a growing Muslim movement to establish a Muslim state within the Bosnian boundaries. To accomplish this, Serbs and Serb villages were attacked. A Serb weekly reported in 1995 that in an area around Srebrenica and including 100 villages, hamlets and towns - since 1992 - 2800 Serbs had been killed and 6000 injured in more than 100 villages, towns and hamlets.

These crimes still haven't been officially investigated, although they have been confirmed by Dutch UN military personnel present at the time. The man most responsible for this scorched earth policy was the infamous Naser Oric.

These systematic attacks by Muslim fighters against Bosnian Serb enclaves were the reason the Serbs attacked Srebrenica in July 1995.

Mladic, the Serb commander, informed the UN commander that the attack was to eliminate terrorists and not civilians or UN troops. The decision to capture Srebrenica was made when it was realized that Muslim fighters had fled in large numbers the night before the attack. Most probably they left because it wasn't strategically worth it to them to fight for it.

[pieter]

More accurate information on Srebrenica:
www.jcpa.org/jl/vp458.htm

SREBRENICA: THE DUTCH SABRA AND SHATILLA

Manfred Gerstenfeld


Genocide in Bosnia / The UN and Rwanda / Double Standards / Sharon, Srebrenica, and Belgian Morals / Documenting the Facts / The Dutch Involvement in the Yugoslav War / Why Send Soldiers to Srebrenica? / Functioning in an Emergency / The Failure of the Dutch Military / France's Role / Were the Dutch Impartial? / Exemplary Representatives of Morality / The Investigations / Where were the Intellectuals? / A Case Study in European Hypocrisy / First to Criticize Others / Future Developments

In the UN safe area of Srebrenica, 6-8,000 Bosnian Moslems were murdered in July 1995 by the Bosnian Serbs, making it the largest civilian massacre in Europe since the Holocaust. The United Nations leaders, those of their peace-keeping forces, and the Dutch government had known for some time that the enclave was not defensible and had not taken adequate protective measures. Although aware that Serbs were executing Bosnian Moslems, the Dutch UN forces fled the area. Before that, Dutch soldiers helped separate the Bosnian men from the women. No UN or Dutch political or military leaders have ever been held accountable for their failure to prevent these crimes.

Genocide in Bosnia

On July 11, 1995, the Bosnian Serb army conquered the Srebrenica enclave, a declared UN "safe area," and began murdering Bosnian Moslems. Ten days later, on July 21, the Dutch battalion (Dutchbat) of UNPROFOR (the United Nations Protection Force) fled the Srebrenica area for Zagreb. The death toll rose to at least 6-8,000, with several sources putting the figure higher, making it the single largest slaughter of civilians in Europe since the Holocaust.

The current mayor of Srebrenica, the Moslem Nesib Mandzic, told the Dutch daily De Volkskrant that Lieutenant Colonel Thom Karremans, commander of Dutchbat, had totally forgotten the Moslems whom his forces were supposed to protect.1 According to an official UN report, up to 20,000 Bosnian Moslems were killed in and around all of the "safe areas" that the UN had established for their protection.2

Though it was already known that Bosnian hostages had been executed, and rumors of genocide were rife,3 the commander of the Dutch land forces at the time, General Couzy, decided that the Dutch soldiers in Zagreb were entitled to a party. The Dutch historian Henri Beunders wrote a year later: "While the Bosnians were standing up to their knees in blood, the Dutch soldiers in Zagreb were standing up to their ankles in beer, being applauded by Crown Prince Willem Alexander, [prime minister] Kok and [minister of defense] Voorhoeve."4 Among the Dutch soldiers were racist radicals who were known to make the Nazi salute.5

UN Secretary General Kofi Annan offered his perspective five years after the Srebrenica massacre: "The tragedy of Srebrenica will forever haunt the history of the United Nations. This day commemorates a massacre on a scale unprecedented in Europe since the Second World War -- a massacre of a people who had been led to believe that the United Nations would ensure their safety."6

The Serbs have taken the brunt of Western criticism, while the crimes of the Croats and Bosnians have remained in the shadows. This is partly due to the mass murder in Srebrenica. The Serb assault began on July 6, 1995, and lasted for a full six days through July 11, 1995. Mass executions continued for another week. In other words, UNPROFOR, its French commander, the United Nations, or even the Dutch government had considerable time to monitor, report, and decide on immediate intervention in order to stop the bloodshed.

The UN subsequently concluded from documents and interviews obtained from Serb sources that the Serbs initially had only limited objectives, but "decided to advance all the way to Srebrenica where they assessed that UNPROFOR was not willing or able to stop them."7

On June 25, 2001, when the prosecutor of the Yugoslavia Tribunal in the Hague, Mark Harmon, requested a life sentence against Bosnian Serb General Radislav Krstic, Harmon claimed that the plan for the Srebrenica genocide was made only between July 11-12, 1995, in Hotel Fontana, where Krstic and Bosnian Serb commander Ratko Mladic also met with Dutch commander Karremans on those days. To what extent did the impressions obtained in the meeting before the plan was finalized help the Serb military in making their decision?8

[pieter]

'Brutal crimes' of Bosnia Muslims

Hadzihasanovic is most senior Bosnian Muslim soldier on trial
Bosnian Muslims committed war crimes including a ritual beheading, the Hague tribunal was told at the start of a landmark trial.
Two ex-army commanders are the first senior Bosnian Muslims to appear before the tribunal.

They are charged with killing at least 200 Bosnian Croat and Serb civilians in central Bosnia-Hercegovina in 1993.

Ex-General Enver Hadzihasanovic, 53, and Colonel Amir Kubura, 39, deny charges including murder.


This trial...will show war crimes were committed by both sides of the conflict
Ekkehard Withopf
Prosecutor
A third man named in the original indictment, General Mehmed Alagic, died in March this year.

Prosecutors claim most of the killings were carried out by foreign Muslim fighters, known as mujahideen, but the accused failed to prevent the deaths.

Prosecutors say some prisoners were forced to dig trenches under fire or were used as human shields.

"This trial...will show war crimes were committed by both sides of the conflict in central Bosnia," said prosecutor Ekkehard Withopf.

"This trial will give the world a more complete picture of the war in Bosnia."


CHARGES
Murder, cruel treatment
Wanton destruction, plunder of public or private property
Wilful destruction of religious institutions
Mr Withopf said one victim had suffered "a beheading that can only be described as a ritual beheading".

The court was shown photographs of murdered Croats, and was told that many victims were brutally beaten to unconsciousness or death.

"They failed to prevent war crimes committed by their subordinates. They failed to prevent them," said Mr Withopf.

Bias claims

Serbs see the international tribunal at The Hague as a political court with anti-Serb bias.

Observers say putting more high-profile Bosnian Muslims in the dock will do little to change this sentiment.


Kubura led the controversial 7th Muslim Brigade
The most senior Bosnian Muslim investigated by the tribunal was the country's war-time leader Alija Izetbegovic, who died last month.

The investigation was made public on the day of his funeral - 22 October 2003.

The indictment against the army commanders charges them with failing to stop their subordinates when they attacked towns and villages, killing Croat and Serb civilians as well as Croatian soldiers who had surrendered.

"They knew, or had reason to know, that the forces under their command had committed or were going to commit these acts," the indictment says.


Izetbegovic led the government during the war of the early 1990s
"They did not take necessary and reasonable measures to prevent them or punish those who committed them."

Mr Hadzihasanovic and Mr Kubura appeared as witnesses in the trial of the Croatian General, Tihomir Blaskic, who received a 45-year jail term for war crimes.

However, they are not the first Muslims to go on trial at the tribunal.

Two camp commanders were sentenced in 1998 for crimes against Serbs.

Bosnian Serb leaders Radovan Karadzic and Ratko Mladic have been indicted by the tribunal for war crimes but remain at large.

Former Yugoslav President Slobodan Milosevic is on trial for alleged war crimes offences in Bosnia and elsewhere.

[pieter]

Naser Oric transferred to The Hague

Troops of the international peace force in Bosnia (SFOR) have captured Naser Oric, a former Bosnian Muslim militia leader. Naser Oric, who used to command the Bosnian Muslim military forces in Srebrenica, has been transferred to The Hague where he will be appearing before the UN war crimes tribunal to answer charges of "violations of the laws and customs of war", including murder, wanton destruction and plunder. The Tribunal had not made his indictment public.

The crimes Naser Oric stands accused of were committed in Eastern Bosnia during the 1992-1995 war when Srebrenica, a Muslim town, was surrounded by both regular and irregular Bosnian Serb forces and cut off from the outside world. As a result, the population - its numbers swollen as a result of a steady stream of refugees from villages in the region that had fallen victim to Serb ethnic cleansing - was suffering from extreme hunger: the Serb forces allowed no food transports into the Muslim enclave.

Raids around Srebrenica
Naser Oric, who functioned as Srebrenica's military commander, is alleged to have led many raids of Srebrenica residents to ethnic-Serb villages in the vicinity. They were supposed to follow orders from the Bosnian Army Command in Sarajevo, but Sarajevo never seemed very interested in the fate of the Muslim enclave Srebrenica – except to list it as supreme example of the outside world's lack of interest in what happened to the Bosnian Muslims.

So the makeshift motley military force of the Muslims in Srebrenica, under the command of its 25-year old warlord, learned to fend for itself. Its desperate pleas to Sarajevo for more weapons and ammunition remained unanswered. They ravaged and ransacked neighbouring ethnic Serb villages, killing and maiming the residents, who were often too old to offer any resistance. Hunger drove the Muslims to ignore age-old food laws: pigs were slaughtered and taken home to the enclave. The Serb villages were then set on fire.

Bosnian Serb retaliation
The Bosnian Serbs did not forget Naser Oric and his raids. They claim he was responsible for killing over 1,000 Serb civilians. It was uppermost in the Serbs' minds when in the early summer of 1995 they tightened their stranglehold on the enclave. Once Srebrenica had fallen (the weak Dutch UNPROFOR peace force stationed in the town had not attempted to offer any resistance to the Serb onslaught), Bosnian Serb Army units led by General Ratko Mladic immediately started separating women and children from the men and boys. The Bosnian Serbs gave Nasir Oric's raids as reason for this sinister move: they said they wanted to find out whether any of the male population had taken part in them. Then, Mladic's forces executed them all, up to 8,000, an unmatched atrocity in post-World War Two Europe.

Naser Oric survived, though. He had left the enclave before it was stormed by the Serbs. Up till now, it has never been made clear whether his well-timed exit was his own idea or whether the military command in Sarajevo was in any way involved. The UN Tribunal in The Hague has made it clear it is not connecting Naser Oric with the Serb massacre of July 1995; what the Tribunal wants to do is to put Naser Ori¥ on trial for his alleged crimes committed earlier. But Mr Oric's arrest offers an opportunity to fill in one or two blank pages in the bloody history of the 1992-1995 war in Bosnia.

© Radio Nederland Wereldomroep, all rights reserved

[Pawian]

pieter said:

Jaga, Pawian, Kaima, Bescheid,

Srebrenica was a national trauma in the Netherlands, because the public opinion (the Media and Population)
regarded the soldiers as cowards,

Thank you for joining. I was hoping you would state your opinion. But apart from general comments, you didn`t specify what you really think.
What is your personal opinion on the Dutch soldiers` behaviour in Srebrenica? Were they cowards or not? Should they have fought hard?

[george]

Although i disagree with American involvment in Iraq, i have to admit, that American soldiers are the best trained, most proffestional in the world. They are second to none. I don't know all the details of the Polish Army, but its my assumption that their training needs improvement. By being an ally to the US, will bring funds to bring their military up to snuff.

[Jaga]

pawian said:

kaima said:

Yes, I believe it was troops from the Netherlands who left a protected city full of Moslem refugees to Serbian slaughter.

Well, I don`t really blame those Dutch soldiers. There was only 100 of them, they were armed in machine guns only. Serb nationalists were bloody well-equipped murderers.

Besides, if the Dutch had received an order to defend the town and Muslims, I am sure they would have not chickened out, they would have put up a fierce resistance, even at the cost of their lives.

But the saddest thing is that such an order wasn`t given to them by their superiors. The world just sneezed at brutalities, cruelties and massacres in Bosnia.

There is a big difference between defending your country or attacking other country from ideologic reasons and between being just the mercinary soldier or the UN soldier who does not feel any engagement towards the country it serves except that he is getting paid. This is one of the reasons why all the UN missions are usually not succesful. I also believe that American soldiers are far more superior trained than many soldiers from other countries. They also have more experience in the field since America is more prone to go to other countries from different reasons.

Pieter, thanks for taking part in our discussion.

[Jaga]

pawian said:

You are wrong and unfair. Or you didn`t understand what I wrote about getting orders from higher ranks.
The Dutch army is a professional one. They act on orders given by superiors.

This reminds me another scene after Pakistani earthquake just recently. They were showing some poor civilians digging to find their relatives inside the ruins and then... there was a group of Pakistani soldiers who were just standing or rather marching in place all gathered and seemed unsure. One reporter asked them - why they do not help the villagers to try to find some injured or dead - they responded that they did not get any orders.... so they were just standing here doing nothing... because they did not receive any orders!!!

[kaima]

pawian said:

kaima said:

If the Nederlander had stood their ground, they may have died, but they may have saved 8000 lives and fulfilled their mission. They would have brought outrage upon the Serbs and the full revenge upon the Serb forces that did not result from the 8000 civilians. It was cowardice of the first order and nothing less.

You are wrong and unfair. Or you didn`t understand what I wrote about getting orders from higher ranks.
The Dutch army is a professional one. They act on orders given by superiors. At that time the UN was an agent which commended the whole peace-keeping operation. AND THE ORDERS WERE CLEAR - DO NOT FIGHT SERBS! If they push, retreat.
What did you expect? That cold professional soldiers would disobey orders? Revolt? Make a Polish-style rebellion?
Come on, it is easy to accuse of cowardice, but we should take all aspects into account.


Bes and Kai, my criticism isn` t disgusting, I hope.

Soldiers exist for two things: to kill people and to break things. In third place they are ther to save lives. They Netherlanders did none of the above.

No, it is unforgivable. If thye had fought they could have changed the course of history. If they died they could have changed the course of history as the American Alamo did.

If I were there and participated I might have done the same thing - but then I would expect I would have had enough self-respect to kill myself with alcohol by now. Scew the orders, you have to do what is right now and then.

Yes, it is easy to pass judgement from a long distance and ten eyars in time. I am glad I was not there.

Kai

[justjohn]

Kai,

In any given situation during times of combat, it is extremely difficult to predict your behavious. It is true the US military is superbly trained. This training helps keep the reaction to blood and mayhem within the bounds of your mission.

The requirement of the UN for a fighting force from other nations is just not realistic. It has been proven time and again that they are not reliable. Nothing to do with their ability just the fact that they are not fighting for something of value to them.

The current requirement for our nations military when they are recruited is to take an oath to fight not just to protect our shores and constitution but to subordinate to the UN.

My answere to this is: "It will be a cold day in hell when I or any of my children will buy into that line of 'Bull Sh - t'.

I am passing judgement from previous experience. And, you are right. I am glad that I was not there. (Balkans)

[pieter]

Pawian,

My personal opinion on the Dutch soldiers is the same as Kaima;
"Soldiers exist for two things: to kill people and to break things. In third place they are ther to save lives.
They Netherlanders did none of the above."

And I add to that this, it is regrettable that there were weak UN-forces overthere, because heavily armed
and better equipped NATO troops, with good logistics, airsupport, tanks, artillery and special forces would
have done it completely differantly.
As a Netherlander I am ashamed of this history, and the amateurism and lack of fightingspirit of the Duch.
Worst I consider the fact that they even collaborated with the Serbs in Selecting people.
I even question on which side they were on. I know from a ex-soldier and policeman from Arnhem
that there were pro-Serb sympathies under the Duch soldiers. They found the Serbs more disciplined
and reliable. I have not been there and do not know what kind of people the Bosniaks are.
What I find of the Duchbat 3 soldiers is that they are empty headed, spoiled kids of the backbench
(of thir parents car) generation. I saw some of the soldiers on television. Crying babies.
Unfortunately I have to say that I think some of the Duch considdered the Serbs as the good party,
because they are Christians, and the Muslims as the bad party, because they are Muslims (people
they already did'nt like or knew form Holland). Lack of responsability, military honour and empathy
was their problem.

Pieter