For our friends in Poland

[Jaga]

Guys,

if you would like to know America better - please print out and read this book by Kapuscinski:

Dlaczego zgin¹³ Karl von Spreti

serwisy.gazeta.pl/kapuscinski/1,23083,472708.html

Kochani - zrozumiecie dlaczego Stany sa nienawidzone w Ameryce Lacinskiej tak jak ZSRR w Europie Wschodniej

smutne ale prawdziwe

[Jaga]

Americans do not understand that there is a difference between Soviet-type of communism and for instance Italian type of communism. Here communism is the same bad word as terrorism. When you apply for citizenship they ask you whether you ever were...
a member of communistic or terroristic organization

Some people who were fighting for changing of social unequality in South or Central America were called communists, some priests were fighting for right for poor, even our pope John Paul II did not understand it.

But - does it really make a difference if you were killed by communist or a right-wing extremist?

I do not think so...

[Jaga]

I was in Germany once sitting next to a friend from Columbia, we were in the metro (subway). He heard some North Americans talking, I saw his face changing and he moved in a different corner of the metro. He just hated North Americans who were just... innocent tourists, talking probably too laudly. But these kind of hate towards North Americans is unfortunately spread over many other American countries.

I could not understand it in that time since for me America was a country fighting for freedom. But the sad truth is that America supports foreign regimes (often) not necessary because of their democratic policies but because defend American interests in their country.

[Jaga]

Here is a story of Guatemala (also described by Kapuscinski) in the brief:

The capital of the United Fruit Company empire (USA COMPANY) was in Guatemala, in the town of Bananera, where it made its headquarters. From here it master-minded its empire and corrupted every level of government and politics in Guatemala. United Fruit also managed to exempt itself from virtually all taxes for 99 years. UFCO had its fingers in almost every pie in Guatemala. UFCO had the unconditional support of right-wing dictators who maintained their power by terrorizing the people and arresting prominent citizens who were either killed on the spot or tortured in prison to extract confessions. During one wave of repression under Jorge Ubico, hundreds were killed in just two days.

In 1944, the people of Guatemala overthrew the right-wing dictator then in power, Jorge Ubico. Guatemala held its first true elections in history. They elected Dr. Juan Jose Arevalo Bermej to the presidency. A new constitution was drawn up, based on the U.S. Constitution. Arevalo was a socialist and an educator who built over 6,000 schools in Guatemala and made great progress in education and health care.
At this time in Guatemala, just 2.2 percent of the population owned over 70 percent of the country's land. Only 10 percent of the land was available for 90 percent of the population, most of whom were Indians. Most of the land held by the large landowners was unused. Arevalo was succeeded in another free election by Jacobo Arbenz who continued the reform process begun under Arevalo. Arbenz proposed to redistribute some of the unused land and make it available for the 90 percent to farm. Here is where the problem arose: United Fruit was one of the big holders of unused land in Guatemala. The pressure mounted against UFCO and finally the company complained to the many friends it had within the U.S. government including President Eisenhower and Secretary of State John Foster Dulles, saying that Guatemala had turned communist.

The U.S. State Department and United Fruit embarked on a major public relations campaign to convince the American people and the rest of the U.S. government that Guatemala was a Soviet "satellite".
The campaign succeeded and in 1954 the U.S. Central Intelligence Agency orchestrated a coup, code-named "Operation PBSUCCESS". The invading force numbered only 150 men under the command of Castillo Armas but the CIA convinced the Guatemalan public and President Arbenz that a major invasion was underway. The CIA set up a clandestine radio station to carry propaganda, jammed all Guatemalan stations, and hired skilled American pilots to bomb strategic points in Guatemala City. The U.S. replaced the freely elected government of Guatemala with another right-wing dictatorship that would again bend to UFCO's will.



...
www.mayaparadise.com/ufc1e.htm

[Jaga]

Sorry to rumble about it but I just read Kapuscinski book.

Here is more about United Fruit - why they did not treat these workers like American workers?

United Fruit brought tangible benefits to the countries where it operated, but also brought problems or perpetuated existing ones. For the legions of seasonal workers in the fields, life was very hard. Conditions were physically dangerous and the toxic chemicals used on the banana plants were a constant hazard. Malaria and dengue fever were a constant danger as well. The field workers for UFCO were paid more than on other farms but the work was seasonal and annually amounted to very little. United Fruit staunchly opposed any attempts at the formation of unions. It would abandon entire areas if unionism started to gain a foothold. When it abandoned an area it would tear down the housing and schools it had built leaving the area destitute. The company also practiced institutionalized racism. In company towns like Morales/Bananera and Puerto Barrios non-whites were forced to yield right-of-way to whites. The whole concept of a "banana republic" was exemplified by the conditions in Guatemala from 1920 through 1944. The government worked very closely with United Fruit to maintain the highly stratified, fiefdom-like social structure of Guatemala so as to provide a plentiful supply of cheap labor. UFCO didn't create this social structure but worked to amplify it and perpetuate it.

[piwo]

Jaga,

Many things are "sad but true", what is the message here? What are you trying to warn "our friends in Poland" of? It's late and I am probably missing something.

[Jaga]

piwo said:

Jaga,

Many things are "sad but true", what is the message here? What are you trying to warn "our friends in Poland" of? It's late and I am probably missing something.

Piwo,

did you ever heard about Kapuscinski? He is a famous Polish journalist/reporter who travelled all around the world. He spent many years of his life in Africa, America, he also wrote a book about Soviet Union/Russia called "Imperium".

I just read his book, freely available on the internet and devoted to Guatemala story, very sad. It made me sad.

What I was meaning - we Poles lived far from Americas, so we view the world differently, we hated Soviet empire but we believed that America is a different type of country, a much better one. It is deifinitvely a better country for its OWN citizens that Russia.

But, double standards are everywhere. Is a communistic type of totalitarian regime any worse that capitalistic right-wing type of totalitarian regime? - I do not mean the USA here, but some other countries which are supported by the USA

Probably I vented a bit but... do some countries have more rights than the other to impose their rules to the rest of the world?

[pieter]

<<Americans do not understand that there is a difference between Soviet-type of communism and for instance Italian type of communism. Here communism is the same bad word as terrorism. When you apply for citizenship they ask you whether you ever were...
a member of communistic or terroristic organization>>

Indeed there is a differance between Eurocommunism and Sovjet-communism, in fact they were oponents in the seventees and eightees. We distinguished the Moscow loyal hardliners, the French, Spanish and German communists (the West German
KPD was forbidden during the cold war), and the independant communists from Yugoslavia (Titoism), Italy (Eurocommunists),
Trotskyists (the Fourth International), the Liberation theology (Socialist christianity) and marxists within the Social-democratic
West-European countries (the Leftwing side of the parties) and the Socialist, Communist adn Syndicalist Unions in Western Europe. In Western Europe Marxism-Leninism followed a diiferant path then the State socialist Peoples republics in the East,
where Marxsist policies, theory, economy and philopshy was the only allowed way to follow and practise.
In the West Marxism ws influenced by emancipation movements (Feminism, affirmative action, Unions -fighting for workers rights-), Social-democratic reformism, studentmovements, the liberation struggles in the indepance wars in former colonies,
the anti-nuclear movement, environmentalists, animal rights activists, gay right activists, the sexual revolution of the sixtees, and the war in Vietnam, the Capitalist system and the existance of left, liberal and Christian-democrat (often social-conservative) oponents. When you see that the Sovjet-Communism was a sort of reactionary orthodox (conservative)
State socialim, in the West you had differant kinds of Communisms, form the radical liberal kind to the Moscow loyalist one,
and many flavours inbetween (Maoist, Che Guevarra followers, Latin-American stile Sandinistas supporters and etc).
the Linkspartei (Leftparty) in Germany is a reflex of that past, it is a mixture of former East-block communism (Ostweh,
Ostalgia under East-Germans) and the radical left liberalism of West-German dissidents within the Social-democratic party
of Schröder. The Anti-globalist Movement is a bigger example of the Mix of East-and Western Marxism-leninism in a
new coat. Marxsim is alive in America under students and professors of the Universaties.

Pieter

[piwo]

Jaga,
Thanks for the explanation. I just didn't pick up on what the overriding message was. I had been out late, and just didn't pick up on the direction, but now having read your last post, I see it was there.

Well, I don't know of the gentleman you refer. I'm sure it was an interesting read. I know of no country which doesn't act in their self interest, nor free of sin when dealing with their own people, or the outside world. USA is no exception, with stains on her soul that should never and will never be forgotten. But then again, as Americans, we are taught them (more so now then say, 50 years ago anyway) along with our successes as well.

May I ask one further clarification?
Is your recommendation to your Polish Friends directed at those say, under 30, who may not have been educated with the Soviet teachings about the "evil America" at school and in the official news? Has education changed completely with regards to USA? I ask because I would have thought those 30 and over could pretty much recite America's failings pretty easily. My "native Pole" friends here in the states tell me they certainly were well versed of America's shortcoming at every opportunity growing up.

For us here in the States, it's like finding faults with one's spouse: if you want to look, they are there. The more you want to dig, the more you'll find because they are imperfect creatures (as are governments). If one is motivated to find them all, one could spend a lifetime doing so and probably never stop finding them. I suppose what one hopes to accomplish with that new found information will determine if it was for the good or not.

As for venting, well I'd think that normal after an emotional read.

[Pawian]

admin said:

Is a communistic type of totalitarian regime any worse that capitalistic right-wing type of totalitarian regime? - I do not mean the USA here, but some other countries which are supported by the USA

I think a country ruled by communists is in much worse situation than the one ruled by right -wing regime. The answer is simple - ECONOMY. In both countries people lack personal freedom and have to obey their authorities. However, in right wing country they are at least free to make money, get rich, develop businesses and enterprises, be active in economic spheres. Such an activity surely contributes to the progress in a country.

Communism, hovewer, developed another type of a citizen- a homo sovieticus man. Passive, inactive, expecting the state to provide everything for nothing. Such people couldn`t make progress in the country.

A good example is Chile. Under Pinochet`s junta rule it is was a bloody right-wing regime where thousands of people were tortured, executed, imprisoned or repressed. But Pinochet supported the development of economy.
The GDP in Chile rose from 1000$ in 1975 to 10000$ in 2002.
That was the result of right wing healthy economic thinking.

globalis.gvu.unu.edu/indicator_detail.cfm?country=CL&indicatorid=19

[jimpres]

Pawian,

I agree capitalism works great. Socialism does not work well. There is no incentive to do anything since everything is handed to you for free. Well someone pays for it.

[Pawian]

jimpres said:

Pawian,

Socialism does not work well. There is no incentive to do anything since everything is handed to you for free. Well someone pays for it.

It is people themselves who pay for it. It is true that in communism health care and schooling are free. There are subventions to food, transport, holidays etc. Mothers can get 3-year paid holiday from work to look after their babies. People get apartments from the state at 75% discount. People retire at 50.

Paradise? Not really.

It was also true in communist Poland. But it was also true that an average salary was 20-30$ a month if someone tried to compare currencies. People got cheap apartments but after 20, 25 years of waiting!!! There was cheap milk but is was so diluted with water that it was undrinkable. There was cheap cottage cheese but it used to be already sold out at 9 am.
Etc Etc Etc Etc Etc Etc

[jimpres]

I hope Poland is getting better economicaly and things are improving. I know the unemployment rate is high. With some foreign investments maybe that will change.

[pieter]

Pawian,

I aggree with your analysis of Communism, but in the same time warn for the execces of the Capitalist system,
as the Polish pope did (I aggreed with him). Like Communism the Libertarian Capitalism defines everything
only economically, and in political sense in a pure form can lead to a society in which Multi-nationals have
a inluence on space and property like the Communist state did.
Like Communism Capitalism needs opposition, critics and structures which reforms it to social acceptble
living conditions for citizens, employees, ill, unemployed and sick people.
Under Communism these meganisms where the "Black-market" (the alternative for the Comecon, and
planed state economies), the Christian churches, dissident movements of intellectuals and the
protests of workers (the original base for Marxism-leninism; which in advance based itself on the Class
struggle of the working class). The devellopment of Chillian economy was based on the blood, swet and
tears of the Chilian population, and much of the profits went to the ruling class and abroad to foreign
companies. The rightwing healthy economical thinking was based on the Neo-liberal Chicago school of Friedrich Hayek.
Funny thing is that both sides of the Chilian "confrontation" in the seventees, the leftwing socialist Salvador
Allende was supported by the KGB (via the Chilian Communist party, while Allende was of the Socialist party),
and Pinochet by the CIA.

Pieter

[Pawian]

jimpres said:

I hope Poland is getting better economicaly and things are improving. I know the unemployment rate is high. With some foreign investments maybe that will change.

Things have been constantly improving since 1989. However, they could have improved faster, like in China with 8% rate yearly. The highest Polish rate so far has been around 6%, currently it is 4%. It should be faster. However, there is too much socialism left in Polish economy.

As for unemplyment, the matter is really strange. It is 17% now, but employers constantly complain that when they look for professional workers, nobody or very few apply. People prefer to work illegally, being registered as unemployed at the same time.
That is why some experts estimate real unemployment is about 11-12% now.