george
Cosmopolitan
Posts: 568
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Post by george on Nov 29, 2005 17:25:59 GMT -7
Jaga....i was in a Polish hospital in Poland which has national helath insurance. I was absolutley shocked . Before i went to visit this hopital, i thought Poland emerged into a 1st world country. However i thought their healthcare was third world at best. Six to a rooom!! No privacy. People who were spent 4 weeks in that hospital versus in America where that same patient might spend a few hours at a outpatient clinic. It was one of the most depressing things i ever saw. Old men and woman who shouldn't have been staying there in the first place. My understanding is that the longer people stayed in hospitals, the more money the hospital got from the state health care system. If that is what national health insurance is about, then count me out!
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nancy
European
Posts: 2,144
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Post by nancy on Nov 29, 2005 19:26:16 GMT -7
My understanding is that the longer people stayed in hospitals, the more money the hospital got from the state health care system. This is really interesting - the system in the US seems to be exactly the opposite - the shorter the stay, the better the ultimate benefit to the hosptal. So, in Poland, people are kept too long and in the US people are not kept long enough.
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Post by kaima on Nov 30, 2005 0:20:12 GMT -7
Jaga....i was in a Polish hospital in Poland which has national helath insurance. I was absolutley shocked . Before i went to visit this hopital, i thought Poland emerged into a 1st world country. However i thought their healthcare was third world at best. Six to a rooom!! No privacy. People who were spent 4 weeks in that hospital versus in America where that same patient might spend a few hours at a outpatient clinic. It was one of the most depressing things i ever saw. Old men and woman who shouldn't have been staying there in the first place. My understanding is that the longer people stayed in hospitals, the more money the hospital got from the state health care system. If that is what national health insurance is about, then count me out! George, it is quite easy to take your observations true, but I suggest you try to see it in a different light. Jaga and other Poles and non-Americans can step in to correct my perspective where necessary. We have to realize there are different philosophies in medicine, even within our "western" medicine. Europeans tend to keep patients in the hospital much longer than in America. In Germany, I would guess 4 x as long from multiple experiences with friends. In the Czech Republic when I visited my aunt in the hospital it was almost like stepping into a 1920's movie set. We have to be careful not to let ancient architecture color the perspective of the medicine. By the way, my aunt went as a normal citizen cared for by the national plan and shared a room for two people. Having the old people in the hospital for long periods of time is no surprise to me. That is the one sure way to 1) make sure they behave as the doctor orders 2) actually rest instead of work 3) are kept properly warm and well fed while recovering. I think you are reading far too much into it to blame national health insurance. They have a different standard of care, one that exceeds ours in some regards and assumes duties we assign to other agencies. I do not believe everything they do is as dollar driven as are our activities. I have a basic EMT for the Wilderness rating, so am a bit more familiar with medical care and the different approaches that can be taken in applying proper care. There is quite a difference between US and Western European care as well. The one thing we can say for sure is that our care is more expensive. Just one opinion. Kai
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george
Cosmopolitan
Posts: 568
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Post by george on Nov 30, 2005 15:18:04 GMT -7
Appreciate different opinions. However, if one has to spend a few hours in a outpatient clinic, that tells me they have medical technology to perform non-evasive measure where patients are not inconvieced in spending several days in a depressing hospital. ( who wants to spend anymore time in a hospital than neccessary!). Our care here is much more expensive because they have the latest medical technology. It costs money, much more money. However you get the best of care. You get what you pay for. Would people here put up with national helath insurance at the expensive of the latest up to date care. No way! It would be like trying to put toothpaste back into the tube. And as far as having old people rest in a hospital, well that would seem like a inefficient way to have older people who don't work anymore to rest. I would rather rest at home. One more thing. Our neighbors to the north Canada have NHI. Many, many come here for procedures and pay cash because the waiting list is too long in their homeland. I think that speaks volumes.
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Post by kaima on Dec 2, 2005 16:14:27 GMT -7
George,
I am a bit disappointed that this thread has died. I left it a few days hoping several people with experience in both the US and overseas & Poland specifically would add comments. I guess nobody much cares.
I am not convinced that you do appreciate different opinions. You didn't address any new ideas but did repeat some of the regular perspectives, and your feelings of not likening it overseas, which has to be respected as an opinion.
We do agree that our US medical care costs a bunch of money and that we often (not always) have the latest medical technology. I seriously question your conclusion that "...you get the best of care (in the USA)." That simply can't be with the statistics that put us in a very mediocre position of early death rates and a high infant mortality. That points to a mediocre medical care, although very expensive. Something is seriously wrong; we just do not want to recognize it. Oh, and our lives are getting shorter in the USA and the infant mortality rate has been rising. Somewhere in the last 50 years we have taken a wrong path. We did not maintain our leading position in medical care; we have been passed by by much of the world.
Having old people rest in the hospital was a strange idea to me at first, but on second thought I realized my aunt would not be resting as she should, she would be doing and doing, as she has all of her life. She needed an enforced rest, and it seems that the hospital was the best local alternative. I can imagine it being a very effective method of care, as it proved to be in this case.
Well, with no one joining in I will also drop this thread. Perhaps With a different mix of people we can get some fresh ideas and opinions.
Kai Wow, it is bad enough with fingers that have a mind of their own on original spelling, but it is worse to run it through a spell checker and then not paste the corrected text!
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Post by kaima on Dec 2, 2005 16:16:22 GMT -7
This is really interesting - the system in the US seems to be exactly the opposite - the shorter the stay, the better the ultimate benefit to the hosptal. So, in Poland, people are kept too long and in the US people are not kept long enough. How do your figure the shorter stay is better for the hospital, Nancy? Full occupancy I thought was the trick. Kai
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nancy
European
Posts: 2,144
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Post by nancy on Dec 2, 2005 16:42:49 GMT -7
How do your figure the shorter stay is better for the hospital, Nancy? Full occupancy I thought was the trick. Kai I miswrote. I was thinking of the insurance companies (HMOs and the like) and wrote hospital instead. There is no doubt that hospital stays per patient are reduced almost to the point of the absurd in some cases, sometimes going against what the doctor thinks is necessary and endangering the patient. This trend has been driven by the insurance companies, who want to pay as little as possible. Actually, I think the hospitals are suffering, many of the Boston hospitals have merged because they could not maintain financial viability on their own. How did this state of affairs ever come about, anyway? My dentist said the MDs "sold out" long ago (and now regret it) whereas the dentists, being a smaller group, knew they could not survive under the managed care rules and have continued to fight them. The most ridiculous aspect of health care in the US is that it is tied to being employed - as long as you have a job with benefits, you are covered (and of course a good many working people do not have benefits). When you retire, you lose the coverage, and paying for it on your own can be prohibitive. My husband and I have had excellent coverage for all of our working lives, and have not needed it except during the past two years. Now that we are beginning to need the coverage, we are approaching retirement age and have to consider how to pay for it. (Most people on Medicare do not find it sufficient.) Have you heard or read anything about "medical tourism" - people find it cheaper to fly to Indonesia, India, or elsewhere for competent medical services. There was a TV report about it recently, and I was quite surprised by the costs involved (mch lower than paying for comparable treatment in the US).
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Post by bescheid on Dec 2, 2005 20:06:11 GMT -7
Kai
Thank you for speaking up, you have exactly spoke my mind!
I have intentionally stayed off this thread for I did not want to let my temperament get out of hand with George. He is an honest man, with honest feelings, and what he experienced was true, to him. His impressions are entirely in comparison with the health care system here, that is commensurate with the prevailing conditions, that are only unique with the American system of medicine.
Well, best I leave this alone.
Thank you Kai
Charles
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Post by kaima on Dec 2, 2005 23:46:11 GMT -7
How do your figure the shorter stay is better for the hospital, Nancy? Full occupancy I thought was the trick. Kai I miswrote. I was thinking of the insurance companies (HMOs and the like) and wrote hospital instead. There is no doubt that hospital stays per patient are reduced almost to the point of the absurd in some cases, sometimes going against what the doctor thinks is necessary and endangering the patient. This trend has been driven by the insurance companies, who want to pay as little as possible. Actually, I think the hospitals are suffering, many of the Boston hospitals have merged because they could not maintain financial viability on their own. How did this state of affairs ever come about, anyway? My dentist said the MDs "sold out" long ago (and now regret it) whereas the dentists, being a smaller group, knew they could not survive under the managed care rules and have continued to fight them. The most ridiculous aspect of health care in the US is that it is tied to being employed - as long as you have a job with benefits, you are covered (and of course a good many working people do not have benefits). When you retire, you lose the coverage, and paying for it on your own can be prohibitive. My husband and I have had excellent coverage for all of our working lives, and have not needed it except during the past two years. Now that we are beginning to need the coverage, we are approaching retirement age and have to consider how to pay for it. (Most people on Medicare do not find it sufficient.) Have you heard or read anything about "medical tourism" - people find it cheaper to fly to Indonesia, India, or elsewhere for competent medical services. There was a TV report about it recently, and I was quite surprised by the costs involved (mch lower than paying for comparable treatment in the US). Hi Nancy – Yes, I just recently heard about the work done in India, but I have been aware of the health tourism to Budapest for a few years now. There is quite a bit of information out on the web, in English, on the services you can book in Budapest. With the exorbitant costs of dentistry in Alaska I have considered it myself. Actually, the thought crossed my mind ten years ago when I was still living in Germany and visiting family in the Czech Republic frequently, and visiting Slovakia fairly regularly. With the new economy after the collapse of communism it occurred to me I could go to the former Czechoslovakia for treatment if I chose to. The problem, of course, would be communication. I would have to find treatment where I could effectively communicate in English or German. I went to German doctors and dentists near home in Germany and was quite pleased with the doctor, but then had to try three dentists to find one who was educated in Scotland and gave a high standard of care. The two German dentists I was unhappy with were both women, and they were the roughest dentists I have encountered in my life. The care of the Scot was more along American norms and the fellow would tell you what was up and what he was going to do. The ladies just treated people as the carriers of the newest work place. After locating the services you need the problem you face is assuring yourself of the competency of the doctor you chose. For the family in Czechia it was just as difficult to confirm that a doctor was competent or “the best” as it is here in America. On occasion I have wondered how good a student my doctors might have been… Happily I haven’t needed doctors much beyond standard maintenance. Going off to India, Indonesia or Thailand (better known in Europe for sex tourism) would pose new challenges in becoming comfortable with the care provided. Being familiar with Europe I could easily accept care there, much as I did when I first came to Alaska and maintained a good and a professional relationship with my old dentist in Ohio. Kai
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Post by kaima on Dec 2, 2005 23:50:58 GMT -7
Kai Thank you for speaking up, you have exactly spoke my mind! I have intentionally stayed off this thread for I did not want to let my temperament get out of hand with George. He is an honest man, with honest feelings, and what he experienced was true, to him. His impressions are entirely in comparison with the health care system here, that is commensurate with the prevailing conditions, that are only unique with the American system of medicine. Well, best I leave this alone. Thank you Kai Charles Hello Charles - This is primarily a Polish/European forum, so it is nice to hear what the European experience is and what they have for perspective. I am surrounded by American perspective all the time, so I know it. It is OK, but most interesting is when the Europeans tell us something of what they see in the world. That is what keeps me here on this forum. Well, in addition to that, I feel I can tell a little of the differences from my ten years of living over there. I found it fascinating. Take care - Kai
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Post by bescheid on Dec 3, 2005 11:01:22 GMT -7
Hi Kai
Thank you for your kind reply and explanation. It is most appreciated.
It seems I more or less barged in the conversation with out proper foundation. But now the veil of ignorance, has been replaced by the light of understanding.
( The Gods too, are fond of a joke--Aristotle)
Charles
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