Should Germ. Expellees exhibition open in Germany

[Jaga]

A group representing Germans expelled at the end of World War II from countries once occupied by the Nazis, has unveiled plans for an exhibition in Berlin despite a raging debate on its focus.

The Federation of Displaced People, which has sparked tension with neighboring Poland by calling for the establishment of a center in Berlin to document the fate of "German and European" expellees between 1944 and 1946, said it was planning a three-month museum show from August.

Democratic member of parliament
Federation president Erika Steinbach told reporters that the exhibition would focus on international research on the subject of forced migration and "genocide" using 13 examples from 20th-century history.

www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,2144,1887927,00.html

[Jaga]

see some pictures under this link

[george]

This is a sore spot with me. If they have any bitches they should go to Berlin. They are the ones that got them into this situation. This whole thing reminds me of a child killing its parents and then crying about the fact that they are orphans. Disgusting!!

[pieter]

I voted yes, the grandparents of a half-Duch-half German girlfriend (who weren't nazi's) were
expelled from Polish Silezia. I think we should look at history objectively and fairly,
look at the roots, causes and affects of conflicts and wars.
Many German civilians were mistreted and abused by the Russians (Red army), Poles and Czechs
shortly after the war. Thousands were tortured, wounded and killed in Polish and Czech (Sudeten)
prisons or anti-German lynchings.
But when the Germans open such a centre they should put the situation at that time in a historical
perspective. Not only showing Russian, Polish and Czech crimes against Germans after the war,
but also the tremendous suffering caused by the German Wehrmacht, Polizei-Einzats (vernichtungs)
gruppen and Waffen-SS (and Tötenkopf divisions), who started attrocaties when they entered Poland
in their 1939 invasion of Poland, and the war crimes they commited against Poles, Jews and Gypsies
from 1939 until 1944/45. They should show both sides, and explain that revenge played a role
in the attitude of the Poles, Czechs and Russians. In the same time it should say that the Stalinists
played a role in the maltreatment of Germans and others in that period.
I always regret the death and suffering of survivors of the innocent people, from both sides of
a war. Also anti-nazi's, deserters were victims of the brutal expelling of Germans from Czech
Sudetenland and Polish Silezia. And in the East Poles were driven out of former East-Poland.
History is never black and white, there is always the nuance of the grey area.

[bescheid]

I voted no! My reason of my vote is mulitfold. Europe is a booked filled with chapters of chapters of wars, mass murdering, destroying one another, and for what? There were no actual reason for all of this, other then the usual greed, power seeking, and mainly just plain out right meanness and revenge. And the people suffered and paid and paid.

If Erika Steinbach wishes so strongly for this: Federation of Displaced People. To be, very well and good. It is so spread out as to encompass just about all ethnic groups as to be just watered down to be non-effectual. And for what purpose,if any, other then to reopen some wounds. Possibly to open up another round of a basis for monetary retribution by some past groups.

although, personally, I have agreed very little with the sayings of Herr Edmond Stoiber, I think and feel he hit the penny nail upon the head some time past, inconcerns to the currant agenda of Erika Steinback: "The expulsion decrees are incompatible with European values and the law".

When these times are returned to memory 1944-45 then it will encompass by virtue of history, the actions of not just the people responsible, but, political ramifications from the actions of the Red Army of the then, Soviet Russia.

Let us close for once and all, the last chapter of a period of time that is past. Let the last page fall, and the cover for once and all, close. The dead are dead, let them be so, so the living may live in peace.

Charles

[Jaga]

Charles,

this is a very courageous decision for you to vote "no". Yes, I know that some of these people exaggerate, they treat their suffering as the only one which happened during WW II. Their suffering was a consequence of German government actions. I believe that some of the German minorities (especially Sudetten Germans) were helping Hitler in the starting the war. On the other hand one should not punish civilians for the actions of their goverment so I voted "yes".

[nancy]

I voted"yes" because I think that unless we all learn from history, we are doomed to repeat it.

[bescheid]

Jaga

Well, it would appear that I am once again alone on my thoughts and decision of the exhibition. These were only my personal thoughts and I would only suppose, were (thoughts) based primarily upon my own bias feelings.

As you have brought to light, it is good for others both of maintenance of a historical nature for others. Perhaps this knowledge would indeed help prevent or at least, lessen the likely hood of prejudice taking over the reason of understanding.

My personal knowledge of information, I must admit is very limited to only a very small part of the East Prussian side. It was not good, and seemed to bring out the vast capability that people have in the house of cruelty and meanness to others.

Perhaps so, that this exhibition will work as a clearing house to do good. It is my indeed trust that this will be the case.

Charles

[nancy]

Charles,

You are not alone - someone else voted no - maybe George.

[aadam]

nancy said:

I voted"yes" because I think that unless we all learn from history, we are doomed to repeat it.

I understand that we vote 'for fun' since naturally it is the sole bussines of German nationals what they do in their capital And - having said so - I voted no. I don't think that the whole thing is targeted to enrich the knowledge of the 'average German' about the WWII. So - as I see it - the role of the exhibition as a tool 'to learn history' is questionable. What is unquestionable is that certainly such an exhibition will make the difficult relations with Germanys neighbours to their East even more difficult. Do you know that in Poland all parties, and obviously almost everyone 'in the street' in stronly 'against' it? In fact Jaga is the first Polish national that I know who is pro?

I think that "The expulsion decrees are incompatible with European values and the law" indeed, as long as we are talking about such laws and values of today. The expulsion was deciced by the powers that won the WWII and were taken as a measure to FOREVER destroy occasional German will to conquer Europe. I think that the goal was achieved.
Another point - the responsibilty of a nation for the government. We have to note that Hitler was widely supported by Germans, even after the point they knew Germany was preapring herself for the total war. Threr was no real opposition nor undergroung the way it was in other countries under Hitler... I am very sorry for those innocent Germans that had to leave their homes and I am very sorry that there were only so few innocent...

[pieter]

Although I voted "Yes" as a half-Pole, I think that we should rest the past, respect the present borders, and see as Adaam, the Germans, repsonsably for their own suffering, as part of cause and effect, because they voted the NSDAP in 1933 and continued to support the regime during the thirtees
and fortees.

The expulsion was deciced by the powers that won the WWII and were taken as a measure to FOREVER destroy occasional German will to conquer Europe. I think that the goal was achieved.

Adaam,

I agree with you on this point, but also think that some Russian, Polish and
Czech individuals were guilty of war crimes, even if their behaviour was the result of personal revenge, such as the case of the Polish jew, who survived Auschwitz, and was a sadistic commander of a Polish camp for Germans who
would be expelled. Poland asked for his extradition.
In our family we discussed this, and my mother was against this extradition,
she said that he would not have done what he did if the Germans would not have treated him like they did, and murder his family.
This was a clear case of an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth, many Poles, Czechs, Russians, but also Duch, French and Belgians acted this way.
In the Netherlands people took revenge on collaborator families or girls who had an affair with German soldiers. The Germans disappeared quickly,
Poland had a Germans minority that stayed, from whom some had collaborated with the Nazi's and abused their "superior" position in the third reich. A country that had lost six million people (three million "Catholic" Poles and three million Polish jews), and was tortured and abused did not want this element in it's middle. In the East land was taken away, that land was compensated with German land in the West. The Poles wanted to get rid of the Germans in that area, to find place for the Poles from the East.
It was a time that hundred thousands or maybe even millions of displaced people wandered through Europe, were placed in refugee camps, and
suffered fro many years longer than they suddered form the Nazi- en Sovjet
Death camps. The Germans were not the only ones that suffered shortly after the war. My irritation about the Heimat vertriebenenvereins and some young Germans I spoke is that they isolate the case of German suffering and speak as if suddenly the Germans were done great harm, and sometimes speak of the orderly, clean and sophisticated Sudentenland and Silezia under the Germans, and now see what those "Slavic" Czechs and Poles have made a poor mess of it. The German superiority is still present in these comments. And it is very hard to speak with German youngsters about German guilt, because they always had a good family, and it was the government and not the people who did it and etc.
In my personal life the Second world war is far behind me, because I am not of that generation. But it always comes back in discussions with old family members, in the news, even in discussions of young people.
For long time I was to deep in that time, now I want to look at the present
and the future, with the knowledge of the past in the back of my mind.
This weekend I saw Munich and Jarhead, terrorism and war is the problem
today. I wonder if I will experiance a world war in my lifetime.

Pieter

[nancy]

Of course I only know about this exhibit from the discussion here, so I appreciate Aadam's comments.

The fact that it is causing such tensions in Poland suggests that the focus will be only on Germans who were displaced, rather than any broader picture of the problems suffered by others who were forced to move after the war. If the presentation is that only German nationals suffered from displacement, then I change my vote.

Below is a repeat of a post I made in the Genealogy section (about a month ago) about a website devoted to the Sudety mountain area:


This website includes a wonderful collection of interviews with mountain people from all over the world, including a section of interviews with Polish people who were relocated into the area of the Sudety mountains after WW2.

The interviews on this site have been gathered by the Oral Testimony Programme of the Panos Institute in partnership with local organizations.

You have to register to read the detailed interviews, but the stories are a fascinating glimpse into history.

www.mountainvoices.org/poland.asp

quote:
Klodzko Valley, in Sudety mountains, southwest Poland, was directly effected by what has been called one of the greatest population shifts in European history. Once part of Germany, the region was within the Western territories "recovered" for Poland from Germany after the Second World War (1939-45). The redrawn national boundaries involved many Germans, such as those in the Klodzko Valley, being expelled across the new Polish border to the west. In turn, Poles from Poland's eastern provinces settled in the towns, villages and farms vacated by the Germans. These Poles were "sent" there by the Russian authorities from their own homelands in the Eastern territories (now Ukraine and Byelorussia) which Russia in turn had "recovered" from Poland. (In effect, Poland's post-war borders took a great shift westwards.) Many of these narrators had been sent to Siberia during the war, and there are powerful descriptions of camp survival, as well as of pre-war rural life in the fertile but undeveloped "flatlands" of the east.

These new Polish settlers were quite unfamiliar with mountain terrain, and many found it threatening and alien. There were virtually no social ties between the settlers, and for nearly 50 years many existed in a state of limbo, believing their situation to be "temporary". Indeed, unlike many culturally rich and distinctive mountain groups, these settlers were not united by any commonly held tradition, folklore, songs or other forms of cultural expression. Interviews with different generations illustrate how, for some, a sense of identity with the location has only gradually developed. This collection also contains stories from some of the few Germans who stayed on in the Valley after 1946, having become "outsiders" in their old environment.

[bescheid]

I think perhaps that most Americans are unaware of the extent of the cruility demostrated by many countries during the war and shortly after. War crimes and post war crimes. And as this should be, for what reason is there?

The Soviet Russians were some of the worst emaginable of just meaness and cruility, they wanted their revenge and took it.

History is written by the victors. and as such, much is not, nor will be written, other then in European books(German) I am not so sure it would be written in Polisch books and for sure, not in the Russian books.

The OstPrussian: Some of the cruility I have for mentioned was the war time (1945) refugee lines back to Germany to Kiel and hopefully, by ships to Norway and Sweden, hopefully better to Sweden.

This was winter season, often -0C dealing with refugees of children old men and women of all ages wearing what ever they cauld manage, and if fortunant, a hand kart for thier belongings. Motor fuel (petrol/diesel) was in short supply to nothing for Panzer protection. In the common routes to Germany, the Panzer units were spread out along a 30 k/m range parked stationary for refugee protection.

The Russian Soviets would full throtel thier tank units with cannon turants pre-aimed, and fire cannon shells into the refugee columes, skid turn and accelerate as qucikly to escape the longer reach Panzer cannons.

This went on unitll either all ammunition was expended by the stationary Panzer, or they were over taken by the Soviet military advancement.

At this time (1945), three ships, Wilhelm Gustoff, Steuden and the Goya. Were in the Baltic (Östsee) with the Battle ship: Prinz Eugen as protection. Once the Prinz Eugen run out of ammunition and low on fuel, it returned to Copenhagen. Once gone, the Russian submarines sank all three transport ships with one as a plainly marked hospital ship. All loaded with a mix of Kriegmarine personnel and the OstPrussian refugees.

The war was close to over, those Soviet submarine capitans must have known this, but wanted those sinkings to be credited to them.

www.nicholashaase.com/ostpreussen.asp

The above is an excellent url of Ostprussion. But, be for warned, it is explisite. If you choose to read it, fine, but if you choose explore it, you may not like what you read.

I personally do not care for this Nicholas Haase and his methods, but, he is good and cares not a wit of common opinion, and no, he is not a Nazi.

In as much to prewar Germany and Adolf Hitler. Yes, contrary to American history and opinion. He was very well liked by the German public. For why? Well, he defied the known world and got the industry going, he made the industry work, he removed the word," unemployed". Every working man, worked. He created through various programmes such as the KDF (Kraft durch Freude)(strength through joy), BDM (League of Geman girls) Gloube und Schönheit (Faith and Beauty).

These are only a small number of the actual programmes for the people. It mattered not of status in life or family money, rich or poor, even very poor, all were equal and with equal access to these programmes.

As I was reluctant to continue this thread, my reasoning as with the exhibition is this: once you open up the doors of history that should be concluded, do not be suprised or shocked at what you will unearth.

The Polisch were not with out a little dirt under the finger nails with the Bromberg Blutsonntag (Bromberg Bloody Sunday) that was an atrocity of revenge against German civilians of 15.000 population. The dead was counted as 1.100 in that action by Polisch troopen of the 15th Infantry Division. This was later investigated by investigators of the Wehrmacht Office. The same office of investigation into the Katyn massicare.

There is a German proverb as goes: Wer A sagt, muss auch B sagen (If you say A, you must say B s well) or in Plattdeutsche: De A seggt, mut ok B seggen!

Charles

[aadam]

bescheid said:

I think perhaps that most Americans are unaware of the extent of the cruility demostrated by many countries during the war and shortly after. War crimes and post war crimes.

I don’t think it is proper or factually justified to use the generalisation ‘cruelty of many countries during the war and shortly after, war crimes and postwar crimes’.

The were German cruelties, atrocities and crimes during the war and shortly after, meticolously planned, methodically carried out by German state and military institutions, occasionaly aided by civilian Germans cruelty who had a chance to personally meet the representants of what they have then called ‘untermensch’ (undermen) – Jews and Poles. And later- other Slavs, including their previous friends and collaborators - the Russians. These have resulted in the loss of some 45 000 000 – 50 000 000 deaths (including the soldiers) during the course of WWII.

And on the other hand there were occasional cruelties or crimes shortly after the war, perpetrated by individual Polish (both Jewish and Christian) - and other nationalities -civilians and soldiers, which were never planned nor supported by Polish governement or society. This same attitude characterizes the actions of Russians after the Potsdam Conference during which the transfer of German nationals from Western Poland into Germany was decided.. They shouldn’t have happend, we should have all, like most of us did, behave in a decent manner until the end.

It is however - in my eyes – unproper to discuss what was happening after the war without, every little time, reminding what were the reasons of the phenomena taking place. So, consequently, please note that in 1939 the Germans received an order from their beloved chief – Hitler "to send to death mercilessly and without compassion, men, women, and children of Polish race and language". And here’s a link which will graphically remind us what happened next. Before you enter, please note that the photogrames presented there are extremely disturbing
www.parascope.com/gallery/galleryitems/holocaust/

The Soviet Russians were some of the worst emaginable of just meaness and cruility, they wanted their revenge and took it.

I don’t know what criteria are used for such a comparison – whicj cruelty was worst. It is true that during the war Russians often acted mercilessly towards all ciivilians they thought to be German, but the reason was not just mean revenge. They were inctructed do so, probably since the German population - the sons and daughters of the ‘philosophical nation’ as Germans liked to call themselves - has so widely supported the barbrian atrocities, the Russians autorities (read: Stalin) has decided to do so as a method to ‘teach them a lesson’.But that was long before a category of a ‘German expellee’ emerged. Please note that Germany of today highly esteems Russia, which makes many Russians think that the lesson served well.

This was winter season,

The Russian Soviets would full throtel thier tank units with cannon turants pre-aimed.

At this time (1945), three ships, Wilhelm Gustoff, Steuden and the Goya. Were in the Baltic

The acts of war you are reffering to, which took place during the German flee from Northern and Western Poland are really very sad and shouldn’t have happen in mankind history at all. However, please note that you are talking about a period when the German total war was still underway. You are talking about winter 1944/45 and The Potsdam Conference – during which the transfer of Germans into modern Germany was decided - took place in July/August 1945. The ship Wilhelm Gustloff – which has on board many German refugees (not expelees, the former chose to leavem the latter had to leave, but many many months/years later) was sunk in January 1945 The ships Steuben and Goya shortly afterwards. I am not saying that such actions should take place, I am just reminding everyone that the ‘total war’ incited by Germany was still underway. And the whole subject of discussoin is about the the „German Expellees exhibition”. Once again: the transfer of Germans was decided after the war, in Potsdam. In winter 1945 there were no such a category „german expelees” but just ‘ German fugitives. BTW – they were in their mass left to themselves, run away in disorder, and many were killed by German airforce which shoot at the colums of people indifferently (since 1939...)








East Prussia by

Nicholas Haase and his methods,

The site you have provided a link to ommits the Prussia's transformation into a dominant and aggressive state (whose first prey were more democratically oriented, peacful, art-loving parts of Germany of today). What is more the author of th site you are directing us to uses a term „Prussian Holocaust” in the candalous meaning, as if it were Prussia which where holocausted. In Europe such an attitude is called revisionism, and in several countries it is prosecuted (Germany among them).

Please not that the term Prussian Holocaust in Europe means something quite different. It was first used in the prophetic word of a British nobleman Arthur Evans in a letter to The Times. Here I cite the background and details:

„Then the First World War broke out. German troops marched into Leuven, which was shortly before declared an open city. On the 25th of august, the Belgian army launched a counterattack. The Belgian army broke through the German defence lines at certain points, and pushed them back towards Leuven. There anxious civilians and German soldiers listened to the thundering gunfire. In the evening, when the battle was over, German troops marched back into Leuven. And then disaster happened. The German soldiers in Leuven who had been waiting for their comrades to return from the battlefield, mistook them for Belgian soldiers and commenced firing. Several German soldiers were killed or wounded. As soon as they realised what really happened, they falsely accused the civilians of Leuven of having cowardly shot German soldiers. Revenge was swift and brutal. During the next days hundreds of civilians were murdered or deported, more than a thousand houses and public buildings were destroyed. Our university library unfortunately went up in flames. Not one book or manuscript survived the inferno.

The destruction of Leuven and especially its library provoked an international scandal. Amongst many others Sir Arthur Evans protested in a letter to The Times:


'Sir, may I be allowed to voice the horror and profound indignation at the Prussian holocaust of Louvain. (…) The holocaust of Louvain should at least have the effect of electrifying all the more intellectual elements of our country with a new vigour of determination to overthrow the ruthless regime of blood and iron imposed by Prussian arrogance on 20th century Europe.' (The Times, september 1st , 1914).”

In as much to prewar Germany and Adolf Hitler. Yes, contrary to American history and opinion. He was very well liked by the German public. For why? Well, he defied the known world and got the industry going, he made the industry work, he removed the word," unemployed"..

Exactly! They were now producing arms and munitions and preparing themselves to live inh the newly acquired Lebensraum in Eatern Europe.

The Polisch were not with out a little dirt under the finger nails with the Bromberg Blutsonntag (Bromberg Bloody Sunday)

It is the third time you misspell the nationality. Please note that it should be spelled Polish.
As to the Bloody Sunday in Bydgoszcz. First – it took place in September 1939, and has no connection with the tranfer of German nationals from Western Poland to modern Germany after its defeat. What is more the case of Bydgoszcz Bloody Sunday is not as straightforward as you present. Here a Wikipedia fragment:
The most controversial of the cases was that of Bydgoszcz on September 3, 1939. Polish witnesses testified that early that day as the Polish Army was withdrawing through Bydgoszcz, it was attacked by members of the German fifth column. Shooting at soldiers and civilians from roofs and church towers was claimed by these Polish witnesses. The German historian Hugo Rasmus disagrees, however, and attributes this claim to the confusion and the disorganized state of the Polish paramilitary forces present.
Polish soldiers assumed that German saboteurs were shooting at them and searched the houses. In the next few hours a (disputed) number of local ethnic Germans were executed, most of them probably innocent of any involvement. But the scale of the event is controversial. De Zayas estimates it as 2,000. Hugo Rasmus compared Bydgoszcz address books and data for the 1939 with Nazi lists of supposed victims and found 358 identifiable people who died that day in Bydgoszcz. Most of them were women and children. W³odzimierz Jastrzêbski, a Polish historian who initially doubted this estimated scale of the event, later backed the Hugo Rasmus' number, believing that local Polish administration was unable to control the mob and only later sanctioned what was in fact lynch.. Jastrzêbski himself, however, had a poor reputation among other Polish historians, as a communist propaganda supporter, which undermined his credibility.
More about Claims of Polish atrocities against Germans:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bromberg_Bloody_Sunday


And more about World War II atrocities in Poland
www.absoluteastronomy.com/reference/world_war_ii_atrocities_in_poland1

And finally, an important hallmark of the idea of exhibition to commemorate the suffering (unquestioned) of transferred Germans. The president of the Federation of Displaced People that Jaga has cited and started this thread with is Erika Steinbach. She was born near a Polish sea-port Gdynia , duribg the WWII as the child of a Wehrmacht officer stationed there as part of the German occupation forces...



If you say A, you must say B s well



P.S. Pieter, , Nancy and others I am sorry I don’t have enough time to respond to many interesting subjects – my time’s up here.

[bescheid]

Aadam

You do indeed have an excellent eye for detail. Thank you for detailing my various mistakes in spelling, actually it was some what frustrating on my part as the spell check system was out of service. When pressed, I do tend to revert to spelling I know.

It was not surprising to me of your excellent research you have presented, I was expecting primarily of your reply and counting upon it. You know, I know, what occurred in those war years. It is the details that become lost with time and generations.

It is not to us to impress our selves with what we know, we both already know. But, it is to others that are not aware of many of those events, and most importantly, that there will not ever be a repeat of those times and the reason.

I realize that you and my self are on separate sides, separated by time/distance and nationality, but we do share some very important attributes, and more importantly, we share a common learned language of English. We are able to discuss a very close to the bone topic such as this, in a rational unemotional manner that is constructive, and informative.

I realize the implications of this topic on a Polish forum and try to avoid such discussions, and as such, have failed by not adhering to my own caution.

Speaking only for my self. On one side of the coin, I am American. This country has been good to me, and I have worked faithfully at my assigned work with honesty and diligently. I have enjoyed privileges not common to other people (American) in free university training and numerous specialized schools under FBI supervision and direction. In return, I was required to serve at their discretion. It was an equitable exchange.

On the other side of the coin, my employers have my files and records. All those could have been used for a legal form of black mail, and were not. I am of German blood and as such, my opinions and thought patterns are such. I know this, and try to temper my written thoughts to be compatible with both times and audience. For no matter my location, I am still a visitor and as such, this is to be expected.

We know and recognize, that our world is different now, to day is today. The past is past, thank goodness for that in self is a blessing.

My story is shared by about a zillion other stories, so it is not special, nor am I. The differences though, is this, I was very very fortunate in my life much more then I deserve so. Plus, being very carefull! It is my true trust that you are who you say you are.

Charles