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Post by Jaga on Mar 26, 2006 9:33:53 GMT -7
Here are resources (from Richard Poremski) [The week's big issue: Immigration.] > >'Guest Workers' Won't Work >A Path to Permanent Citizenship Would Benefit Everyone >By Tamar Jacoby, senior fellow at the Manhattan Institute >http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/03/24/AR2006032401719. >html >[All WashPost links must end with .html on the same line as http] > >The Facts: Congress on Immigration >http://blogs.washingtonpost.com/thedebate/2006/03/congress_on_imm.html > >The Facts: Immigration Info and Stats >The Migration Information Source ... is a project of the Migration Policy >Institute, a non-partisan, non-ideological think tank devoted to studying >migration trends around the world. >http://blogs.washingtonpost.com/thedebate/2006/03/immigrationfact.html > >The Paranoid Fringe of the Immigration Debate >http://blogs.washingtonpost.com/thedebate/2006/03/the_fringe.html > >Glossary | The Un-Citizens >Kiss Me, I'm Illegal >http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/26/weekinreview/26vitello.ART.html > >Immigration Bill Sparks Protests, Bush Plea >By REUTERS >http://www.nytimes.com/reuters/politics/politics-usa-immigration.html > >More on this issue on many major news sites. >See also: www.immigrationreformnow.org/ |
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Post by kaima on Mar 26, 2006 10:06:51 GMT -7
I had better take advantage of having the majority opinion while I have the chance! (100% in agreement with me!)
We should set up an orderly program where people can easily come and go to work in America.
Then we should enforce it, including a wall if we need it. What the heck, we are afraid of the world as the commies were, so let's lift the design of the Berlin Wall and get to work on security!
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Post by bescheid on Mar 26, 2006 12:05:12 GMT -7
Well, I voted: I have a different opinion. I realize that my vote is in contrast to that of the popular (and most likely correct) thoughts and opinions of others. Also do I realize the drain on the US social welfare and medical system that these illegal immigrants impose on the American system.
I also realize there is at present, no logical humane means to address this problem short of resorting to inhumane manners of discouragement of illegal crossings and illegal residence on the American side.
But, also do I realize a system of government and living conditions that these people are escaping from. For the most part, these are family people that have the same aspirations, needs and requirements of most people. They have children to raise and for the most part, are very family oriented.
They are in fact, the new Americans. They keep them selves intact within the safety net of their families and those of their own kind. For the most part, they are hard workers and work for what ever is available for earnings, that is within their reach. And many will do work that American white citizens will not do. Even under local government threat.
It would be my guess: That this is an opportunity for America. People are an asset, why not provide the tools of education and opportunity to these people. Through them, renew a stronger America with the resolve to over come and prosper. For that is exactly what these illegal immigrants are facing and over coming.
Logically, these is exactly what is happing at present. An event that it slowly evolving and too close to be recognized for that what it is.
The new Americans
Charles
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Post by rdywenur on Mar 26, 2006 12:31:19 GMT -7
Charles, I don't think we are disputing them coming here for opportunity. That's how we all got here. It is the way they are coming here...illegally. America is not the dumping ground for the whole world. We can bearly take care of our own here. So should we have a poorer quality of life to accomodate these people. They won't even learn the language yet they wish to harvest the Gold.
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Post by bescheid on Mar 26, 2006 15:44:30 GMT -7
Chris
Thank you for your thoughts and feelings. What you are saying, is true and valid, and your fears are mirrored by many I have over heard in casual conversations. Also do I hold the similar thoughts.
To be truthful on the subject, I am just as much in the dark as most.
I will not muddy up the stream with stories of my trips in to Mexico, but, to stick with the business at hand.
There are a number of cures that are at option for the American government to take. But, many of these options are not nice, and would in self, regulate the American government (people) no better then the corruptions that abound in the Mexican Government.
To more effectively control a border, is to make it a very dangerous place to even think of. Kai introduced a very good method of border control. That of construction of another Adrian's wall, the entire length of the American south border. Nothing crosses, nothing enters, no visitors, no Visa, no border crossings what so ever.
With the Adrian's wall, the ground must be protected 600 meters on either side of the wall, with active anti personal mines,and explosives. Triggered by seismic and pressure activations. Razer wire and explosive ditch's. All razer wire electrically wired to 220 volts.
Guard towers (flake towers) located every 3000 meters. Armed with machine guns that are sighted in to over lap 2/3rds of opposite tower contact.
All violators caught, immediately shot on location, buried in common ditch where shot.
Would this be what the Americans want?
I would not think so, for it is just repugnant to even approache such a solution.
What is the solution of now, today, for the next day? What are we to do? As people, we have little to no power of say so, it is not our dicision of who stays, who goes. We as people just see what is occuring and live with it. Not an admirable stance I must admit, but, it is realistic.
Charles
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Post by kaima on Mar 26, 2006 16:23:20 GMT -7
It is interesting to note the priorities of citizens of America. We had half a million people protest that we should not be too rough on illegal immigrants, but we ahve virtually NO protest against a war that is far more harmful to our country, and ostensibly is very unpopular.
I suppose we could pull out of Iraq and bomb the heck out of the Mexican border....
Kai
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Post by bescheid on Mar 27, 2006 12:20:20 GMT -7
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
{It is interesting to note the priorities of citizens of America. We had half a million people protest that we should not be too rough on illegal immigrants, but we have virtually NO protest against a war that is far more harmful to our country, and ostensibly is very unpopular}
Kai
Yes, how so true, how so true...I think there were some voices against this war in Iraq, but, some what that of a whisper. With the big fellows in Bush and company, who would dare stand a chance of an argument with those guys!
I think some place, some where, I remember from long ago, far far away this saying:
Might makes right!
I tend to believe that experience is not the better part of valor. But, long life makes the memory more enjoyable.
Charles
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Post by marmota on Mar 29, 2006 11:11:14 GMT -7
These poor people are driven by the same instinct that brought us all here. The instinct that capitalism is better for the poor. The only difference is that they have no education nor means to come legally. As a beacon of liberty, we should respect people's sense of freedom regardless of their origin and means.
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Post by rdywenur on Mar 29, 2006 15:54:30 GMT -7
So how did you get here. Did you sneak into the country or did you get here with a Visa and legal papers. My mother was poor and she had no education. She did not sneak in.
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nancy
European
Posts: 2,144
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Post by nancy on Mar 29, 2006 19:14:11 GMT -7
It is interesting to note the priorities of citizens of America. We had half a million people protest that we should not be too rough on illegal immigrants, but we ahve virtually NO protest against a war that is far more harmful to our country, and ostensibly is very unpopular. Do you think that there is any feeling that the Iraq war and GW are so far beyond our grass roots control that no one even tries? Or is it because the local illegal immigrant populations are more passionate and vocal? (I am convinced that those who think the II should have "rights" are all II themselves.) |
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Post by kaima on Mar 29, 2006 22:22:26 GMT -7
Nancy,
I suspect there is a hangover from Vietnam and people are afraid that protesting the war will appear unpatriotic. Besides, it has not yet affected too many families, and if we get another 2500 dead and anotehr 20,000 casualties, it will be a small war in blood and pretty big on treasure and mortgaged (limiting our) future. Then we will feel it. Yes, I agree with your ideas as well.
Charles,
I suspect it is a bit of fear of big brother as well. That is a shame, it speaks of cowardice. But then we have to factor in the fear Bush generated. Loosing 3000 lives in the Twin Towers was not that great a loss that we should so readily give up our freedoms. As far as I care, we can loose 2000 civilians a year domestically and that is worth keeping our freedom - Freedom is not Free. We should tell Big Brother Bush to go to h*** and leave us our freedoms, we will happiliy pay the price!
Marmota,
I don't believe there is any ***The instinct that capitalism is better for the poor. *** that draws people to America. It is more dollars per hour worked. If the Soviet Union had offered that, people would have flocked to it and sworn by it. People want to live better, and poverty at home is a great driving force to move to greener pastures. What do you find instinctive about capitalism, and how is ours more attractive than capitalism in poorer countries, other than wages paid?
Kai
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Post by bescheid on Mar 30, 2006 11:31:19 GMT -7
kai
I think perhaps,you very well have an excellent grasp of the currant and present known situation in respect to: Cause and Effect/public fear and personal safety.
The Ivory Tower heavy hitters in Washington are very much aware of their currant situation in as much to public social control. Those folks have at their means, a very well organized mechanism for effectively dealing and defeating most any grass roots organization that may or possibly present a threat, actual or implied against the wishes of Busch and company, for what ever reason.
The American past in,as you had mentioned, from experiences with the Vietnam protest marches and the Martin Luther freedom protest events of the past. Have formed the class room of training and developing of the Federal mechanisms now in place. These mechanisms would now mainly only come into effect as the danger/situation presents its self against a Federal Building/facility of national interest/public protection in the case of loss of local control.
Primarily it is initially a force to force ratio. Like force is met by like force.
It is an unfortunate situation of fact, that most marches are initially conceived as a grass roots protest to provide to government, local/federal, the wishes and will of the public in the most effective manner that is within the means of people.
The situation though, is very very often taken over by professionals trained and sourced (financially) by an out side source to use these people for their own reasons for what ever is at option. In other words, the individual has very little bargaining power in presence or deed. But, in numbers, the individual has power of presence and protection in numbers. But, not the training to organize/finance a large operation of this nature. So they often will obtain the services of those folks who do. The professionals.
Now then well and good, up to this point in time. But then, the direction of the formally good protest march, gains power in numbers that gradually change in direction, and that is in the nature of destruction of the symbols of federal control (federal court houses,buildings any federal facility) implied or actual events. The Federal mechanisms of protection being previously arranged, are placed into motion.
The event is file photographed and complete dossier completed with follow up information of cause and effect/location of event/ photographed evidence of all leadership provided/researched individual information of known families, work, past histories (criminal records/police record files) written description of the event.
Then once the event has been consummated, if deemed necessary, people as individuals are either placed into custody or placed under further continued tracking surveillance.
All social disruptions of a larger magnitude, are file photographed for later analysis. These will range from all areas of the USA and selected foreign countries. The photographs are analyzed and key individuals identified. Once the analysis is completed and the key individuals are identified. It is very interesting the various locations those key individuals have participated in a protest march and not always for the same reason.
As Kai has indicated, freedom is not with out cost. For there are two kinds of freedom:
The Freedom from: The state will decide your choice
The Freedom to: personal choice
You take your choice and take your chances.
Personally, I will always take the rocky road for:
Freedom to: personal choice
Charles
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