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Post by Jaga on Apr 1, 2006 16:53:01 GMT -7
If somebody has the illegal job - does it mean that he/she commits a sin?
The decalog talks about not to do a harm to the neighbor or anybody else but it does not say that people have to obey all laws.
Is disobeying the laws a sin? What if a law is stupid? There are sometimes strange laws...
I believe there is a difference between the breaking a law established by people and committing a real crime.
What do you think?
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Post by bescheid on Apr 1, 2006 20:46:06 GMT -7
I was not sure of what to vote, so if not sure, then no action.
But, I think there are two different laws that should be considered:
God's law: that of law given by God to be obeyed, even
in difference to that of man's law.
Mans law: Freely given for man to use, this in a manner
of governance of him self. (term man used as
meaning people)
I was compelled, and in difference to my better judgment to at least place a response to this question. But, beyond this as a meaningful response. The root of the question is to close to the skin for elaboration.
I do hold a high interest as to the response of others.
Charles
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Post by Jaga on Apr 2, 2006 9:26:32 GMT -7
Charles,
interesting analysis. I think the conflict between God's laws and Man's law was even presented in the antic Greek play - Antygona.
I do not have one strong opinion about immigration. I do not support clearly one side I just do not know exactly what to think about it....
I know the Polish family in Boise. He is a wall painter, a really good one. They came here legally after Martial Law because of Solidarity connections.
Now, the painter has a harder time to find a job because the illegal immigrant take over his job and can do the same for much less money!
He has a wife and three kids, really a difficult situation. They do not have a health insurance. He cannot even afford the insurance for himslef which prevents him from some type of jobs (painting the high ceilings etc).
They basically live from the credit cards debt
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Post by kaima on Apr 2, 2006 9:53:14 GMT -7
Ah, God's Law; it must be obeyed. Down to the point of killing someone who abandons the true farith. So with 20,000,000 interpretations of the bible and 3x as many of the Koran, + the collection of all other faiths, we sure have a variety of God's Law!
Well, we are back to the point where people are discussing how many angels are dancing on the head of a pin (today discussing what the Bible means in every coffeehouse and gas station), so we might as well advance to the next step and impose religious law and step back into the Dark Ages. It should be fun to hack at the neighbor every twenty years and sign up for Crusades once again!
Well, I guess another post is in order to address "Is illegal immigrant a criminalist ?"
Kai
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Post by kaima on Apr 2, 2006 9:59:21 GMT -7
If they get caught, they are criminal. The cops don't care what is right or wrong, they are there to enforce the law, and exercising your right of free speech is criminal if they so choose to interpret the laws, like wearing a t shirt with words in congress. So if your family is starviing and you steal a loaf of bread to feed them, you are criminal - if you are caught.
So the illegal immigrant is, by definition, criminal.
Kai
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Bob S
European
Rainbow Bear
Posts: 2,052
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Post by Bob S on Apr 2, 2006 12:44:33 GMT -7
 Jaga. The operative word here is ILLEGAL. I would have voted for both options if I could. There is no such thing as an illegal job except for Murder, Bank Robbery or one of the myriad of other occupations that could be considered illegal. The people who have entered this country illegaly have already broken the law of the land by entering the country illegally. On the moral side: they have jumped ahead of those others who followed all the rules and jumbed through all the hoops to gain entrance thereby depriving those people of their opportunity. "Render Unto Ceaser The Things That Are Ceaser's and to God, The Things That Are God's". I doubt if there is any sympathy toward persons who enter Mexico or any other country in the world illegally. Perhaps we could greet those illegals with sympathy and understanding by applying the same kind of treatment that their countries show toward illegals. Mexico does not own the United States no more than Spain or France own Mexico. By their own definations, I or anyone else should have the right to enter Mexico illegally and have the right to break any of their laws that are not convenient. I and anyone else that cares to, should be able to enter Poland illegally and demand that all Poles speak American and break any laws that are not convenient, with no fear of consequences. America and Americans welcome all people who migrate to this country and celebrate the diversity that adds to our culture. 
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Post by justjohn on Apr 2, 2006 16:31:36 GMT -7
Bob,
Well said !!!!!!
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Post by rdywenur on Apr 2, 2006 18:16:10 GMT -7
Since when did Illegal have a different meaning. It means wrong so therefore the answer is it is criminal. You can twist it around to interpret it to your own convenience but it is still the same answer no matter how you try to justify it in this case.
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Yanc
Full Pole
Posts: 337
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Post by Yanc on Apr 2, 2006 23:48:41 GMT -7
Chris
ILLEGAL not always means WRONG.
Let's say, in Poland, in communist regime there were many things that were illegal, but you can't consider it wrong, for example free of speech, demonstrations, all the attributes of free world were banned and considered illegeal. But obviously they are neither wrong or illegal now. And what about Poland in WW2. It was illegal to help polish underground, to hide and help Jews, but will you say it was wrong? Definitely NOT.
Yanc
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Post by rdywenur on Apr 3, 2006 3:00:24 GMT -7
Yanc....I fully understand the question. My answer still is the same. They are breaking the law and second I don't want them here in this country. Maybe we should send them to Poland and then when can ask you that question and see how you will respond then after they have been there and you will be speaking Spanish. Then see how you like it when you become the second class citizen in your own country.
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Yanc
Full Pole
Posts: 337
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Post by Yanc on Apr 3, 2006 3:23:15 GMT -7
Chris
We already have the problem here, illegals from the east come to Poland for work, just as mexicans to US. Scale of a problem is not as big as in US, but still persist.
And, I still think that not everything illegal is wrong.
Yanc
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Post by varsovian on Apr 3, 2006 7:43:56 GMT -7
Of course illegal doesn't equate to wrong in all instances - elementary logic tells you that.
"Illegal immigrants" is too wide a term. I'm in Poland illegally in that the technicalities of living here are such that I need to have a "permanent address" in the UK, which I don't.
Various officials have told me it doesn't matter - just put down your last address and to hell with it because the law's an ass (and if you even think about deleting that word for rudeness US style ... it's a set British phrase!!).
Hence, technically I am illegal.
The UK is an equally superb example of law gone crazy - be an unskilled Kosovar with no English, claim asylum and you've got a great chance of staying permanently and getting undeclared work. That's OK.
God help you though if you're an Australian wanting to teach maths in a state-financed school - you're public enemy number 1.
The UK should declare a massive amnesty then pull up the drawbridge to unskilled, non-EU workers.
I don't know what my attitude will be when Romania joins the EU... watchful waiting as to what is legal and wrong perhaps?
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Post by bescheid on Apr 3, 2006 14:42:01 GMT -7
I believe I understand what Chris is meaning in terms of Illegal immigrants entering into the United States on the sly without sanctions of going through the Department of Immigration. It is a case by case situation,as each situation is different.
If the people involved, do so, with the knowledge that they are breaking a law, in this case, immigration law. Then they are certainly guilty of the crime by their physical presence with out any legal documentation of their status within the confines of the United States. And as such, should as any law breaker person, face the prospect of prosecution.
And as many do not have the legal documents to support them being in the USA, their employers are reluctant to pay them out of a standard payroll. For with out a Sociolsecurity number for proper deductions, the employer would leave a paper trail leading back to his payroll office.
Those illegals with the money to purchase a fake social security number may do so. Although, as these numbers are picked out of random, the illegal could very well have any persons social security number. And so, they would pay into that persons account, or, take out of that same person account as a benefit (early retirement, disability payments, and so on) Then, at a similar or later date, the legal owner of that social security number, makes application for benefits, then the stuff hits the fan with the Social Security agency.
Just being in the US is not just confined to taking up space and work, it is about the quality of life pertaining to support resources, and the support of fraudulent businesses/crime.
Charles
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franek80
Cosmopolitan
From Sea To Shining Sea
Posts: 875
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Post by franek80 on Apr 3, 2006 14:51:42 GMT -7
Allow me to elaborate on conditions from illegals in Florida.. My state. Our first problem was with Cubans..
Castro emtied his jail cells and sent them here in the Mario boatlift.. At one time Miami was one of the favorite vacation spots in America.. Now you take your life in your own hands by visiting Miami today.
Then there was the illigal immigration from the bahamas and Jamaica. These people have no skills and they our tax burden and insuarace rates by getting free medical attention that they never pay for.. Our medical insurances have sky rocketed.. They never paid a penny is SS taxes but yet they benefit from it.
After the hurricane Charlie we were in bad shape.. our homes were in need of repair and the local contractors would not answer the phone..There was a great influx of Mexicans that came to our rescue.. They were the hardest working people that ever saw.. I am sutre that they were exploited by our local contractors.. But my vote is NO.. Let them go elsewhere
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Post by Jaga on Apr 7, 2006 21:18:49 GMT -7
Of course illegal doesn't equate to wrong in all instances - elementary logic tells you that. "Illegal immigrants" is too wide a term. I'm in Poland illegally in that the technicalities of living here are such that I need to have a "permanent address" in the UK, which I don't. Strange rules, I agree. In Russia one can be imprisonedas a foreigner while travelling because if you are more than three days in one town you should tell authorities about it. In Poland there was a similar rule, even if the aunt from a different town visitied us - she should tell authorities about it. But this was one of the laws that nobody really obeyed. |
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Jaga. The operative word here is ILLEGAL. I would have voted for both options if I could. There is no such thing as an illegal job except for Murder, Bank Robbery or one of the myriad of other occupations that could be considered illegal. The people who have entered this country illegaly have already broken the law of the land by entering the country illegally. On the moral side: they have jumped ahead of those others who followed all the rules and jumbed through all the hoops to gain entrance thereby depriving those people of their opportunity.
