piwo
Citizen of the World
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Posts: 1,189
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Post by piwo on Jan 2, 2008 17:02:18 GMT -7
I don't want to hijack this thread so perhaps we should take this to PM's or email. I've searched the LOT web site for flights in April, May and June, traveling on the cheapest day to travel during the weak. (wed, thursday)... April is $909 with taxes, May $1,019 with taxes and June 1,199 with taxes. I'd certainly be interested in seeing what site you are accessing to find the fares. I also respectfully disagree as to the beginning month of the travel season: it's May. I've found amazing prices for airfare from Mid October through April, then it's start melting the jewelry to pay for a ticket. Please share the site where you can get $700 USD fare to Poland year round. My daughter wants to go back for a graduation present and I'd love to oblige. I anxiously await your reply/PM...
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kanga
Freshman Pole
Posts: 39
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Post by kanga on Jan 2, 2008 18:33:06 GMT -7
To those who responded to my last comments, thank you, I think my comments have been mis-understood... Poland has a richness about it which money cannot buy. The comments I made have to be taken into context.. It was a reflection of how things have changed, lets not forget the nightmare years under communism, the arrogance of officials ie police, customs and public servants, corruption in every area of Polish life.. For those who have seen these things its hard to imagine that this has changed, undoubtedly it has to some degree. I repeat that Poland is still not a sought after tourist location and may never be, it will however be a attraction to people who have Polish blood. Have the people changed? Yes.. One thing for certain the young have zeroed in on materialism and Poland is heading towards a more American mentality.
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piwo
Citizen of the World
Co Słychać?
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Post by piwo on Jan 4, 2008 7:56:43 GMT -7
One thing for certain the young have zeroed in on materialism and Poland is heading towards a more American mentality. An American Mentality? A convenient notion, but I can't say I agree with that exactly. Is it a mentality shared by many if not a majority of Americans, well yes. As the first superpower to realize widespread (or at least large portions of its population) affluence beginning in the late 1950’s and 1960’s, the thirst for goods that this new discretionary income could purchase increased and became entrenched. Of course, it took businesses to indoctrinate many with their advertising why they needed this, that and everything else, but it worked. Now, across Europe and Asia, whether communist, democratic or every hybrid that exists, there are nations that are finding large portions of their population with discretionary income never before attained. And these people are all doing exactly like America did: they want more, they want luxuries, and they want to eat what they want, not what they could only afford. The result is the same in all reaches of the globe: high demand for goods, and populations that are getting fatter. Yes, European nations have begun having summits to discuss their fattening populations just like America. They are many years behind so there may be in time to prevent what has happened here, but the EXACT same thing is occurring there as well. It may be convenient, politically savvy or just plain self serving to label it as an “American mentality”, to demagogue another for the frailties or excesses of ones self or countrymen, but the reality is that WHENEVER and WHEREEVER wealth expands, the thirst for material goods rises in correlation. We didn’t invent this, but because we were the first to experience it “en mass”. Are we now to blame for the entire worlds excesses in infinitum now that they too have a more coins in there purses? Perhaps too strong, but I bristle at such comments. Yes it is more "American like", but it is also more Chinese like, Russian like and Indian like: All populations that are finding more wealth, and buying up everything they can get with the riches. My friend Pat has been to China three times in the past 15 months and cannot believe the goods and technology the masses possess. Obviously China has also many poor, but they have many who are not, and Spend, spend spend!
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Post by valpomike on Jan 4, 2008 8:13:16 GMT -7
Piwo,
Even at $3,000.00 per person, round trip, it is worth every cent. Spend it, you can't take it with you. Shope around, and you may want a stop over someplace along the way, for less fare. You only live once, and what do we work for if not to spend.
Michael Dabrowski
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Post by bescheid on Jan 4, 2008 8:24:32 GMT -7
One thing for certain the young have zeroed in on materialism and Poland is heading towards a more American mentality. An American Mentality? A convenient notion, but I can't say I agree with that exactly. Is it a mentality shared by many if not a majority of Americans, well yes. As the first superpower to realize widespread (or at least large portions of its population) affluence beginning in the late 1950’s and 1960’s, the thirst for goods that this new discretionary income could purchase increased and became entrenched. Of course, it took businesses to indoctrinate many with their advertising why they needed this, that and everything else, but it worked. Now, across Europe and Asia, whether communist, democratic or every hybrid that exists, there are nations that are finding large portions of their population with discretionary income never before attained. And these people are all doing exactly like America did: they want more, they want luxuries, and they want to eat what they want, not what they could only afford. The result is the same in all reaches of the globe: high demand for goods, and populations that are getting fatter. Yes, European nations have begun having summits to discuss their fattening populations just like America. They are many years behind so there may be in time to prevent what has happened here, but the EXACT same thing is occurring there as well. It may be convenient, politically savvy or just plain self serving to label it as an “American mentality”, to demagogue another for the frailties or excesses of ones self or countrymen, but the reality is that WHENEVER and WHEREEVER wealth expands, the thirst for material goods rises in correlation. We didn’t invent this, but because we were the first to experience it “en mass”. Are we now to blame for the entire worlds excesses in infinitum now that they too have a more coins in there purses? Perhaps too strong, but I bristle at such comments. Yes it is more "American like", but it is also more Chinese like, Russian like and Indian like: All populations that are finding more wealth, and buying up everything they can get with the riches. My friend Pat has been to China three times in the past 15 months and cannot believe the goods and technology the masses possess. Obviously China has also many poor, but they have many who are not, and Spend, spend spend! I do agree with Piwo with Materialism. This is not an American situation, it is a people situation. Manufacturing is producing what people wish for and need. It become then a circle. As manufacturing increases, as so, work opportunities are commensurate. With work opportunities, the paychecks payed out, give people more for purchasing power, and they then consume more then just necessitates. In time, what was formerly deemed as a luxury, then becomes a necessity. Then it becomes to the manufacturer, to create the means of production that is more efficient for lower price. This in turn becomes a necessity for more efficient means of distribution. It is our old Hanse. With out this concept, we {my country} would be on the street as beggers. Charles
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Pawian
European
Have you seen my frog?
Posts: 3,266
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Post by Pawian on Jan 4, 2008 14:02:18 GMT -7
One thing for certain the young have zeroed in on materialism and Poland is heading towards a more American mentality. An American Mentality? A convenient notion, but I can't say I agree with that exactly. Is it a mentality shared by many if not a majority of Americans, well yes. As the first superpower to realize widespread (or at least large portions of its population) affluence beginning in the late 1950’s and 1960’s, the thirst for goods that this new discretionary income could purchase increased and became entrenched. Of course, it took businesses to indoctrinate many with their advertising why they needed this, that and everything else, but it worked. Now, across Europe and Asia, whether communist, democratic or every hybrid that exists, there are nations that are finding large portions of their population with discretionary income never before attained. And these people are all doing exactly like America did: they want more, they want luxuries, and they want to eat what they want, not what they could only afford. The result is the same in all reaches of the globe: high demand for goods, and populations that are getting fatter. Yes, European nations have begun having summits to discuss their fattening populations just like America. They are many years behind so there may be in time to prevent what has happened here, but the EXACT same thing is occurring there as well. It may be convenient, politically savvy or just plain self serving to label it as an “American mentality”, to demagogue another for the frailties or excesses of ones self or countrymen, but the reality is that WHENEVER and WHEREEVER wealth expands, the thirst for material goods rises in correlation. We didn’t invent this, but because we were the first to experience it “en mass”. Are we now to blame for the entire worlds excesses in infinitum now that they too have a more coins in there purses? Perhaps too strong, but I bristle at such comments. Yes it is more "American like", but it is also more Chinese like, Russian like and Indian like: All populations that are finding more wealth, and buying up everything they can get with the riches. My friend Pat has been to China three times in the past 15 months and cannot believe the goods and technology the masses possess. Obviously China has also many poor, but they have many who are not, and Spend, spend spend! Piwo, an (in)famous American consumerism is something else. It means buying things which you don`t really need. During my 1.5 year stay in the USA I talked about it with American mates. One guy told me he had bought a motorbike which he had never used - he kept it in the tool shed. He openly admitted he didn`t know why he had purchased it. As a caretaker of a luxurious house in downtown Manhattan, he earned 35$ per hour and it was in 1990. Or, working as a roof foreman, I had to visit people in their last floor apartments. Once I saw that a giant shiny fridge is taken out of the kitchen. I thought it was broken but they said it was already two years old and that was the time to replace it with a newer model. We have had the same fridge since 1998 when we got married, it was a wedding present. It has been working impeccably till today, it looks just fine, it satisfies all our needs. Buying a fridge wouldn`t be the slightest problem with my earnings, but I won`t replace it as long as it continues working. Do you know what I mean now?
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piwo
Citizen of the World
Co Słychać?
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Post by piwo on Jan 4, 2008 16:26:19 GMT -7
Piwo, an (in)famous American consumerism is something else. It means buying things which you don`t really need. During my 1.5 year stay in the USA I talked about it with American mates. One guy told me he had bought a motorbike which he had never used - he kept it in the tool shed. He openly admitted he didn`t know why he had purchased it. As a caretaker of a luxurious house in downtown Manhattan, he earned 35$ per hour and it was in 1990. Or, working as a roof foreman, I had to visit people in their last floor apartments. Once I saw that a giant shiny fridge is taken out of the kitchen. I thought it was broken but they said it was already two years old and that was the time to replace it with a newer model. We have had the same fridge since 1998 when we got married, it was a wedding present. It has been working impeccably till today, it looks just fine, it satisfies all our needs. Buying a fridge wouldn`t be the slightest problem with my earnings, but I won`t replace it as long as it continues working. Do you know what I mean now? Pawian, I understand your examples completely, understand the type exactly, but find the argument no more compelling. My mom has the same refrigerator since 1981: it still works and she doesn't get rid of it until it breaks. I too have the same "fridge" since 1995. and also no need or desire to remove it. That you site examples of compulsive types who buy stuff "just for the heck of it" tells me little about the average American. It tells me about "compulsive" personalities, and I know some even more extreme examples of such. I collect a small few old military rifles: history. Am I alone, or is this an "American Mentality": to have many such things that are not needed? Well, you know the answer already, of course not. There are collectors of art, history, porn, toys, and everything else that has ever been manufactured, and all over the world. Why, because there are personalities that find it interesting or compelling, and they have the means. I also know a Slovak guy who is equally compulsive in his habits as you site, but that doesn't make him an "American Mentality". It makes him a compulsive mentality that has the buying power to see his compulsiveness to fruition. Much of Europe is in its infancy with increased affluence and so only going through the metamorphosis. Do you think America woke up one day and everyone went crazy? That may be a popular notion across the pond, but it was a gradual process. Can one deny Europe is now learning that process? They're not learning it from us, they're learning it as they go. I heard many, many stories of the famous food, toilet paper lines in communist countries that confirm the human nature is EXACTLY the same. Given opportunity, all are the same. I pick no fights here, nor look for sparring partners, but only point out that the road traveled here is being traveled everywhere widespread affluence is being realized, and human beings are human beings: irregardless of the color, religion and geography, they tend to act pretty much the same given time and opportunity. To suggest otherwise is a fairly bigoted view of the world, and contrary to the obvious. One may site examples on either side that contradict the premise, but the reality is there. Poland is indeed transforming as Kanga states, but the mentality it is changing to isn't American, it's that of the human state. We can beat this to death without end because it's an evolving process, but it is a process that will continue across the world every place there is money for conspicuous consumption money. You are a teacher, no? Rome wasn't built in a day, nor was America's spending habits. Nor the evolving spending habits of the globe. I must say, if your "American Mentality" are the examples you stated, it is in fact quite insulting since those exapmles are obviously compulsive. Since I am American, I must also be the same. If I took that stance on the stereotype to Europeans (and there are PLENTY I could site), I would be called an "Ugly American". Yet, it is OK directed toward us. I don't discount your observations in the 1.5 years you lived among the rabble , but you may have observed what you wished, or were programmed to observe. You viewed America through the filters you developed in Europe: just as I see the world through the filters I developed living here. I hope we at least can agree on this. That's my take, Best Regards, piwo.
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Pawian
European
Have you seen my frog?
Posts: 3,266
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Post by Pawian on Jan 5, 2008 15:53:53 GMT -7
Pawian, I understand your examples completely, understand the type exactly, but find the argument no more compelling. My mom has the same refrigerator since 1981: it still works and she doesn't get rid of it until it breaks. I too have the same "fridge" since 1995. and also no need or desire to remove it. Of course, there is an exception to every rule. You and your mother can be such exceptions. Besides, you admit having an old fridge to us here in the forum but I don`t think you are so open with your fellow Americans. As the tendency is towards the consumerist society, they would look upon you in disbelief and you would be sort of stigmatised for not changing your equipment yet. You certainly won`t risk that: American capitalism endorses the ideals of consumerism by instilling in its citizens the idea that personal success only comes through financial success. This subsequent wealth is displayed through the purchase of goods. In the same vein, the main theory of consumerism is that it is economically beneficial to have a progressively greater consumption of goods. This combined with the need to display one’s wealth though items purchased creates a never-ending cycle where citizens believe that it is economically correct to purchase goods and display one’s self-image through those goods.Conclusion: if you were frank to other Americans about this fridge, they would consider you a loser, wouldn`t they? Hmm, what about most Americans being compulsive types? The statistics which I am going to post afterwards will prove it. Hobby isn`t consumerism. You mix two different things now. Kaima! If you suggest that buying toilet paper or basic food like bread or milk is consumerism, you`d better stop because someone may read it and laugh their heads off. Good. I am also a peaceful guy.... Exceptions, exceptions! Hmm, can you take such a stance which would be well-grounded? Only in America can an individual go to a supermarket and spend twenty minutes in the housecleaning aisle looking for floor wax. In most other countries, where the “rights” of the consumer are not as emphasized, there are only two or three choices of any product. Since Americans have been raised in a society where they demand the best quality and a large selection, competition exists in every market. If only one product exists, soon another competitor product will enter the market claiming to be better than the first. This trend continues until the market is saturated with products that are all the same, differing only in packaging. It is the packaging that speaks to different parts of the population and convinces them the purchase floor wax B instead of floor wax A.[/img]
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Pawian
European
Have you seen my frog?
Posts: 3,266
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Post by Pawian on Jan 5, 2008 16:02:56 GMT -7
I am sorry Piwo but the statistics is relentless for Americans...
The problems is that those filters are created by concerned Americans themselves, e.g,. with the help of such US statistics which was already known when I was in the USA:
Percentage of college freshmen who reported thinking it is essential to be well off financially:1967: 44% 1987: 76%
Percentage of college freshmen who reported thinking it is essential to develop a philosophy of life: 1967: 83% 1987: 39%
Percentage of American teenage girls who report store-hopping as favorite activity: 93%
Year in which the number of shopping centers in the U.S. (32,563) surpassed the number of high schools: 1987
About 53% of grocery and 47% of hardware store purchases are spur of the moment.
Proportion of houseware bought to replace worn-out items: 1981: 2/3 to 3/4 1987: less than 1/2
Percentage of the word's population comprised of Americans: 5% Percentage of the world's resources consumed by Americans: 30%
The amount of energy used by one American is equivalent to that used by: 3 Japanese 6 Mexicans 14 Chinese 38 Indians 168 Bengalis 531 Ethiopians
A person in the U.S. causes 100 times more damage to the global environment than a person in a poor country.
Percentage of fossil fuel used annually that is consumed by the U.S.: 25%
Percentage of disposable personal income in U.S. allotted to savings: 1973: 8.6% 1993: 4.2%
Percentage of disposable income spent on personal debt payments: 1983: 8.6% 1990: 83%
In the U.S., we use 250 gallons of oil equivalent per person, per year. Europeans use half this amount.
Most Europeans produce less than half the waste per person as the average American.
Possibility that all the world's people could live as Americans do: zero
Number of people that the planet could support living as the Europeans do, with modest but comfortable homes, refrigeration for food, and ready access to public transit, augmented by limited auto use: everyone
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Post by rdywenur on Jan 5, 2008 18:19:16 GMT -7
Pawian although your figures maybe accurate from data gathered they are not fair in equality. For one America has always been more affluent than other countries and had more accessibility to everything. How can you compare a person that has something to waste and one that has nothing. Now give them the same and then compare.
The photos of your students tells much also in observation. They seem no different than ours and given time they will be like ours only cause your economy will have caught up with ours. I am not saying that everything that is done over here is right but we have the freedom to do it and the means. Come back in 10 years and read the statistics or maybe sooner.
The other thing is that many Europeans are still in the mindset of war times when there was no food and people waited in lines for a loaf of bread. So they are still very thrifty with everything. My mom is like that. She will not throw anything away and waste anything until it crawls away. If she could create something out of garbage she probably would. We are not like our parents cause we did not see this in our life times. Could there be a touch of envy of your colleagues.
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Post by Jaga on Jan 5, 2008 23:51:08 GMT -7
Americans shop more than Europeans, they have bigger houses, drive usually bigger cars. I believe in Pawian's statistics because I lived in Europe.
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Pawian
European
Have you seen my frog?
Posts: 3,266
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Post by Pawian on Jan 6, 2008 0:49:50 GMT -7
Pawian although your figures maybe accurate from data gathered they are not fair in equality. For one America has always been more affluent than other countries and had more accessibility to everything. How can you compare a person that has something to waste and one that has nothing. Now give them the same and then compare. The photos of your students tells much also in observation. They seem no different than ours and given time they will be like ours only cause your economy will have caught up with ours. I am not saying that everything that is done over here is right but we have the freedom to do it and the means. Come back in 10 years and read the statistics or maybe sooner. Who knows? You might be right.... Here I can agree too but is it a drawback on part of Europeans to be still thrifty 60 years after the war and is it a plus for Americans that they have long forgotten how to be thrifty?
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Pawian
European
Have you seen my frog?
Posts: 3,266
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Post by Pawian on Jan 6, 2008 1:18:59 GMT -7
Americans shop more than Europeans, they have bigger houses, drive usually bigger cars. I believe in Pawian's statistics because I lived in Europe. This is not China, it`s Amsterdam, Holland, one of the richest in Europe We knew that bicycles were used in Amsterdam but we had no idea to what extent. Bikes outnumber cars at least 20 to 1. This is a very common sight in Amsterdam.Italy
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jeanne
Cosmopolitan
Posts: 544
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Post by jeanne on Jan 6, 2008 18:57:40 GMT -7
Yes, Pawian, it is obvious that Americans have more cars and drive more than Europeans, but the size of the US has something to do with that. EVERYTHING here distance-wise is on a grander scale and that scenario has led to the necessity of more cars and more driving.
And let's not paint all Americans with same same paintbrush. There is still here a generation (rapidly disappearing now) that lived through the Great Depression and retain the lessons in frugality learned during that time. And let me just say that I, though able to, possess neither a dishwasher nor a microwave oven. I pride myself on purchasing only what I absolutely need and have taught these values to my children as well.
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Pawian
European
Have you seen my frog?
Posts: 3,266
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Post by Pawian on Jan 7, 2008 1:00:03 GMT -7
Yes, Pawian, it is obvious that Americans have more cars and drive more than Europeans, but the size of the US has something to do with that. EVERYTHING here distance-wise is on a grander scale and that scenario has led to the necessity of more cars and more driving. Yes, big country needs big cars. Rapidly disappearing is a meaningful expression here.
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