Permafrost in Poland

[kaima]

Honestly, I wouldn't expect there to be any except at the tops of some of the Tatra Mountains these days. Certainly, if Poland has an "Ice Cave" comparable to the Slovak cave at Dobsina, the permanent ice demands permanently frozen soil around it - Permafrost. CHECK THE SECOND POSTING FOR MORE !

I have read some scientific papers where there were "fossil ice wedges" in Germany, just a bit north of Frankfurt. These were leftovers from the last Ice Age. I would expect some also exist in Poland, most of which will never be discovered. This is an image of an ice lens that I took last summer at Fox, Alaska, just north of Fairbanks. Luckily it is visible from the Steese Highway, so easily seen by the public. It is good to know they have not all melted yet!



Kai

[kaima]

AHA! Poland DOES have ice caves and permafrost, according to a very quick search.

Thanks to Klub Groto³azów for posting an excellent and intersting site of their explorations at www.sktj.pl/epimenides/jaskinie/jask18.html
www.sktj.pl/epimenides/jaskinie/jask21.html and
www.sktj.pl/epimenides/jaskinie/index.html

***
Jaskinia Lodowa w Ciemniaku (Ice Cave in Ciemniak) is located in the Western Tatra Mountains (Tatry Zachodnie) and it hosts the largest known subterranean block of perennial ice in Poland. Its entrance is situated at 1715 m a.s.l and the cave climate is classified as dynamic type with seasonal and diurnal variations of air temperature. The mass balance of ice body was investigated on monthly, annual and decadal scale through a set of detailed measurements of ice geometry performed during 2000–2004 years and in comparison with existing older data. The nature of recent perennial ice changes was determined through temperature measurements and seasonal ice surface observations. In general the ice mass reveals negative mass balance, however melting is not continuous throughout the year. The largest lowering of ice surface was observed in summer, due to melting, and in winter (when temperatures were well below zero) on account of sublimation. The increase in ice volume was observed in springtime when percolating water was available and the temperature was slightly below zero. In the balance year 2000–2001, 37.8 m3 of ice was lost and in 2001–2002 as much as 53.2 m3. During the subsequent period, 2002–2004, the average negative mass balance was even of about 66.8 m3. Comparison between the detail geodetic survey in 2002 and published data from 1986 reveals that the averaged annual ice volume lost was 36.6 m3 y–1, slightly less than recently. The confrontation of reported ice mass geometries in 1922, 1950 and 1986 allows to estimate averaged annual ice mass loss in the period 1922–1950 as 23.0 m3 y-1 and, during the time-period 1950–1986 as 24.8 m3 y-1. It clearly shows that ice mass losses were significantly higher in the last decade.
Rachlewicz, G. & Szczucinski, W. — Seasonal, annual and decadal ice mass balance changes in the ice cave Jaskinia Lodowa w Ciemniaku, the Tatra Mountains, Poland. pp. 11-18. ***
is written up at
www.geocities.com/karstology/TAK17.html

Yes, I am a person who happens to think that earth-ice is a cool topic!

Kai

[bujno]

I have never been in Ciemniak cave, I suppose that it's suitable for 'professionals' only to enter it safely? ONe of the most popular caves in Poland is Jaskinia Raj, near the town of Kielce


I read that its natural corridors lenght is 240 m
www.jaskiniaraj.pl/jaskinia/en/

Jaskinia Raj is very near to Zamek Chêciny


The region is very beautiful. It is Góry Œwiêtokrzyskie, or Swietokrzyskie Mountains. These are one of the oldest mountain chains in Poland - easy to climb, good for families with little children and for the families with very adult children.

[Jaga]

Bujno,

wonderful pictures! I remember Checiny and Cave Raj from my trips in Poland.

Kai, yes, Poland may have some ice caves but we do not have permanent glaciers in the mountains like Alps do. I do not think that Slovaks have any glaciers also,

I saw only glaciers during our trip to Scandinavia. They were pretty dirty from being there several thousdans years and then from catching all the dust around.

[sciwriter]

Guys, beautiful photos!Thanks.

Ice caves in USA:

glaciercaves.com/html/bigfou_1.HTM
Carl

[kaima]

Wow! It is neat to strike an area of interest in people! Thanks for posting the pictures, bunjo.

Just for fun I Googled "fossil ice wedge" and the first hit came up in Poland, in a reference at the Louisiana State Library.



louisdl.louislibraries.org/cdm4/item_viewer.php?CISOROOT=/BRS&CISOPTR=406&REC=2

Title Fossil ice wedge
Creator Russell, Richard Joel, 1895-

Subject Beachrock
Poland

Source Louisiana State University Libraries Special Collections (http://www.lib.lsu.edu/special) Baton Rouge, La

Relation Beachrock Research Slides of Richard J. Russell

A fossil ice wedge is a remnant of old permafrost or the Ice Age in Poland. The wedge forms when the ground cracks and water flows in and freezes; in following seasons the action is repeated in the annual freeze-thaw cycles. The ice wedge represented here is obviously quite large and developed over a long time. As the Ice Age ended the earth warmed, the ice melted and the ice was replaced with different soil (here lighter in color).

I started to wonder about the ice age in Poland and Slovakia a while back. I grew up in Ohio where the land forms could be compared to Poland - relatively flat over most of the country, but hilly or mountainous in the southeast. In Ohio that was caused by the limits of the ice sheet during the Ice Age, where the ice sheet pretty well flattened any hills. I am still wondering to what extent the same happened in Poland. So far I can only glean a few references that imply glaciers extended out from the Tatras and the northern ice sheet came down to about mid-Poland. I am sure Polish geographers and scientists have a much more detailed picture of events, but it is not so easy to locate in English or German literature.

Kai
PS. THis is interesting. I ahve twice tried to imbed the image as I usually do, but it refuses to come up! You will ahve to click on the link to see the reference.

[Jaga]

Kai,

as I remember from my school years Poland was run three times by glaciers - the first time the glacier reached almost Tatras, the last time it just left the lakes in the Northern Poland. So Slovakia was probably on the boarder of the first biggest ice period and thats it!

[Jaga]

I was searching for the map pf tertiary glaciation in Poland but I could not find one. Here is what I found:
academic.emporia.edu/aberjame/ice/lec14/lec14.htm#sw_poland

[kaima]

Just going by the name, it seems this was a Polish fellow in Russian service. i could not confirm that by an internet search, but here are some details about a glacier named after him and a link to an island bearing his name as well.

Wosnesenski Glacier, Alaska

Ilia G. Wosnesenski was sent in 1839 to Alaska, by and at the cost of the Imperial Academy of Sciences of St. Petersburg, to make collections. He sailed on August l9, 1839, and reached Sitka on May l, 1840. In 1840-41 he was on the coast of lower and upper California, in 1842-43 in the Aleutian islands, in Bering sea and Kotzebue sound, in 1844 in the Kurile islands, and in 1845-1848 about the Okhotsk sea and in Kamchatka. He returned to Sitka at the end of July, 1849, and sailed thence for St. Petersburg on the ship Atka.

for a hike up to the glacier:
Wosnesenski River Trail (11.3 mi/18.0 km)
Rating: Moderate (long switchbacks) to easy (along river flats)
Hiking Time: 10 hours from Haystack Trailhead to China Poot Lake
Elevation Gain: 300 ft
Trailhead Access: By boat from Homer. (tide dependent)

Camping: Campsite; undeveloped sites; along Wosnesenski River flats; and at Haystack Trailhead beach area.
Water Availability: in local creeks.
Trail Description: The trail begins along the Poot Peak Trail. From here, it winds pleasantly through forests, meadows and bogs, along the shores of three lakes. It then climbs a low ridge and drops into the Wosnesenski River Valley. Heading west from the expansive gravel bars of the river here, the trail climbs over a ridge and continues along the river, winding in and out of groves of large cottonwoods. A spectacular 600 foot waterfall is visible from several miles across the valley. After passing powerlines, the trail intersects with a small utility access road. Turn right (north) and follow the road to Haystack Trailhead.
If starting from the Haystack bulletin board, an orange triangle seen across the flats to the southeast marks the trail. The Wosnesenski River is a typical glacial river, braided with gravel flats on either side, a highly scenic area with sweeping vistas of mountains and glaciers to the south.
Note: Tidal flats at Haystack Trailhead flood at 16+ foot tides.

The mile-high Harding Icefield is a glacial vestige of the 10,000-year-old Pleistocene period when an expansive ice sheet blanketed southcentral Alaska. The icefield may also be a remnant of the massive Truuli Icefield, recorded by the naturalist Ilia G. Wosnesenski in 1842 that comprised both the Sargent and Harding icefields. Heavy winter snow loads feed the glaciers at higher altitudes as moist air settles above the mountains. Snowfall occurs primarily in the winter months though summer storms are not uncommon; the icefield accumulates as much as 400 inches of snow annually.

www.amnwr.com/2006/Wosnesenski/index.html#Wosnesenski060515-073 for Wosnesenski Island, also in Alaska.

Ilia Voznesenskii's

[kaima]

admin said:

I was searching for the map pf tertiary glaciation in Poland but I could not find one. Here is what I found:
academic.emporia.edu/aberjame/ice/lec14/lec14.htm#sw_poland

Thanks Jaga, that looks like a great site to get an overview & get a better idea of what to look for if I go into greater depth. It is always comforting to see that the experts have various opinions, that leaves room for us amateurs to breathe too!

I tried "pay back" by researching that Polish sounding name of a glacier in Alaska, but could come upwithnothing definite on the history of Ilia G. Wosnesenski other than he was a well respected scientist.

Kai