|
|
Post by justjohn on Jul 9, 2007 5:45:41 GMT -7
  Polish spiritPoland is seen as a problem. Many European leaders find it hard to swallow the Polish spirit: too harsh, too challenging, enough indeed to make them splutter and choke. Perhaps they have forgotten too much. The European Union is a unique blend of compromises - savage history mellowed with age - while many Poles still feel fiery about the past. To put it more crudely, they suffered more than most in World War II but when others gathered round the table to make sure it would never happen again, they were unavoidably delayed. They missed the bit where the goodies got handed out and "sorry" was said with real sorrow. lk_afp_203.jpgAs Portugal takes on the EU presidency, its prime minister, Jose Socrates, has said he doesn't want to cast Poland as the bad guy in the European movie. But the most commonly held view among European Union diplomats is that Poland, or at least the current Polish government, isn't playing the game, is stubborn and intractable. Those who hold this view often feel that they were rather generous in allowing Poland and the other seven eastern former-communist states to join their club - and now the biggest of them wants to change the rules. Recently a senior diplomat of one of the smaller countries told me he wished he could return to the EU of 15 states. He said something like: "We had a common history, a common attitude towards Europe, which made things simpler. Now the new countries don't share that attitude." He said it would be better if some of them would leave. I normally favour short sharp questions to politicians, but this was a conversation over dinner rather than an interview, so I rambled on a bit. I pointed out that France, Germany and Britain had very different, if often shared, histories and very different attitudes towards Europe. On the other hand, despite their different historical experiences, Estonia or the Czech Republic seemed quite similar to the Danes or Swedes in their approach to Europe. So when he said "the new countries" was that just code for Poland? "Yes," he replied with undiplomatic alacrity. Jabbing at a taboo The twins who run Poland are disliked even more because of the outcome of the June summit. Despite all the warnings that they didn't know how to play the game, that they had to forge alliances rather than be so pig-headed, they remained intransigent. And won. They got the voting system they want kept for at least another seven years, against the opposition of 26 other countries. Now they are claiming that an oral agreement was made to give even more concessions and want the deal unpicked. The rest of the EU is unamused. handbag_pa_203.jpgI am tempted to write that they have done a Thatcher, waving their handbags. But perhaps that would be unwise as the twins' ultra-conservative government recently thought about banning the Teletubbies from Polish TV screens, because the apparently male Tinky Winky carries a handbag and so threatens to corrupt the morals of Poland's toddlers. But at any rate, they waved something appropriately butch and the other countries, desperate for a deal, let them have what they wanted. More here: ]http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/markmardell/2007/07/polish_spirit_1.html
|
|
|
|
Post by Jaga on Jul 9, 2007 8:13:51 GMT -7
John, very interesting article! I guess, Poles need to learn about common European spirit but the rest of Europe should learn a difficult Polish history  |
|
|
|
Post by leslie on Jul 9, 2007 8:15:13 GMT -7
John
I am fairly certain that it is not Poland that wears a hat that says 'The EU doesn't like us'. After all Poland was accepted willingly on the current terms of the EU as a full member state, but I'm afraid that the atmosphere certainly changed with the June summit, not because of what Poland put forward as 'proposals' but because of the way the issues were approached. OK the large members of the EU put forward proposals in a strong, straightforward way, but the attitude is not one of belligerence, rather proposals that would make the member state a more effective one.
In this case the twins announced their belligerence before they even came to the summit, produced anti feelings among most of the other members while they were there, and their mutterings are still continuing. If I were an EU representative at the June summit I would feel that Poland was being over forceful - and as I keep on saying, belligerent - and trying, not to win over the support of the other members but to force them to accept without question the demands of the twins. The principle of the EU is one of a family trying to work together for the better of the members of the family - OK sometimes it doesn't completely seem like that, but such is family life!
The British people (ignore the politicians) may not like many of the stringencies of the EU legislation, but Tony Blair went there with his agenda, proposed it in what seemed to me to be an acceptable way, and accepted it when he did not win everything. This of course is against the backdrop of our domestic problem that government does not want a referendum on EU because they know what the answer would be - even business who were the main supporters of UK in EU are backing away now. I do not think at all that the British people do not like Poland - quite the reverse - but the reason for some thoughts on the subject is obvious.
Leslie
|
|
|
|
Post by leslie on Jul 9, 2007 8:18:53 GMT -7
PS. The question that people in Britain are asking is why Poland (presumably the twins again) has gone to America seeking some form of support. America is not part of the EU and never could be - at the least it is a different continent. Now that Tony Blair has gone are the twins seeking to replace him as bush's 'friend'?
|
|
|
|
Post by bescheid on Jul 9, 2007 17:00:53 GMT -7
John I am fairly certain that it is not Poland that wears a hat that says 'The EU doesn't like us'. After all Poland was accepted willingly on the current terms of the EU as a full member state, but I'm afraid that the atmosphere certainly changed with the June summit, not because of what Poland put forward as 'proposals' but because of the way the issues were approached. OK the large members of the EU put forward proposals in a strong, straightforward way, but the attitude is not one of belligerence, rather proposals that would make the member state a more effective one. In this case the twins announced their belligerence before they even came to the summit, produced anti feelings among most of the other members while they were there, and their mutterings are still continuing. If I were an EU representative at the June summit I would feel that Poland was being over forceful - and as I keep on saying, belligerent - and trying, not to win over the support of the other members but to force them to accept without question the demands of the twins. The principle of the EU is one of a family trying to work together for the better of the members of the family - OK sometimes it doesn't completely seem like that, but such is family life! The British people (ignore the politicians) may not like many of the stringencies of the EU legislation, but Tony Blair went there with his agenda, proposed it in what seemed to me to be an acceptable way, and accepted it when he did not win everything. This of course is against the backdrop of our domestic problem that government does not want a referendum on EU because they know what the answer would be - even business who were the main supporters of UK in EU are backing away now. I do not think at all that the British people do not like Poland - quite the reverse - but the reason for some thoughts on the subject is obvious. Leslie Leslie I was with intent not to enter of this subject. But, upon my reading of your above reply, changed over my mind for as you have spoken truth and actual of this situation, with a great deal of diplomacy. Your island country seems to produce a great many great states man for some reason and this has not been lost on your self... Charles |
|
|
|
Post by varsovian on Jul 10, 2007 1:38:13 GMT -7
Oh dear.
The latest EU summit was very much a foregone conclusion, and was widely reported as such.
The EU constitution, which was rejected some time ago, is now going to be largely enacted - the EU federalists have said this quite openly.
|
|
george
Cosmopolitan
Posts: 568
|
Post by george on Jul 10, 2007 6:50:14 GMT -7
"PS. The question that people in Britain are asking is why Poland (presumably the twins again) has gone to America seeking some form of support. America is not part of the EU and never could be - at the least it is a different continent. Now that Tony Blair has gone are the twins seeking to replace him as bush's 'friend'?"
Leslie, i think the answer to the question the Brits have concerning Poland ( gone to America for support ) lies in its history. Europeon nations never ever came to Polands aid in recent history ( WW2 ). They were stung by this and have not forgotten it. This is why they chum up to America.
I think they feel " Never again".
|
|
|
|
Post by varsovian on Jul 10, 2007 7:02:30 GMT -7
Mrs Thatcher championed the idea of Poland entering the EU because she thought they would act as a counterweight to the Franco-German hegemony.
|
|
|
|
Post by bescheid on Jul 10, 2007 7:49:59 GMT -7
Mrs Thatcher championed the idea of Poland entering the EU because she thought they would act as a counterweight to the Franco-German hegemony. As the present now presents the folly of this thinking, as currant events have disclosed. Poland has been placed back step in the stead of intention, to be brought forward as an equal partner in the EU. Then PM Thatcher if her thinking had been more in line with progressive advancement, she would have presented a catalyst for Poland as an integration tool. But, in the stead, presented her plan at the expense of Poland, with out fore thought of cause and effect, but has in effect, presented a great deal of discord. Polish leadership creats and maintains a mill stone against advancement With the constant reminders of old scores from the war. If they were actually serious, they would have created the means to have these scores settled and of course they will not, it is in this stead, a great deal of hot air/hate/ and dissension. It is not the people, for the people are at the mercy of their leadership, how ever so poor, or as the case could be, as great. www.iht.com/articles/2007/06/20/europe/poland.phpCharles |
|
|
|
Post by leslie on Jul 10, 2007 8:16:24 GMT -7
George, Oh dear I think you have forgotten something. The UK did come to the aid of Poland and lost quite a few airmen in the process - I refer to the flights of the RAF with supplies etc to the brave men fighting the Rising, flying a long way from the Middle East with the risk - assessed and actual - of if things went wrong the Reds would not allow them to use their airfields. They relented eventually over this - when the flights were ending because the Nazis were overcoming the Home Army. I understand that there were one or two USAAF flights included in this event, but minimally. What else did they do for the Poles that makes them think now they will get support from USA??
So if the Poles are 'stung by this' - what are they stung about??!!
Leslie
|
|
|
|
Post by varsovian on Jul 11, 2007 2:30:35 GMT -7
bescheid
There is some mileage to be had out of the anarchic influence of Poland in the EU. The UK is spectacularly losing its pathetic little half-hearted struggle against the formation of a centralistic superstate. Anarchic Poles are most welcome to throw their own spanners into the works.
|
|
