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Islam
Jul 27, 2008 15:19:00 GMT -7
Post by jimpres on Jul 27, 2008 15:19:00 GMT -7
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Islam
Jul 27, 2008 17:34:56 GMT -7
Post by pieter on Jul 27, 2008 17:34:56 GMT -7
Jim,
I have seen this movie before, and it was a lot in the news in the Netherlands a few months ago. The movie does not show new facts or news, but what it shows is true. You had the suicide bombings of New York, Madrid and New York. You had the brutal killing of Theo Van Gogh in november 2004. Hirsi Ali had to leave the country for safety reasons, and in some cities and towns neighbourhoods are terrorised by Maroccan thugs. It's a reality. It is also a reality that after 2004 many comedians, columnists, public intellectuals and others dare not criticize the Islam as religion, while christianity is criticized. Fear exists in Holland and Europe, and seggregation exists. You have white schools and black schools (black school means a school for immigrants or foreigners).
Geert Wilders is supported by a minority of people who live in neighbourhoods that are terrorised, by people who are sick of the political correctness and islamization of public places and neighbourhoods. Geert Wilders is under constant protection by bodyguards, and he has had many Deathtthreats. In the same time he is criticized and attacked by both radical left, centre-left and centre-right politicians and people who dislike him and his message. He has a Hungarian wife.
My view is that he is democratically elected, a member of the Dutch parlaiment and therefor he should be able to use his freedom of expression and is free to express his political ideas. We are stil a free, democratic county, with the rule of low and the freedom to organise oneselves and of political conviction.
Pieter
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Islam
Jul 27, 2008 17:52:53 GMT -7
Post by Jaga on Jul 27, 2008 17:52:53 GMT -7
Pieter,
why so many muslims chose to settle in Netherlands? I wonder whether this would not change the traditional Dutch liberalism, sometimes even extreme liberalism and freedom - into something completely opposite.
It is interesting how people of so different cultures (freedom, liberalism, gay rights and drug use free to a certain extend) and strict muslim can coexist in the same country.
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Islam
Jul 28, 2008 14:42:30 GMT -7
Post by jimpres on Jul 28, 2008 14:42:30 GMT -7
Pieter,
Thanks for you view of the subject. Seems we here in the US are now seeing more honor killings from the Muslims. They sure do not have any respect for life. The reasons they kill are stupid in my mind. And to kill ones own children is horrible. I'm sure we here in the US will try to rehabilitate them. I would just hang em high.
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Islam
Jul 28, 2008 16:39:22 GMT -7
Post by pieter on Jul 28, 2008 16:39:22 GMT -7
Pieter, why so many muslims chose to settle in Netherlands? I wonder whether this would not change the traditional Dutch liberalism, sometimes even extreme liberalism and freedom - into something completely opposite. It is interesting how people of so different cultures (freedom, liberalism, gay rights and drug use free to a certain extend) and strict muslim can coexist in the same country. Jaga, That reason lies in the sixtees and seventees, when employers needed cheap labour. After the Italian, Spanish and Portugese guestworkers of the fiftees and sixtees, the employers found a new cheap labourmarket for imported labour, Turkey and Morocco. tenthousands of guestworkers were transported here, and put to work without integration or assimilation demands. This first generation of low educated Turks and Moroccans from the pour and primitive mountain area's from their countries came to a high developped, Industrial society, which was progressive and liberal. With the Hyperindividualism, feminism, Neo-Marxism, the afterpains of the sexual revolution, experimental free relationships, the Gay rights movement (as militant sometimes as the women movement), Anti-psychiatry, and radical youth movements like squaters, rebels, Punks, Hippies, Skinheads, Mods and Communes. These Muslim workers who could not understand the language, only worked long hours in their factories and lived together with compatriots in cheap hostels, where often several men had to share a room, got a strange impression of their new homeland, and decided to keep their orthodox or Ultra-conservative Islamic faith and old Turkish and Moroccan traditions and customs. After they earned some money they bought or rented cheap flats or appartments in old neighbourhoods. Their children went to Dutch schools, but could not communicate with their parents in Dutch, parents who often were illiterate. The sons and doughters were interpreters and guides for their parents in a Dutch society which was strange to these people with a mountain culture. Therefor these second generation kids lived literary between two cultures. The sons in these cultures are very spoiled and the girls are kept under very strict guidance of their fathers and mothers, with a very strict honour culture. Protecting the honour of the family and the virginity of the daughter was and is very important with many Moroccan, Turkish, Kurd and other Muslim minority families. Therefor there is a system of older brothers or nephews spying on sisters and cousins. The third generation is a difficult one, because that generation does not feel Dutch, but does not really feel 100% Moroccan or Turkish either. Many boys drop from school while their sisters are determined to study on higschool and have good higher academical or university education after highschool. The spoiled Moroccan and Turkish boys are often a pain in the ass, because their difficult behavior, small and larger crime and the threat that they go from bad til worse. The other extreme is that they come religious, called "Serious" in circles of muslim migrant boys. Than they grew a beard and mustache, wear a headgear, long religious clothes and turn themselves away from the secular society and their troubled (criminal) past. They are saved in the Muslim sort of the meaning (like an evangelised person in the Christian world). A "serious" guy who follows an Saoudi (Wahabist), Algerian (Salafist) or orthodox-Sunni (Egyptian, or just Moroccan or Turkish) direction also turns away from his past wrongdoing like streetcrimes, streetrobberies, smoking joynts, drinking and chasing girls. A " serious" guy is respected by the others in the neighbourhood. He focus himself totally on a religious life. Reading the Koran, praying five times a day, reading religious lectures and literature, meating only other pious people. Often these guys go to a religious school in a Muslim country and go on hadj to Mecca. Some of them become pieceful, orthodox mulisms with a pious life, other become radicals, and their religion is influenced by a extremist ideology, from Al qaida or another terror group. They are monitored by Dutch secret services and the police. Pieter
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Islam
Jul 28, 2008 16:43:06 GMT -7
Post by pieter on Jul 28, 2008 16:43:06 GMT -7
Jaga,
Sometimes I find that there was to much attention on or for feminism and gay rights here! The radical and dominant liberalism could be to dominant in the eightees and ninetees with the dominant position of political correct left-intellectual journalists and tv personalities.
The sky was the limit, nothing could harm us, we lived in an internal social-democratic paradise, and the big bad world was far away. That changed with 9-11, the killing of Pim Fortuyn in 2002 and the brutal assasination of Theo van Gogh in 2004.
Pieter
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Islam
Jul 28, 2008 19:25:08 GMT -7
Post by Jaga on Jul 28, 2008 19:25:08 GMT -7
Jaga, Sometimes I find that there was to much attention on or for feminism and gay rights here! The radical and dominant liberalism could be to dominant in the eightees and ninetees with the dominant position of political correct left-intellectual journalists and tv personalities. Pieter Pieter, thank you for your very interesting input about how Muslim people came to Netherland and how they are changing/not changing. It almost looks that the girls want to use as much as possible the education opportunities while boys do not care. I was surprised how many muslims are there in Holland since at least 2 times in the past we were joined here in the forum (before you came) by Dutch muslims. We even had a discussion about Turkey with him. One of these guys was quite smart and educated. But he had strange views. At least I thought so. I agree with you that the forms of liberalism in Holland were probably extreme. Now they pay for it.... I hope it will be better eventually.
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Islam
Jul 28, 2008 20:29:07 GMT -7
Post by freetobe on Jul 28, 2008 20:29:07 GMT -7
Pieter,
In the U.S. 9/11 had a profoundly different effect. America had never experienced terrorism of this magnitude. Issues as gay rights, abortion/or a woman's right to choose the environment,etc. took a back seat to "National Security" Even the most social/liberal areas in the U.S. rallied behind the flag to turn back and capture Bin Laden. What American's got was an illegal war in the Middle East, fueled by the support of ultra conservatives in the Bush administration. In spite of loss of human life during this war,the blunders of government and military leaders, the economic hardships now facing America, the American right wing lunatics continue to wreak havoc on those that do not share their beliefs. The latest murders in a Unitarian Church in Tennessee are an example of extremism out of control. Whatever American liberals espoused during the 80/90"s never led the U.S. into the the complacency of the first W Bush administration and resultant debacle. It's no wonder today's bumper stickers declare "the W orst president ever"
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Islam
Jul 28, 2008 21:22:21 GMT -7
Post by hollister on Jul 28, 2008 21:22:21 GMT -7
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Islam
Jul 28, 2008 22:17:56 GMT -7
Post by Jaga on Jul 28, 2008 22:17:56 GMT -7
Holly, interesting quiz. I also got 9/10 but I think it is a bit simplified since Islam has many faces. Islam is really divided into more moderate and more strict. We do not know enough about it. Just like there is no one christianity
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Islam
Jul 29, 2008 14:18:41 GMT -7
Post by pieter on Jul 29, 2008 14:18:41 GMT -7
Jaga, Sometimes I find that there was to much attention on or for feminism and gay rights here! The radical and dominant liberalism could be to dominant in the eightees and ninetees with the dominant position of political correct left-intellectual journalists and tv personalities. Pieter Pieter, thank you for your very interesting input about how Muslim people came to Netherland and how they are changing/not changing. It almost looks that the girls want to use as much as possible the education opportunities while boys do not care. I was surprised how many muslims are there in Holland since at least 2 times in the past we were joined here in the forum (before you came) by Dutch muslims. We even had a discussion about Turkey with him. One of these guys was quite smart and educated. But he had strange views. At least I thought so. I agree with you that the forms of liberalism in Holland were probably extreme. Now they pay for it.... I hope it will be better eventually. You're welcome! Yes, we pay for the political correctness and the country slowly became a little bit less radical liberal as it was. I would say it is liberal-conservative today. More like Canada or Australia. Pieter
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Islam
Jul 29, 2008 15:50:05 GMT -7
Post by pieter on Jul 29, 2008 15:50:05 GMT -7
Pieter, In the U.S. 9/11 had a profoundly different effect. America had never experienced terrorism of this magnitude. Issues as gay rights, abortion/or a woman's right to choose the environment,etc. took a back seat to "National Security" Even the most social/liberal areas in the U.S. rallied behind the flag to turn back and capture Bin Laden. What American's got was an illegal war in the Middle East, fueled by the support of ultra conservatives in the Bush administration. In spite of loss of human life during this war,the blunders of government and military leaders, the economic hardships now facing America, the American right wing lunatics continue to wreak havoc on those that do not share their beliefs. The latest murders in a Unitarian Church in Tennessee are an example of extremism out of control. Whatever American liberals espoused during the 80/90"s never led the U.S. into the the complacency of the first W Bush administration and resultant debacle. It's no wonder today's bumper stickers declare "the W orst president ever" Freetobe, The world is changing, is becomming more international and multi-cultural. Many people, both the people who lived longer in America and Europe. The founding fader generation and the peoples of Europe who lived for thousands of years on this continent, have difficulties by both mirgation and new relatively new things like suffragete (emancipation of women, the radical feminist movement), the gay rights movent, and in my country the practice of abortion, euthenasia and Gay marriage. Conservative Catholics, Orthodox-protestants and Muslims have difficulties with these liberal, socialist (social-democatic) and radical things. Next to that you have in the Netherlands the radical drugs policy of legalised sof drugs and prohibited hard drugs. I live in a multi-layerd, pluriform society, with a secular majority and orthodox minorities of all faiths. We want to keep and protect our liberal achievements, which were reached by decades of politcal struggle, political processes, dialectical parlaimentairy process of negociations and parlaimentairy debates between Centre-Left, Centre-Right, left- and rightwing parties, Unions, non gouvernmental organisation, the stuggle of interests groups, intellectuals, experts, ethical spokespersons, moralists, humanists, protestants, Catholics, jews and secularists (atheïsts). I live in a country with a parlaiment with 11 parties, 3 leftwing - from radical liberal to moderate liberal-, 2 centre-left parties, 2 centre right parties, 2 orthodox protestant parties and 2 rightwing Populist parties. It is less easy to give a clear image of my progressive and liberal coubtry, which underwent a Populist revolution in the beginning of this century after the brutal murder of it's populist leader. The growing fear of islam and terrorism is the same as in the USA probably. But we witnessed terrorism from another direction earlier, when Christian Moluccans hyjacked trains and killed hostages in the seventees, and when the radical left German RAF (Bader Meinhoff gruppe) killed Dutch policemen on Dutch soil. And we had our own radical left terror cell RARA ( Radical Anti Racist Action), who bombed the house of a minister in the early ninetees, and bombed gass stations and headquarters of large companies (no victims). And the Anarchist radical-left Squater movement made a sort of city guerilla war against the police and Real estate and property developers. Since 9/11, Madrid and London the fear that Amsterdam, Rotterdam or Schiphol Airport would be the next target was general. Dutch political parties: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkspartij_voor_Vrijheid_en_Democratie / www.vvd.nl/index.aspx?ChapterID=1288en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Democratic_Appeal / www.cda.nl/en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labour_Party_%28Netherlands%29www.pvda.nl/renderer.do/menuId/102085/clearState/true/sf/45523/returnPage/45523/itemId/220099737/realItemId/220099737/pageId/200006510/instanceId/102095/en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democrats_66 / democrats.nl/nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialistische_Partij_%28Nederland%29 / international.sp.nl/nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/GroenLinks / start.groenlinks.nl/en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Party_for_the_Animals / www.partyfortheanimals.nl/en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ChristianUnion / www.christenunie.nl/enen.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reformed_Political_Party / www.sgp.nl/en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Party_for_Freedom / www.groepwilders.com/website/default.aspx?ID=4en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rita_Verdonkwww.trotsopnederland.com/The Dutch parlaiment: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tweede_KamerLiberalism in the Netherlands: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberalism_in_the_NetherlandsPoldermodel: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PoldermodelWelfare state: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welfare_stateOutside the parlaiment: Catholic Netherlands: www.katholieknederland.nl/ / en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Catholicism_in_the_NetherlandsDutch Protestant church: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protestant_Church_in_the_Netherlandswww.protestantchurch.nl/Humanist Alliance: www.humanistischverbond.nl/www.sociaalforum.nl/spz/pub/website/main.php?obj_id=899846558www.psp92.nl/ (Pascifist Socialist party, follow up of en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pacifist_Socialist_Partywww.ncpn.nl/ (Marxist-leninist) Pro-Milosevic party! www.vcp.nu/ (Marxist- leninist) www.grenzeloos.org/sap/ (Trotskyist party) socialisme.nu/ (International socialists) en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_Peoples-Union (Peoples Nationalist Party) www.nvu.info/index.htmlwww.arabeuropean.org/index.php / www.ael.nl/ (Arab Nationalist) www.nationalistischevolksbeweging.nl/ movement which looks like the Dutch collaborationalist movement NSB en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Socialist_Movement_in_the_NetherlandsPieter
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Islam
Jul 30, 2008 12:35:23 GMT -7
Post by pieter on Jul 30, 2008 12:35:23 GMT -7
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