Poland’s role in the Holocaust

[Jaga]

this is a response to the article which accuses Poland for Jewish holocaust (link in the article to the previous one)

www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/letters/article4431225.ece

Sir, I was very saddened by the article “Two waves of immigration, Poles apart ” by Giles Coren (July 26). The issue of Polish-Jewish relations has been unfairly and deeply falsified in his emotional text. During the Second World War Poland was the target of the Nazi Germany’s aggression, and the Poles themselves were treated as the race of sub-humans. Any sort of assistance given to Jews was punished by death. Such assistance required heroism, as it was not only one’s own life that was put at stake, but also the lives of one’s family. Still, it is the Poles that make up the most of those awarded Israel’s Righteous Among the Nations honour.

[Atlantis5]

I was unable to access the article resulting in nothing of the writing and/or content.

But was with result of the man:

Name: Coren, Giles

Place of birth: Paddington, London England

Occupation: British Journalist/Broadcaster

Contributions:

Restaurant Critic for The Times {British News Paper}/Under Pseudonym-{ Professor Gideon Garter} writer of {The Intellectuals Guide To Fashion}/ Contributor of various Television Series.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giles_Coren

wordsaboutthings.wordpress.com/2008/07/24/giles-coren-rant-the-times/

Conclusion:

Mr. Coran has history record of professional writing/presentation of controversial subject matter. With this subject matter as another contribution with design as inflammatory in design and content. Not designed as historical accurate information.

Should be accepted as what it is-non sense.

Charles

[Jaga]

Hello Charles,

thanks for your note. Here is the article which shows Poles in a bad light:
www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/giles_coren/article4399669.ece

let me know whether you can access this article:

That is the difference between the two kinds of migration, you see. The economic and the humanitarian. We Corens are here, now, because the ancestors of these Poles now going home used to amuse themselves at Easter by locking Jews in the synagogue and setting fire to it. Harry didn't leave in the hope of finding a better life. Just a life. The option to return was not there for him, for obvious reasons, and by 1945 the Poland he had left did not exist anymore. My sympathy for the plight of the modern Polack is thus limited, and if England is not the land of milk and honey it appeared to them three or four years ago, then, frankly, they can clear off out of it.

[Atlantis5]

Jul 31, 2008 15:10:38 GMT -7 Jaga said:

Hello Charles,

thanks for your note. Here is the article which shows Poles in a bad light:
www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/giles_coren/article4399669.ece

let me know whether you can access this article:

That is the difference between the two kinds of migration, you see. The economic and the humanitarian. We Corens are here, now, because the ancestors of these Poles now going home used to amuse themselves at Easter by locking Jews in the synagogue and setting fire to it. Harry didn't leave in the hope of finding a better life. Just a life. The option to return was not there for him, for obvious reasons, and by 1945 the Poland he had left did not exist anymore. My sympathy for the plight of the modern Polack is thus limited, and if England is not the land of milk and honey it appeared to them three or four years ago, then, frankly, they can clear off out of it.

Thank you Jaga, for this was very thoughtful of you..Yes, I was able to access the url you have so kindly forwarded.

Upon reading, it presented a foundation of understanding of Mr. Coren. I do remember some thing of this sort from long past, not so sure exactly the source, I do not believe it was from early school studies of the war.

I was to reseach of the following url for my own information and to then share.

news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/1431339.stm

Although, there appears of some inconsistancies that have given cause for my self to research more. For one, for an action to have been enitiated, there must be an operations field action report. And this would be of {Hauptsturmfuehrer, Herman Schaper}.

Should be in records of the investigation.

Charles

[Atlantis5]

Jaga

Thought perhaps to share with some bits and pieces falling my way whilst in process of research. Perhaps would be of interest as of the following urls.

www.polandsholocaust.org/intro.html

The following perhaps are not pleasant, but as a person, I would tend to believe them as recorded in good faith.

The enitial url, is the preface of the presentation with chronilogical nummeration. For as a foundation of time saving. The there-after url is of the exact page of information pertenant to the subject.

www.jewishgen.org/Yizkor/jedwabne/Yedwabne.html

www.jewishgen.org/Yizkor/jedwabne/yed087.html#111

www.jewishgen.org/Yizkor/jedwabne/yed950.html


Charles

[uncltim]

Jaga,
This must be a European thing. I have never seen or heard of Poles being accused of the holocaust.

[kaima]

I read through the article and it comes across as quite propagandistic to me. The fellow's objective seems to be to tell his family story and release his frustration / prejudice and not to present a cohesive or reasoned story.

He confuses time lines and events of 1903, 1945 and this century and superficially presents the values as much the same and equivalent, seeming to presume that political leadership, ethnic mix and ethnic attitudes have been and remain hostile. He does include Yugoslavia and Lithuania as close, hostile neighbors in his scattergun approach.

The fellow has a lot of unresolved hostility toward Poles. I would not expect him to change his attitude in his lifetime, I am just surprised that a respectable newspaper would publish such poorly composed hatred.

Kai

[Marek]

I just find somewhat ironic but also fully understandable, that the article “The Perpetrators were Polish” published in Der Spiegel, May 28, 2001 as “Die Täter waren Polen” from a German magazine, calls Poles as the Polish people, but refers to the Germans as the Nazis. Almost as if they were not one and the same during the war, almost as if the Germans have nothing to do with the Nazis, but Poles somehow were and still are antisemitic.

What is also ironic is the name of the magazine itself. A mirror which Germans are not that kin on looking into and are happy to find any distraction from their own fear and blind obedience to one crazy televangelist who won their harts and minds in 1930s, preaching a crazy story about the superiority of the Aryan race.

Marek

[Atlantis5]

Aug 12, 2008 23:27:30 GMT -7 Marek said:

I just find somewhat ironic but also fully understandable, that the article “The Perpetrators were Polish” published in Der Spiegel, May 28, 2001 as “Die Täter waren Polen” from a German magazine, calls Poles as the Polish people, but refers to the Germans as the Nazis. Almost as if they were not one and the same during the war, almost as if the Germans have nothing to do with the Nazis, but Poles somehow were and still are antisemitic.

What is also ironic is the name of the magazine itself. A mirror which Germans are not that kin on looking into and are happy to find any distraction from their own fear and blind obedience to one crazy televangelist who won their harts and minds in 1930s, preaching a crazy story about the superiority of the Aryan race.

Marek

Thank you Marek for your speaking of your mind. For it displays of your intrinsic feelings of us {Germans}, it is best to usually speak out that of your mind.

Although I am not so happy with your mindset, perhaps disappointed as you are a person of today {2008},but as displayed, with still the mind-set of the post war years.

Of course, the publication {Der Spiegel} means {The Mirror}, every thing must have a name, and this publication is not so different.

In as much of namen {Nazi} of course this political ruling force of our country in those years were us, or who would you think to believe who they were?

And yes of course also have I to read {Die Täter waren Polen} for it is true.

Our countries are not perfect, for our countries are populated with imperfect beings. We all are subject to our weaknesses and that of our respective governments. Your Poland is not different in as much to my Germany. We must do what we must with what we have, for the task that is set out in-front of us. For at the end of day, we know not our payment.

Charles

[Marek]

Hi Charles,

I have not given much thought of what I feel about the Germans in general until I read that article. Well, growing up as a child going to school I did think that Germans are generally evil. Can you blame me after learning the history of WWII in school and listening to my grandparents?

But before moving to Canada I lived in Germany for two years. I have made some friends there and as a teenager fallen in love and out of love. I worked there for one year in a construction company for a man who was actually officially retired, but had a "small" tax free business on the side. He was really nice and I did find out from others that during the war he was drafted when he was only 16 or 17 and captured by Russians on the Eastern front.

What I also remember is that the topic of the War, whether at school or work, was kind of taboo. I guess it was best not to bring it up. I fully realize that no one, on either side, would want to relive over and over again such a tragedy.

At the same time, I was learning German from a book with a title "German over all other languages" and the text book to history was showing western Poland as German territory under temporary Polish administration. I am not kidding and that was in 1989. So I guess when it comes to WWII the school curriculum was somewhat different form the one I was exposed to.

When I read the interview from Der Spiegel, the question of who killed whom aside for now, it seem that omitting to openly say that despite how brain washed and terrorized Germans were, or some segments of the German population, Poles were Poles and Germans were Germans and not some mystical, marginal group - the Nazis.

I think that somehow the term has become very convenient, and with respect to the article, very skillfully used by the author.

I am not sure what intrinsic feelings for Germans you see in me Charles. I think I can say with some confidence what intrinsic feelings accompany me as I write. Those are feelings of certain urgency and concern for the world I live in and will leave for my children to live in. People, Poles, Germans, Americans, will keep on repeating the same mistakes and regain old attitudes if they do not face the reality of their existence.

And what is more frustrating is that living in North American or Europe we have the luxury of actually being able to do that. Europeans are very skilled at criticizing the Americans the reverse is true also. We are a lot more reluctant to look into the mirror.

Marek

[Atlantis5]

Hello Marek

Thank you for your very kind and thoughtful reply. I was with hope that you would reply, but was not entirely sure.

It was refreshing to hear your views for you are very logical in thinking, also may I add, very well educated with your travels.

So you worked in my country in construction,,that would give you much opportunity in travel and association with family working people. They usually are very out spoken on a personal basis.

Kai also is a veteran of the post-war construction business. He has a great many stories of digging up an un-exploded bomb and disposal. I with great hope, that you were not exposed to any of those darn things. They are still found in various areas and disposed of. Even with the years that have passed, they are still live with detonators that are still operational.

Yes, many of the veterans do not speak so much of the war years. For the most, it is a bad memory to place in the rear of the mind. I was not touched physically by the war. For Auntie {Tante} and my self lived with relatives in Dänemark from 1944 onto long after the war was over.

I see you live in Ottawa..I was in that area on business whilst living and working in Saskatchewan {Regina} near the RCMP training academy.

It is good to see you Marek, you must enjoy your visits more often on the forum..

Charles