For Poland, It Is Cold War Over Again!

[nathanael]

Russia is bullying the United States. European Union is sucking the teet of Mother Russia via the Baltic pipeline. Georgia, Ukraine, Poland, Czech Republic, Latvia, Lithuania, Rumania, and Estonia ... tremble! They feel betrayed by President Bush, NATO, European Union! What does this portent? I should be sleeping for it is past Midnight. But I feel like vomiting! This is appeasement a la Chamberlain! I can't believe how cowardly the Free World has become! All we hear from Berlusconi, Sarcozy, Merkel, Kouchner, that "we have no leverage." England is also wabbling (including Mr. Brown). Russia insists that "it's all Georgia's fault." But, how about these countries whose fault it is not? Are they now going to be living in perennial fear that it might happen to them, as well? What kind of world have we inherited after the fall of the Berlin Wall? Is this not what was happening in 1938, when Hitler grabbed the Sudetenland, as France, England, and the U.S. stood by? Is this the partnership we want with Russia, a partnership in crime?

[jimpres]

Nathanael,

Those countries should feel betrayed by the European union and the US. But the US is a long way from those countries and is tied up with other difficulties. And if the US does try to help it will be alone as in most cases. The EU wants the Russian oil and will not back any move by the US.
And the US can ill afford to be the world policeman.
I smells of 1938, the year I was born, and that is not good.

Jim

[karl]

Sept 2, 2008 13:43:36 GMT -7 nathanael said:

Russia is bullying the United States. European Union is sucking the teet of Mother Russia via the Baltic pipeline. Georgia, Ukraine, Poland, Czech Republic, Latvia Lituania, Rumania, and Estonia ... tremble! They feel betrayed by President Bush, NATO, European Union! What does this portent? I should be sleeping for it is past Midnight. But I feel like vomiting! This is appeasement a la Chamberlain! I can't believe how cowardly the Free World has become! All we hear from Berlusconi, Sarcozy, Merkel, Kouchner, that "we have no leverage." England is also wabbling (including Mr. Brown). Russia insists that "it's all Georgia's fault." But, how about these countries whose fault it is not? Are they now going to be living in perennial fear that it might happen to them, as well? What kind of world have we inherited after the fall of the Berlin Wall? Is this not what was happening in 1938, when Hitler grabbed the Sudetenland, as France, England, and the U.S. stood by? Is this the partnership we want with Russia, a partnership in crime?

My good heavens! If I was not to know better, your post would surly frighten the boots off my cat, if I owned one..

The countries you have made of mention, are those formerly of the old Soviet block countries of long ago, and of course, they will have an ax to grind, for it would so seem they live in the far past to cover up their currant failures.

Business, is what it is, business. We may not enjoy to smell of the other fellows shorts, but the money smells the same on the way to the bank.

In as much as of the Baltic pipe. Well line up now, the wailing wall is open for business, for it is much late to re-think for previous failure, to come up with partnership co- funding as partnership equals. For some time past, this was the common offer for the Baltic countries. But, when the question was fielded for project sharing of expense in research/design and construction, the silence was very obvious and deafening. But, once the project was real and currant. The howling of protest would drowned out an entire covey of wolves.

Russia needs Europe {West}. For trade is a two way street. The energy exports are the life flow of business, period, as in this case. Russia is a tremendious consumer of technology, for it is so very vast and complexe with many issues of infrastruture do to the large variation of climate.

The west {being that of Germany/France and Italy} with the UK, are very important trade partners to Russia, as a consumer of any and all in areas as exampled: precision manufacturing machine tools/cosmetics/petro-chemicals, all things that are of an industrial export exchange.

tinyurl.com/6lyqrd

It is apparent and present, the art of diplomacy is an un-known. For of course their will be loud shouts of dis-approval from the countries of the EU. For it is to add some colour to the disapproval of The American Government with the Georgia situation.

Have you asked of your self for why? For why would the Americans be so intent upon Georgia?

For one example: Asked them of their former agreement with the Georgian government of landing rights of their military aircraft for the prosecution of their war in Afghanistan.

One more question you might asked of them: How would the landing agreement with Georgia differ to them from what they have at present in their base agreements with Turkey?

Diplomatics, are a very devious group. For they will kiss babies one moment, then following that moment, steal their candy.

For this is not so different with the Diplomatics at present of the EU. It is a manner of consoling the Baltic countries for the present. Then once the shouts/cries of indignation has been satisfied. It will be a return to business once again, and that is making money.

{This has nothing to do with events so long past with the moldy argument of year: 1938. For that is simply inflammatory rhetoric designed propaganda. These are the tools used by those engaged in the field of protestic groups of anti-government}. One might just as well return to the days of {Avalon Projekt 1925} for all the sense this would make.

Karl

[nathanael]

Your comment is thought provoking, but it does not exhaust my concerns. The concerns I voiced are what I hear across Poland. I see it first hand in the media each day. Polish President is even more concerned and blunt. There are frantic talks of possible military alliance between the Baltic countries. Ukraine is saber rattling. Obviously, and naturally so, you reflect a less engaged opinion from the distance behind the ocean! I do not blame you, but you are only partially correct. Neither do I blame the European Union. But the lessons of history should never be forgotten. The situation of Georgia has changed the geopolitical world as we knew it. There is a new fear in the Baltic countries! There is a newly found cockiness in Russia. There is uncertainty if the U.S. will defend Poland! All this didn't exist before the Georgia episode! The trust of my comment was not to highlight the unresponsiveness of the United States, or the EU, but to signalize the new angst in the satellite nations that needs urgent attention!

[karl]

Sept 3, 2008 7:29:23 GMT -7 nathanael said:

Your comment is thought provoking, but it does not exhaust my concerns. The concerns I voiced are what I hear across Poland. I see it first hand in the media each day. Polish President is even more concerned and blunt. There are frantic talks of possible military alliance between the Baltic countries. Ukraine is saber rattling. Obviously, and naturally so, you reflect a less engaged opinion from the distance behind the ocean! I do not blame you, but you are only partially correct. Neither do I blame the European Union. But the lessons of history should never be forgotten. The situation of Georgia has changed the geopolitical world as we knew it. There is a new fear in the Baltic countries! There is a newly found cockiness in Russia. There is uncertainty if the U.S. will defend Poland! All this didn't exist before the Georgia episode! The trust of my comment was not to highlight the unresponsiveness of the United States, or the EU, but to signalize the new angst in the satellite nations that needs urgent attention!

Nathanael

I have understood you very well and you are correct on many points of this of various issue. In-as-much to my currant protection of a vast ocean of distance, yes this is true, but what also remains true: Is my time will run the course, then I must return home.

In-as-much to Poland and the Baltic countries, yes, very much are their concerns valid. And yes, Russia has gained a new resolve of firmness in all things.

To the Baltic countries and Poland, to be fore-warned, is to be prepared. Poland has gained much ground in up-date of military equipment and their military forces. But, this is not enough, for it is of only new paint on an old fence.

What is missing is this: A consortium of Eastern Block States. For this is the area of deep concern to Russian leadership. If once this is initiated, then it is up to the West to carry forth the concept of acceptance with support.

Poland turned away from the EU of their West with the alliances with The US. In as so, goes also, the commonality of military support. Russian leadership know this, for it becomes a chink in the armour that they would face in event of hostilities.

The Russian are hunters, they will smell weakness and fear, then turn this to their advantage and use it against the Baltic States. It is most un-advantageous to display a weakness whilst dealing with the Russians. They {Russians} recognize this, and will capitalize in as much as the field will accept.

There is a difference between displaying strength from that of antaganization, I do believe you are cognizant of that difference. But, this has what has brung this to what it is today with Russia and the Baltics, antaganization.

For at least, Poland has not committed the mistakes of some of their neighbours, and that is to give nationality to ethnic Russians living within their borders. For to do so is a very grave mistake as exampled by:

Ukraine

Latvia

Estonia

Moldova

Kazakhstan

South Ossetia has now paid the price for this mistake.

To understand the Russian mind set, is rather straightforward and this mind set is also of their policy. And that is the policy of {Protection} and that is the protection of ethnic Russians living in these states, rather or not they are citizens is non-void. It is under this pretense of protection that Russians act as their justification for their aggressive actions.

In-as-much to the currant bluster of nuclear weapons, yes of course, this is true. But, what is equally true is: For some years, funding has been scarce for their {Russian} military in respekt to new designs/production and equal expense,storage.

The Fleet ported in Kaliningrad has for some years been close to de-commission as outdated and neglected. Much of that equipment will require re-build and overhaul for any heavy action.

What this equates to is this: Time--- That is time for Poland to invest with production into stand by military operations. Please to understand this would entail the Americans for basing Nuclear weapons in Poland. Not only is this to increase the screams from the Russians, it will bring to their mind that perhaps it was not wise to base such a large important fleet in Kaliningrad. For it would take not so much of one small tactical nuclear fielded weapon to make void, of that very expensive fleet.

This is what the Russian mind set understands, equal might, to be met by a superior force, and that is their hope to always have.

The Russian people are a hardy people, very tough with high survival traits. A good people to know as partnership in common ventures. This is what has been missing with the Polish, the failure to partnership. But, so be it..

Karl

[nathanael]

I believe in peace, but I do not believe in appeasement. I don't know where exactly the line between the two crosses, but there is such line. I am not against Russia nor anyone: I want to unite, not to divide. But recent statements from Russia rattle my spirit and mind. Russia has boldly asserted "it has what President Dmitry Medvedev called 'privileged interests' in its sphere of influence, which includes the former Soviet states in the South Caucasus." This is Cold War rhetoric. It is like saying that we have privileged interests in Mexico or Canada, given our proximity. We have none: those are sovereign countries! This is why I am so unsettled about the recent events in Georgia. Russia must understand that we are living in a new epoch in which "spheres of influence" are a dangerous relic of the past!

[nathanael]

This week, Konstantin Kosachyov, head of the foreign affairs committee in Russia's lower house of parliament, accused Cheney of trying to forge an "anti-Russian axis: ""It's Cheney who was behind all recent events on the former Soviet turf." For me, it is irrelevant who did what at this stage. The only thing that figures prominently in the days ahead, is the right of the satellite countries to live free and independent from Russia. Nothing short of this right should be accepted by the free world! If Americans can abstain from bullying their neighbors, Canada and Mexico, why Russia can't? Furthermore, I don't like the word "turf." What does this mean? A Big Brother stuff? Poland, Ukraine, Georgia, Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia, Bulgaria, and Azerbaijan are now free and independent nations! They aren't anybody's "turf"!

[ducq]

"I don't like the word "turf." What does this mean? A Big Brother stuff? Poland, Ukraine, Georgia, Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia, Bulgaria, and Azerbaijan are now free and independent nations! They aren't anybody's "turf"!"

I agree with you nathanael, but while we're looking at terms, what exactly is "independent"? For a sovereign country to stand alone, it needs full autonomy in the three functions of government; defense, law, and infrastructure. The measure that a nation is dependent in any of these three might be the measure of its lack of true independence.

Rabbits don't share holes with foxes for a reason. Or if they do, there had better be some pretty good diplomacy in place.

Just thoughts.

ducq

[nathanael]

I agree with Ducq on the crucial need for optimal and forward-looking diplomacy! That's my whole point: something is amiss with the recent decisions by our leaders!The system to be deployed in Poland consists of anti-missile interceptors, not "nuclear missiles." Still, I was among those who opposed this deployment after realizing that the pay-off was not worthy of the risk! I am a Polish-American, after all, and I do not want Poland getting in trouble for nothing! Russia had proposed Azerbaijan as an alternative site for deployment, which was rejected by the U.S. I didn't particularly like it, but I didn't reject it. I am not a military strategist. But it seems obvious to me (something the media doesn't mention and I want to know why. Why do I want to know? Because in this "hidden detail" is encapsulated the reason why our strategists and policy makers have made a mistake!), that from military-strategic standpoint a non-nuclear interceptor is as dangerous as a nuclear missile. Why? Because this "innocent interceptor" has the capability to knock down all Russian nuclear missiles coming towards Europe from the east! This is what has rattled Putin, apparently. And this is why the Administration is so "deflated" on Georgia now, as if it were treading on quicksand. In fact, in Washington, US officials have emphasized that the aid package to Georgia "includes no military assistance," and the Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice appeared to carefully choose her words when she said the aid was meant to "help Georgia sustain itself" – rather than to defend itself. All this is a result of not well thought through policies! For me, the whole U.S. policy is critically unthoughtful! We need better minds, or we will continue to stumble from mistake to mistake (remember Kosovo, where a foolish, fatal precedent was set for subsequent secessions?). I cried my heart out: Don't do it! What the Russians are signaling, is that "the interceptor system will be targeted soon it is operable." I do not exonerate the Russians, far from it. But I don't like this saber rattling, and this new sword of Damocles being hang over Poland! I cannot understand who was advising President Shakashvili to start a fight he could not win. The Russian convoy could have easily been wiped out in the whereabouts of the Roki tunnel ... if only the Georgians had the forward planning and intelligence! This would have gone into history as a monumental victory - a Goliath versus David kind of thing! Imagine a thousand thanks destroyed on the ground by a half dozen planes. Instead, because of fatal mistakes, many innocent people died and the Georgians made fools of themselves! All this is a result of bad advising! And the bad advising is a symptom of crippled critical thinking by our "liberal" schools! Changes must be made, or America will be in deep trouble in the years ahead!