nathanael
Cosmopolitan
: “Die Wahrheit macht frei und ist das Fundament der Einheit (John Paul II)
Posts: 636
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Post by nathanael on Nov 13, 2008 12:09:50 GMT -7
As a theologian, I propose the following solution to the three main points of disagreement betweeen the Catholics and the Orthodox, namely, the primacy of Peter, the filioque, and the disputed question when the Spirit exactly enters the Eucharist, in epiclesis. My sense is that all three dogmas are inocuous theologically, in the sense that they are minor things. Jesus did say to Peter, "you are the rock on which I will build my Church." Peter is that Rock! The Orthodox do not dispute the words of Jesus! All they do, is to claim that "Apostle Andrew came first." He did, chronologically, but after Jesus' words, Peter took charge. As for the filioque, it is one of the most stupidest arguments I have ever heard as theologian. The filioque argument is like that. The filioque argument has been used to split the two churches! It was used politically, in a childish kind of way! For substantially, no human being on earth will ever be able to gauge from what exact Person the Spirit departs first. Why? Because God is One in Three Persons! We do not know the configuration of those Persons, which is closer to us than the other. I would bet that they are equidistant! Why? Because in the Perfect God there is no distance! ... This is why Catholics prefer the filioque (from both), rather than the Orthodox assertion that the Spirit comes from the Father first! Lastly, the dispute about the "timing" of epiclesis - or descent of the Spirit on the Host - is even more outlandish and silly! Again, no one in the world, mind or instrument, can ever measure the exact timing! My solution to this last dispute has always been: put the epiclesis in the exact midst of consecration ... and end the dispute! End of story! There are other minor, non-dogmatic "disagreements" on the question of deification of human beings. Another silly argument! Why? Because both Catholics and Orthodox agree on the need of holiness ... which is a deification process! It's time that we take a deep breath, and declare all disagreements null for the sake of Christ!
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Post by pieter on Nov 15, 2008 6:43:31 GMT -7
Nathanael, And what are in your Catholic theologian eyes the differances between the Catholic church and the Calvinist and Lutheranian Protestant churches. I come from a country whuch for a long time was geographically split between Protestant or Reformed area and Catholic area's. I have never fully understood the differances between the churches, except that my Calvinist compatriots, friends and colleages had churches without images and sculptures of Jesus-Christ, Mary, the Aposteles and the Saints. Christianity was split for many centuries in the West of Europe too, many wars were fought, blood was shed, churches and monastries plundered, burnt or reshaped as Protestant churches. Today you stil see the cutural and religious differances between the Catholics and Protestants in this secularised nation in which the language is filled with biblical elements. We catholics do not have the Predestination dogma of the Calvinists and therefor the Catholic faith is by some seen as the free faith or the enlightened faith, because the cultural elements, the celebration (party) element and the many ceremonies and rituals. The Calvinist faith is a more democratic faith, because it lacks the hierarchy of the Vatican, the basic democracy of the Elders who choose the minister out of their midst. But when I became older and visited some Protestant services in differant parts of my country I saw and witnessed that the core message of the Calvinists was the same message as the christian message of the Catholic church. The Calvinist are only more sober in their services and the core message of their services is always the lord christ, and the scriptures of the old testamony next to that of the New testamony. But stil being raised Catholic I will probably never understand some of the Protestant elements or traditions my Protestant brothers and sisters carry with them. The Protestant bible had a differant literairy stile than the Roman Catholic bible, but the content was the same. But words matter! Pieter Links: www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/495422/Reformation / pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reformacja / www.reformacja.pl/pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protestantyzm / en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protestantism www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/90293/Calvinism / pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalwinizmen.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reformed_churcheswww.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/1310018/Anglican-Communionwww.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/351950/Martin-Lutherwww.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/277400/Jan-Hus
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Post by pieter on Nov 15, 2008 6:49:41 GMT -7
Orthodox christians will never obey or merge with Rome if Rome stays the centre, if Christianity will unite, the will be a new centre. And what do you think about the Anglican church, that is a church which is very near to the Catholic faith, but which was split due to royal English reasons? The oldest christian churches in my view are the Coptic churches, the Armenian, Ethiopian and Assyrian churches. Due to persecutions and terror these churches are booming in the West, in Europe and the USA.
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Post by pieter on Nov 15, 2008 9:17:07 GMT -7
Distinctive Orthodox BeliefsAs in all of Christianity, doctrine is important in Eastern Orthodoxy. Orthodox Christians attach great importance to the Bible, the conclusions of the Seven Ecumenical Councils, and right (" orthodox") belief. However, the Eastern Churches approach religious truth differently than the Western Churches. For Orthodox Christians, truth must be experienced personally. There is less focus on the exact definition of religious truth and more on the practical and personal experience of truth in the life of the individual and the church. Precise theological definition, when it occurs, is for the purpose of excluding error. This emphasis on personal experience of truth flows into Orthodox theology, which has a rich heritage. Especially in the first millenium of Christian history, the Eastern Church produced significant theological and philosophical thought. In the Western churches, both Catholic and Protestant, sin, grace, and salvation are seen primarily in legal terms. God gave humans freedom, they misused it and broke God's commandments, and now deserve punishment. God's grace results in forgiveness of the transgression and freedom from bondage and punishment. The Eastern churches see the matter in a different way. For Orthodox theologians, humans were created in the image of God and made to participate fully in the divine life. The full communion with God that Adam and Eve enjoyed meant complete freedom and true humanity, for humans are most human when they are completely united with God.The result of sin, then, was a blurring of the image of God and a barrier between God and man. The situation in which mankind has been ever since is an unnatural, less human state, which ends in the most unnatural aspect: death. Salvation, then, is a process not of justification or legal pardon, but of reestablishing man's communion with God. This process of repairing the unity of human and divine is sometimes called " deification." This term does not mean that humans become gods but that humans join fully with God's divine life. The Eastern Orthodox view of the Trinity also differs somewhat from that of the Christian West. In its Christology, Orthodoxy tends to emphasize the divine, preexistent nature of Christ, whereas the West focuses more on his human nature. However, both East and West affirm Christ's full humanity and full divinity as defined by the ecumenical councils. In fact, Christ's humanity is also central to the Orthodox faith, in the doctrine that the divine became human so that humanity might be raised up to the divine life. The process of being reunited to God, made possible by Christ, is accomplished by the Holy Spirit. The Spirit plays a central role in Orthodox worship: the liturgy usually begins with a prayer to the Spirit and invocations made prior to sacraments are addressed to the Spirit. It is in the view of the Holy Spirit that Orthodox theology differs from Western theology, and although the difference might now seem rather techinical and abstract, it was a major contributor to the parting of East from West in the 11th century. This dispute is known as the Filioque Controversy, as it centers on the Latin word filioque (" and from the Son"), which was added to the Nicene Creed in Spain in the 6th century. The original creed proclaimed only that the Holy Spirit " proceeds from the Father." The purpose of the addition was to reaffirm the divinity of the Son, but Eastern theologians objected both to the unilateral editing of a creed produced by an ecumenical council and to the edit itself. For Eastern Christians, both the Spirit and the Son have their origin in the Father.Source: www.religionfacts.com/christianity/denominations/orthodoxy.htm
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Post by jimpres on Nov 15, 2008 11:35:58 GMT -7
Pieter,
I saw an Orthodox minister from the Ukraine and he was saying they are getting friendlier to Rome. The Byzantine connection occured because of the bad communications back then. So they could unite. Time will tell. He was on EWTN He explained the Eastern Orthodox, Ukrainian Orthodox ext.
Jim
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Post by karl on Nov 15, 2008 11:57:33 GMT -7
Nathanael, Pieter and Jim
In-as-much, I am Lutheran, with little of little to do with Katholicism, I do hold a proposition of thought. Perhaps as a test of faith, perhaps not, it is only to the beholder of that of belief.
What for instance, we as little people running about and conducting what little people do to conduct.
We die, and there is nothing! For then what? Well, in that case we do as what dead people do, nothing, for we are then nothing, for the dead know not, nor feel not, nor think not, for we are dead, and the dead are what they are, dead. It is then for the bugs, smell and what ever.
Well then, your magnificent of robes of colour with candles of light, bring us as the dead to life?
For in the process of dieing, we as the dead, have felt of 1st our extremities of our bodies, klicken off, bit by bit to our upper most chest, then of to our chest as the cold begins to seep rather swiftly to our brain. Then the roaring as of a waterfall within our ears, then nothing, for we are dead.
So where is your grandeur? Will you bring us back to life???
Karl
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nathanael
Cosmopolitan
: “Die Wahrheit macht frei und ist das Fundament der Einheit (John Paul II)
Posts: 636
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Post by nathanael on Nov 16, 2008 4:20:46 GMT -7
I wish that all Christians reconciled today!I must mince my words when talking about this complicated issue in a short post. It is true that the Orthodox and Protestants are slowly beginning to see the Light of Christ ... to which we all must be reconciled. The issue is amazingly simple, but the devil stands on the way; that's for sure! Each denomination has different understanding and set of "sacraments." The language used is also misleading. Some post-Reformation denominations (including Protestants and other Christian denominations who reject that label) do not maintain a sacramental theology, although they may practice the rites themselves. Here the word "sacrament" is substituted for "rite." These rites may be variously labelled "traditions" or – in the case of Baptism and the Eucharist ("the Lord's Supper") – "ordinances," since they are seen as having been ordained by Christ to be permanently observed by the church. The Lutherans will thus have three "rites", Baptism, the Sacrament of the Altar, and Confession. Most other Protestant denominations affirm only two "sacraments," some sacramental and others "non-sacramental," although they may also practice some or all of the other traditional sacraments as well, while not acknowledging the action of divine grace in the external form. This is also true about the identity of the pastor. Like Catholics, Protestants have "pastors" and "priests." But the meaning of priesthood varies with each denomination. In sum, at the present stage of sacramental theology, each "separated" church" is separated in a different degree, and each has a sacramental theology evolved differently.While I concur that our priesthood and sacraments are different, we must not sharply dismiss the so-called "other Christians" but rather wait and hope that our theologies merge into one, the sooner the better!
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Post by pieter on Nov 16, 2008 6:03:38 GMT -7
Pieter, I saw an Orthodox minister from the Ukraine and he was saying they are getting friendlier to Rome. The Byzantine connection occured because of the bad communications back then. So they could unite. Time will tell. He was on EWTN He explained the Eastern Orthodox, Ukrainian Orthodox ext. Jim That is good news Jim!
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Post by pieter on Nov 16, 2008 6:27:01 GMT -7
I wish that all Christians reconciled today!I must mince my words when talking about this complicated issue in a short post. It is true that the Orthodox and Protestants are slowly beginning to see the Light of Christ ... to which we all must be reconciled. The issue is amazingly simple, but the devil stands on the way; that's for sure! Each denomination has different understanding and set of "sacraments." The language used is also misleading. Some post-Reformation denominations (including Protestants and other Christian denominations who reject that label) do not maintain a sacramental theology, although they may practice the rites themselves. Here the word "sacrament" is substituted for "rite." These rites may be variously labelled "traditions" or – in the case of Baptism and the Eucharist ("the Lord's Supper") – "ordinances," since they are seen as having been ordained by Christ to be permanently observed by the church. The Lutherans will thus have three "rites", Baptism, the Sacrament of the Altar, and Confession. Most other Protestant denominations affirm only two "sacraments," some sacramental and others "non-sacramental," although they may also practice some or all of the other traditional sacraments as well, while not acknowledging the action of divine grace in the external form. This is also true about the identity of the pastor. Like Catholics, Protestants have "pastors" and "priests." But the meaning of priesthood varies with each denomination. In sum, at the present stage of sacramental theology, each "separated" church" is separated in a different degree, and each has a sacramental theology evolved differently.While I concur that our priesthood and sacraments are different, we must not sharply dismiss the so-called "other Christians" but rather wait and hope that our theologies merge into one, the sooner the better! I have the same desire and has always talked and plead for unity amongst chrisitians, but the cultural differances are to big sometimes. An example is the unified Dutch protestant church in which the Hervormde Church, Gereformeerde Churches and the Lutheranians merged into one Protestant Church Netherlands. Orthodox Calvinist churches both Hervormd and Gereformeerd did not feel at home in this unified church an stepped out of it to form their own Herstelde (Repaired) Hervormde Church. So even amongst the Calvinist Reformed Protestants themselves there are cultural differances that make unity difficult. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doleantiepl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trzy_Formy_Jednościpl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kanony_z_Dorten.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_Reformed_Churchen.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reformed_Churches_in_the_Netherlandsen.wikipedia.org/wiki/Netherlands_Reformed_Congregations
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Post by pieter on Nov 16, 2008 6:45:43 GMT -7
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nathanael
Cosmopolitan
: “Die Wahrheit macht frei und ist das Fundament der Einheit (John Paul II)
Posts: 636
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Post by nathanael on Nov 16, 2008 8:08:55 GMT -7
Peter, millions of pages have been written about Luther, so what I can add here is just a tiny scratch on the surface of the ocean. I think that, in the U.S., the main sources of interest would be John Dillinger's Martin Luther and Roland H. Binton's Here I Stand (Hie Stehe Ich). Long ago, I have studies both books extensively. For the moment I can offer this synthetic comparison of the doctrine of Martin Luther and the doctrine of the Council of Trent, as regards justification (Source: H. Denzinger)
JUSTIFICATION TRENT V. LUTHER LUTHER: human nature is completely corrupted; human will is unable to make good works TRENT: human will is weakened; freedom of freedom of making good works is not lost completely [DH 1555, 1557 ff.] LUTHER: concupiscence is sin and the source of all sins TRENT: becomes a sin when man is submitted to it, committing an actual sin [DH 1515] LUTHER: man in front of God, when in process of justification, is completely passive TRENT: man, moved by Grace, cooperates in justification. He accepts justifying action of God [ DH 1554 ] LUTHER: grace of justification is the forgiving love of God (exclusively Divine reality) TRENT: it is the reality which is present in the human soul, which renews interior man [DH 1561]
LUTHER: on faith and justification: justification is an effect of entrustment sola fide to the Divine mercy. God does not consider any more sins
TRENT: faith and entrustment can justify only when they are conected with hope and charity, moreover with a human active cooperation with Grace [DH 1559; DH 1562] LUTHER: force of faith is that it gives certitude of salvation TRENT: faith alone does not give us certitude of salvation (cf. Didache) [DH 1563 ff.]
LUTHER on merit: human works are not worthy of merit TRENT: thanks to Grace, human works are worthy of merit [DH 1581 ff.] CONCLUSION LUTHER: essence of justification consists in simply recognizing that one is justified -“you just are”
TRENT: to be justified, you must cooperate with the Grace of the theological virtues NOTE: I am not saying that Luther was wrong on all counts. But if Luther were right that "all concupiscence is sin," how in the world would he have justified extases, where the entire soul participates with concupiscence in a total love of God? Would he say that "we better forget the Commandment "to love with all soul, heart, and strength" (Dt 6:4)? Or would he say that "we forget about loving with the whole soul"? The moral is: Luther's 95 theses were forged in anger (a documented fact), ... and anger distorted his thinking on this issue tragically!
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Post by jimpres on Nov 16, 2008 8:13:56 GMT -7
Pieter, Here is a link to the Ukrainian church who has a link to Rome. So they are recognizing one another. www.acswebnetworks.com/ukrainianic/I think hard times here in the US will bring many back to the church. Many have left over the last many decades. jim
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nathanael
Cosmopolitan
: “Die Wahrheit macht frei und ist das Fundament der Einheit (John Paul II)
Posts: 636
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Post by nathanael on Nov 16, 2008 8:39:53 GMT -7
I agree that something is not well with the Christian unity in the United States. Below is a sample how the U.S. churches are divided, based on the example of Kodiak Island:________________________________________ Kodiak, Alaska Church Directory• Assembly of God 3416 Woodland Drive. Sunday School at 9:30 a.m., Worship 10:30 a.m., Evening Service 6:30 p.m. Pastor Rex Leath. Phone: 486-3894 • Berean Baptist Church 1216 Ismailov St. Sunday School: 9:45 a.m. Worship Service: 11 a.m. & 6 p.m. Oasis High School Worship Service every Wed. 7 p.m. Jr. High Youth Group every Tuesday night 6:30 p.m. High School Youth Group every Sunday night 7:15 p.m. Pastor Mark Kernan, Youth Pastor Matt Perez: 486-4847. Web Page: kodiakberean.com Web site: www.kodiakberean.comE-mail: berean@gci.net Phone: 486-8891 • Christian Science Society Corner of Rezanof Dr. and Carolyn Ave., Sunday Morning, 10 a.m., Sunday School 10 a.m., Wednesday Testimonial Meeting 7 p.m. Reading Room Hours: Sat., 12:30 - 3 p.m. and Wednesday 5:30 - 7 p.m. Radio Sentinel Sunday, 9 a.m. KVOK-AM. • Church of Christ 3457 Spruce Cape Rd., Sunday Morning Bible Classes at 10 a.m. and Worship at 11 a.m. Communion every Sunday. Sunday evening Bible study at 6 p.m. & Wednesday evening at 7 p.m. Phone: 486-8216 or 486-4487 • Church of the Nazarene Located at Maple and Selief, Sunday School 9:45 a.m. Worship service 11 a.m. Check out our Web page www.kodiaknazarene.com. 486-5345. Web site: kodiaknazarene.nazarenelink.netE-mail: kodiaknazarene@gci.net Phone: 486-5345 • Community Baptist Church 216 Mill Bay Rd., Sunday school 9:45 a.m. Worship service 11 a.m. Communion Services first Sunday each month. Community prayer meetings, Thursdays at noon. Pastor Todd Putney. Call 486-3458 or e-mail to cbcchurch@gci.net kodiakcbc.netWeb site: kodiakcbc.netE-mail: cbcchurch@gci.net Phone: (907) 486-3458 • Family Federation for World Peace & Unification 1936 Selief. Worship Service: 1st and 3rd Sunday, 11 a.m. Pastor Nelson Mira. Call 486-8140, or e-mail Kodiak@familyads.net Phone: 486-8140 • Frontier Southern Baptist Church 1910 Rezanof Dr., Sunday Morning Coffee & Fellowship 9:30 a.m., Bible Study 9:45 a.m., Worship 10:45 a.m., Evening Services: Sunday New Testament Survey at 6 p.m., Wednesday Prayer Meeting at 7 p.m. Pastor Gary Elmore. Call 486-3589. E-mail office@frontiersouthernbaptist.com or look online at www.frontiersouthernbaptist.comWeb site: www.frontiersouthernbaptist.comE-mail: office@frontiersouthernbaptist.com Phone: 486-3589 • Holy Resurrection Orthodox Cathedral Saturday: Vigil 5 p.m., Sunday Divine Liturgy 9 a.m., Thursday Akathist to St. Herman 6 p.m. Any questions, call 486-3854. Priest, Father Innocent Dresdow, 486-5532. Phone: 486-5532 • Holy Trinity Lutheran Church (WELS) Call 486-4286 for recorded message for worship time and place, worship times vary from Sunday mornings to Sunday evenings. Sunday school available. Please call for more information. Internet worship available: shepherd-of-the-hills.com Phone: 486-4286 • Kodiak Bible Chapel Island Lake Road. Sunday School 9:30 a.m., Worship at 10:45 a.m., Evening service 6 p.m. Wednesday Services: Prayer, Youth Group & AWANA. Pastor Mark Nymeyer. Web site: home.gci.net/~kodiakbiblechapel/E-mail: kbchapel@gci.net Phone: 486-5219 • Kodiak Christian Fellowship 2320 Mill Bay Rd. Worship service at 10 a.m., Sunday. Wednesday Home Fellowships 7 p.m. Youth Fellowships 8 p.m. Pastor Alan Ryden. Phone: 486-3591 • Kodiak Filipino Assembly of God 3416 Woodland Dr. Sunday School 9:30 a.m., Worship Service 5 p.m. Pastor Jeremias Banito. Phone: 486-2324 • Kodiak Native New Life Fellowship Meets in lower auditorium of Community Baptist Church, 216 Mill Bay Rd. Sundays, 6:00 p.m. Home Bible Studies. Contact Alan or Linda Ross. Phone: 486-2933 • Kodiak Samoan Assembly of God Afternoon service 1:30 p.m. Pastor Posini Palasi Isaako, 3416 Woodland Dr. Phone: 486-8161 • Kodiak United Pentecostal Church Home Bible studies are available for individuals or groups. Also, please contact us with requests for prayer. David or Mechelle Bradbury. Web site: www.kodiakchurch.orgE-mail: bradbury@kodiakchurch.org Phone: 907-486-1748 • River of Life Christian Fellowship Int'l 2050 Selief Ln. Sunday worship service 4 p.m., Monday bible study 7 p.m., Friday Praise & Worship service 7:30 p.m. Pastor Emma Gonzalez, 539-5167. E-mail: e_gonzalez610@hotmail.com Phone: (907) 539-5167 Fax: (907) 486-5931 • Sabbath Christian Fellowship Meeting on Saturdays for worship and fellowship. Chldren's Bible Club from 9:30-10:30 a.m. Praise and worship at 11 a.m. 326 Center Ave. St. 90B (downstairs in the Subway building.) E-mail: kozak@alaska.com Phone: 487-9921 • Seventh-Day Adventist Church Corner of Mylark and Larch Streets. Sabbath School 10 a.m. Saturday., Worship Service11 a.m. Phone: 486-5297 • St. James the Fisherman Episcopal Church Located at 421 Thorsheim St. Holy Eucharist Sunday at 7:30 a.m. and 10 a.m. Sunday School and child care at 10:00 a.m. Phone: 486-5276 • St. Mary's Catholic Church2934 Mill Bay Rd. Week day mass: 5:15pm. Saturday mass 5 p.m. Sunday mass 10:30 a.m.,6 p.m. For Spanish mass call 486-5911. Phone: 486-5911 • St. Paul Lutheran Church (ELCA) 3077 E. Rezanof Dr. Worship service @ 8 a.m. and 10:30 a.m. with Sunday School at 9:15 a.m. Nursery Care provided. Pastor Elden Simonson. Youth leader Jeremy Joy. 486-3632 E-mail: stpaulkodiak@gci.net Phone: 486-3632 • The Salvation Army 1855 Mission Rd. Praise & Worship Service, 10:30 a.m., Sunday School 10 a.m., Bible Study, Thursday 7 p.m., Food Bank Ministry, Friday 2 - 4 p.m. Commanding Officers Captain's David and Lola Davis. Phone: 486-8740 • Unitarian Universalist Fellowship Worship services 1st and 3rd Sunday, 10 a.m. at Allegro Arts Center, 1220 E. Rezanof Dr. for meeting. Web site: kodiakuuf.orgE-mail: bodette@ptialaska.net Phone: 486-5171 This "religious sample of the United States" shows how many people have left the Catholic Church. It breaks my heart!
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Post by jimpres on Nov 16, 2008 8:50:15 GMT -7
Nathanael,
Many of the fundamentalists just will do there own interpretation of the Bible and then we have a new church. They do not believe in tradition of the majesterium. So any interpretation by an individual suffices for them. We have the old testament from the Jews, The new from God about 390AD. Then we have the bishops of the church who make up the our tradition as passed down by the apostles. The majesterium made up of the Pope and the bishops then interpret the scripture, and tradition and pass it on as one interpretation. Thus we have one church view not many.
Jim
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Post by pieter on Nov 16, 2008 11:44:50 GMT -7
Peter, millions of pages have been written about Luther, so what I can add here is just a tiny scratch on the surface of the ocean. I think that, in the U.S., the main sources of interest would be John Dillinger's Martin Luther and Roland H. Binton's Here I Stand (Hie Stehe Ich). Long ago, I have studies both books extensively. For the moment I can offer this synthetic comparison of the doctrine of Martin Luther and the doctrine of the Council of Trent, as regards justification (Source: H. Denzinger) JUSTIFICATION TRENT V. LUTHER LUTHER: human nature is completely corrupted; human will is unable to make good works TRENT: human will is weakened; freedom of freedom of making good works is not lost completely [DH 1555, 1557 ff.] LUTHER: concupiscence is sin and the source of all sins TRENT: becomes a sin when man is submitted to it, committing an actual sin [DH 1515] LUTHER: man in front of God, when in process of justification, is completely passive TRENT: man, moved by Grace, cooperates in justification. He accepts justifying action of God [ DH 1554 ] LUTHER: grace of justification is the forgiving love of God (exclusively Divine reality) TRENT: it is the reality which is present in the human soul, which renews interior man [DH 1561] LUTHER: on faith and justification: justification is an effect of entrustment sola fide to the Divine mercy. God does not consider any more sins TRENT: faith and entrustment can justify only when they are conected with hope and charity, moreover with a human active cooperation with Grace [DH 1559; DH 1562] LUTHER: force of faith is that it gives certitude of salvation TRENT: faith alone does not give us certitude of salvation (cf. Didache) [DH 1563 ff.] LUTHER on merit: human works are not worthy of merit TRENT: thanks to Grace, human works are worthy of merit [DH 1581 ff.] CONCLUSION LUTHER: essence of justification consists in simply recognizing that one is justified -“you just are” TRENT: to be justified, you must cooperate with the Grace of the theological virtues NOTE: I am not saying that Luther was wrong on all counts. But if Luther were right that "all concupiscence is sin," how in the world would he have justified extases, where the entire soul participates with concupiscence in a total love of God? Would he say that "we better forget the Commandment "to love with all soul, heart, and strength" (Dt 6:4)? Or would he say that "we forget about loving with the whole soul"? The moral is: Luther's 95 theses were forged in anger (a documented fact), ... and anger distorted his thinking on this issue tragically! Nathanael, According to the CIA factbook about the Netherlands religious map is the following. From the Dutch 30% consider themselves Roman Catholic, 11% Dutch Reformed (Hervormd) (=Calvinist) , Calvinist (gereformeerd) 6%, other Protestant 3%, Muslim 5.8%, other 2.2%, none 42% (2006) Among the 3 % other Protestants you can place the Lutheranians. Lutheranians are more present in Germany, the Scandinavian countries and USA/Canada. In the Netherlands there are 55 lutheranian congregations with only 14.000 members The Lutheranians differ from the majority of Calvinists among the Dutch Protestant Church, because in principle they have bishops (the calvinists do not have bishops), and they have a differant Eucharist (Holy Communion or Lord's Supper) than the Calvinist Dutch Reformed "Hervormde" and "Gereformeerde" (Presbyterian like) churches. The Dutch Lutheranians however had a synodal structure in staid of bishops like in Germany and Scandinavian countries, whom have Lutheranian state churches. In the past centuries when you had the Dutch merchants republic the Seven provinces, there was a sort of Calvinist dominant state religion and state church. Calvinist Protestants and the Dutch Reformed Church were dominant and the silent Catholic majority was sort of opressed, they gather in secred in their Hiding churches: In the Netherlands, a schuilkerk (Dutch - house church; plural - schuilkerken) is a kind of church that is not recognisable as a church from the outside of the building. They were built in large numbers during the time of the Dutch Republic for use by Roman Catholics, Remonstrants, Lutherans and Mennonites. In cities schuilkerken were especially established in houses and warehouses, whereas in the countryside such churches generally had the appearance of a shed and so became known as Schuurkerken (shed churches). In the general regarded tolerant century of the Dutch Golden Age (17th century), there was not so much tolerance towards compatriots who had a differant faith than the Calvinist faith of the Gereformeerde (Dutch Reformed) state church. Dutch citizens were regarded to be a member of that church. Only jews had some religious freedom, because they were considered belonging to an alien religion. They were not considered as compatriots but as foreigners. So like said above here the Roman Catholics, Remonstrants, Lutherans and Mennonites had to go to secret gatherings in houses and warehouses that were their church, but whom where not recognizable from the outside as churches! So for a long time Catholics were discriminated in the Netherlands, and in the culture there stil is a sort of attitude of mocking catholics, some hostility towards the Catholic church which has a foreign central rule (the Vatican). For some time the Catholics were seen as those poor peasents from the South, North-East and the East from the Netherlands. Ofcourse the Netherlands were Catholic before the reformation, like the rest of Europe. So many Calvinist churches have a Catholic past and are recognizable as former Catholic places of worship. To make a long story short, the Netherlands or Holland is not a Lutheranian country, and therefor we have little with Martin Luther. Dutch Protestantism is closer to the Scottish, English and American Presbyterian churches and the French Huguenots. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_Golden_Ageen.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huguenot / pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugenoci
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