Israel Crosses The Nuclear Threshold

[bescheid]

1958, Israels Nuclear Programme began at the Dmona Nuclear research site. It was not until December 1968, that this fact was confirmed to the Nixon administration. The fact alone was although startling, but, also what next to do. The administration suddenly found it's self sailing in uncharted waters, as no regulator marker had every been set for nuclear weapon possession in the middle east.

Resolution was only arrived at with various meetings between Israeli civilian authority and those of the Nixon administration, officiated by Henry Kissinger.


Washington D.C., April 28, 2006 - Today the National Security Archive publishes for the first time 30 recently declassified U.S. government documents disclosing the existence of a highly secret policy debate, during the first year of the Nixon administration, over the Israeli nuclear weapons program. Broadly speaking, the debate was over whether it was feasible--either politically or technically--for the Nixon administration to try to prevent Israel from crossing the nuclear threshold, or whether the U.S. should find some "ground rules" which would allow it to live with a nuclear Israel.

The documents published by the Archive are the primary sources for an article by Avner Cohen and William Burr, "Israel crosses the threshold," that appears in the May-June 2006 issue of the Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists. The article is now available on-line at the Bulletin's Web site. An edited version of the article will also appear in The Washington Post's Sunday "Outlook" section on April 30, 2006.

Among the key findings in the article:

* 1969 was a turning point in the U.S.-Israeli nuclear relationship. Israel already had a nuclear device by 1967, but it was not until 1968-1969 that U.S. officials concluded that an Israeli bomb was about to become a physical and political reality. U.S. government officials believed that Israel was reaching a state "whereby all the components for a weapon are at hand, awaiting only final assembly and testing."

* In the first months of the Nixon administration, senior officials such as Secretary of Defense Melvin Laird believed it was important that Washington try to check Israeli nuclear progress for the sake of stability in the Middle East.

* In April 1969 national security adviser Henry Kissinger issued National Security Study Memorandum (NSSM) 40 requesting the national security bureaucracy to develop options for dealing with the Israeli nuclear problem. A Senior Review Group (SRG), chaired by Henry Kissinger, was formed to deliberate and propose avenues for action to the President.

* The SRG outlined policy objectives to President Nixon and proposed initiating a probe with Israeli Ambassador Rabin designed to achieve those objectives. Nixon approved the SRG's proposal for action but declined to use deliveries of advanced F-4 Phantom jets as leverage for the probe. This decision was fateful for the entire exercise.

* On July 29, 1969 Ambassador Rabin was summoned by Acting Secretary of State Elliott Richardson and Deputy Secretary of Defense David Packard as the first step in the probe. The two officials pressed Rabin on three issues: (1) the meaning of Israel's "non-introduction" pledge; (2) Israel's signature on the NPT; (3) Israel's intentions on the missile issue. Rabin provided no replies and subsequently proposed to leave the whole issue for the meeting between President Nixon and Prime Minister Meir in late September.

* On the eve of Meir's visit the State Department prepared a background paper for the President concluding that "Israel might very well now have a nuclear bomb" and certainly "had the technical ability and material resources to produce weapons grade uranium for a number of weapons."

* No written record of the meeting between President Nixon and Prime Minister Meir on September 26 is available, but it was a key event in the emergence of the 1969 US-Israeli nuclear understanding. Subsequent documents suggest that Meir pledged to maintain nuclear restraint-no test, no declaration, no visibility-and after the meeting the Nixon White House decided to "stand down" on pressure on Israel.

* On October 7, 1969 Ambassador Rabin formally provided his belated answers to the US questions: Israel will not become a nuclear power; Israel will decide on the NPT after its election in November; Israel will not deploy strategic missiles until 1972.

* On February 23, 1970 Ambassador Rabin informed Kissinger that, in light of President Nixon's conversation with Meir in September 1969, Israel "has no intention to sign the NPT."

* Subsequently, the White House decided to end the secret annual U.S. visits to the Israeli nuclear facility at Dimona. Lower-level officials were not told of the decision and as late as May 1970 they were under the impression that the visits could be revived.

* By 1975, in keeping with the understanding with Israel, the State Department refused to tell Congress that it was certain that Israel had the bomb, even though U.S. intelligence was convinced that it did.

The newly declassified documents are from State Department records and Nixon Presidential Materials at the National Archives, College Park. They represent, however, only a small fraction of a large body of documents on NSSM 40 that remain classified. To elucidate the U.S. government debate over the issue of the Israeli bomb the National Security Archive has filed declassification requests for those key documents.

The full article, "Israel crosses the threshold," is now available on the Web site of the Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists:

www.thebulletin.org/article.php?art_ofn=mj06cohen

The following url is document #22

www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB189/IN-22.pdf


Charles

[pieter]

Israel always was an high developped economy with an exellent defense, because of it's elite of highly qualified academical (scientific) specialists and professionals from Western-Europe, Russia, Poland and the United States.
The German Jecke's ( www.frif.com/new98/jeckes.html ), the Russian polytechnical- and Aviation experts,
American capital, Polish Jewish leadership , and the support of British, French, South-African Jews made Israel also
what it is, a hightech economy with a sophisticated Military Industrial complex.

www.monitor.upeace.org/archive.cfm?id_article=252#_edn5

A military industrial complex is born

Israel was born out of war. Its very independence was achieved through the use of force, which endowed Israel with a victory over its surrounding Arab countries. Ben Gurion, in a speech he addressed as the war ended, praised the industrial and technological capability of the fledgling state as a factor that contributed in supplying arms to the state s army and hence had an important part in the victory. We should nurture and enhance this advantage of ours , he stated. And so we did.

The building of a domestic military industry was based, at least in its inception, primarily upon fear. The Jewish state was established in the midst of a hostile environment by a Holocaust-traumatized nation that was determined to never again be led as lambs to the slaughter [ii]. The main preoccupation of the state was to keep the IDF prepared for any attack[iii]. During Israel s first years as a state, France realized Israel s major dependence on arms suppliers. In June 1967, France declared an arms embargo on Israel in response to Israeli actions in the Six Day War. That was a watershed in arms production in Israel. The state decided not to rely any longer on foreign suppliers and started investing capital in establishing a large-scale arms industry. Within a few years, Israel had a highly advanced and technologically sophisticated arms industry, unparalleled amongst developing countries, an industry that could well underpin the self-reliance policy[iv].

What have we got? Inventory:

Ninety-five percent of the arms produced in Israel are manufactured by 6 companies, three of which are state-owned. The state-owned companies include Israel Aircraftt Industries (IAI), Israel Military Industries Ltd (IMI) and the National Armaments Development Authority (Rafael). In the private sector the largest company is Elbit Systems. Tadiran and Elisra make good profits as well.

[sciwriter]

Pieter, thanks for the interesting, in-depth information. USA won't allow Israel to use nuclear weapons. Carl

[kaima]

pieter said:

Israel always was an high developped economy with an exellent defense, because of it's elite of highly qualified academical (scientific) specialists and professionals from Western-Europe, Russia, Poland and the United States.
.

Pieter, is this something you wrote or something that you are quoting? You mention Western Europe first. In America we tend to list the largest number of a group of items first and on down to the smallest number of items last, as in food ingredients or a mixed group of people, or in this case the sources of people.

Our society and history is quite western Europe oriented.
I thought most of teh jews lived in Central and primarly Eastern Europe. Germany was supposed to actually only have about 1% of its population as Jewish. Then again, most all of the famous Jewish scientists I have read about seemed to come from Central and Eastern Europe.

I was just surprised at the order of the listing.

Kai

[bescheid]

sciwriter said:

Pieter, thanks for the interesting, in-depth information. USA won't allow Israel to use nuclear weapons. Carl

Carl

Thank you for your post response on this subject. In as much to the Israelis and use of nuclear weapons. As I am not Jewish, I would rather suggest this though: In light of their (Israelis) record of independent thinking. I would not count on them not to make use of these Nuclear weapons in their currant possession. They knew if shared with the US (conjecture upon my part) in the start of their nuclear research, the US would say no. More or less as exampled by a child reaching in to the cookie jar, then later asking the parent for a cookie.

The other very serious situation that must be seen through the eyes of the Israelis. They have their backs to the sea with no escape from their surrounding enemies. "Arabs", today they are friends, tomorrow vicious enemies. The Israelis intrinsically understand this.

If the situation would arise, and the need for very high explosives are needed, and conventional explosive weapons will not suffice, then they (nuclear weapons) will most likely be depended upon. Survival is not just an accident, it must be defended. Survival can not be measured by world opinion, it must be defended at all cost.

The US is not so different, nor most other nations. If we are to die at the hands of our enemies, then most of us, would rather fight with the best weapons we own. Nuclear weapons are feared because of the power inherent in them. They are what they are, very high explosive heat weapons, and dirty.

Charles

[bescheid]

pieter

I was some what very surprised of the extensive knowledge you have of Israel. But, then I should not be, for your brother in law is Jewish, which is just fine. If we have a sister, then in time, we will have a brother in law.

With no doubt, you will have read my post return to Carl on this subject. I am not Jewish nor sympathetic to them, but, on the other hand, I do admire their ability to over come, adapt, and adjust their environment. Those that I have had the good fortune to have met, I liked them, they were different, but then, are not we all.

It most probably is an unspoken situation of the nuclear capability of Israel as with the possession of these weapons for all these years; would most likely be kept as deterrence against any probability of attack by any of their neighbours. The screw driver effect, the weapons are in storage, but, not exactly immediately available for use until assembled for deployment. An excellent situation describing the reason of US deployment of naval ships with nuclear arms in past years. These would be the back up in case of extreme conflict. In as such, to give the Israelis time for preparation if the situation should ever come to that event. And so, the good reason of Israel to never be the first to deployment of nuclear weapons, they do not have to.

At any rate, it was/is a good move in negotiation diplomacy. But of course, the best diplomacy is: Trust, reliability and history of friendship.

I have no url for the above assertions, please consider as
conjecture.

nuclearweaponarchive.org/Israel/

The above url gives a relative example of the Israeli nuclear weapons programme.


Charles

[pieter]

kaima said:

pieter said:

Israel always was an high developped economy with an exellent defense, because of it's elite of highly qualified academical (scientific) specialists and professionals from Western-Europe, Russia, Poland and the United States.
.

Pieter, is this something you wrote or something that you are quoting? You mention Western Europe first. In America we tend to list the largest number of a group of items first and on down to the smallest number of items last, as in food ingredients or a mixed group of people, or in this case the sources of people.

Our society and history is quite western Europe oriented.
I thought most of teh jews lived in Central and primarly Eastern Europe. Germany was supposed to actually only have about 1% of its population as Jewish. Then again, most all of the famous Jewish scientists I have read about seemed to come from Central and Eastern Europe.

I was just surprised at the order of the listing.

Kai

Kai,

You are right ofcourse, and we Western-Europeans usaly have the same way of listing
as you Americans do, since we share language, knowledge and science.
In a way it was arrogant of me as Western-European. Everybody who knows the history
of the Yishuv (jewish community in Palestine in the 19th and 20th century), and the
beginning of the state of Israel, knows that the majority of the first waves of Zionist pioneers, were Russian and Polish jews.
The fact that the majority of the Eastern-European jewry did not become Zionist, is because of the force of the competitive Orthodox (Chassidim and traditional orthodox)
who had the influential religious partu Agudath Yisrael (who cooperated with the
Polish government), and the competitive Jewish Socialist, secular nationalist, Yiddish
culture promoting BUND, a mass organisation of the jewish working class and middle class. Ofcourse many Polish and Russian jews were also member of the Polish Communist and Socialist parties. The Core of the Yishuv and early Israel was made of Eastern-European Ashkenazi jews. In the fiftees the influx of Sefardi and Mizrahi (Arab jews)
from the Arab and Muslim world took place, bringing to Israel 800.000 jews from the Middle east, namely Marocco, Algeria, Egypt, Syria, Iraq, Iran and Yemen.
Only after the Likud victory in 1977 of the Polish jew Begin, the Middle eastern, Oriental jews broke the (Nietschian; New jew, Israeli Ashkenazi ideology) power of the Ashkenazi
(Eastern European) labour elite which controled politics, economy, the Tshal (Israeli Defense forces) and the Histadruth (The large Israeli Union and big employer).
In my view the other Western Ashkenazi migrants like the German, Dutch, Belgian,
British, French, Scandinavian, South-African and American jews merged/mixed well with the Eastern-Europeans, because they share the same culture and background. Why?
A lot of the Western-European and American jews ancesters simply came from Eastern Europe, carry the same names, have the same religious and cultural traditions and customs, and often had or have family in Central- and Eastern Europe.
Don't forget that the jewish communities before the second world war were very dynamic, and that there were much crossing border social-cultural, religious and even political contacts. But as I write this story this is just my view based on what I read and
heard. The German Jecke's were an influential intellectual, scientific and cultural force
in Europe and America, their influence was larger than Germany, because many jews in other countries spoke German and loved German literature, music and culture, also because their Jiddish was a German dialect. The Czech Franz Kafka, belonged to the
German speaking jewish minority of Prague.
The New York of the 18th and 19th century was dominated by German jews, these jews later mixed with the Eastern-European newcommers, but they stayed part of the Ashkenazi elite of American judaism (listen to names as Sachs, Spielberg, Weinberger, Kissinger, Greenberg, Kaufmann, Zimmermann -Bob Dylan- all German names).
So in my view the influence of German jewish immigrants is bigger than the small amount of actual German immigration to Israel, because of their link with their American and Central and Eastern European brethern. That they were mistrusted in the beginning, was understandable, because German jews were know as people who were more German than German (very assimilated people, the core of German intelligentsia and science int the Weimar republic and before that).
An historical fact is that the Polish Sanacia regime supported the Revisionist Zionists from the rightwing Irgun in the late thirtees with armed training in the woods of the Karpat mountains, and arms supplies, because the Polish government hoped that Zionism would
help the immigration from the Polish-jewish masses to Palestine.
So in fact the Polish army partly lay the foundations from the Israeli army, because later
in the fourtees the rival Haganah (and it's elite Palmach -where Rabin came from-) merged with the Irgun from Begin and former elements of the Jewish Brigade that fought under the British flag during World War II in the newly established Tshal/IDF.
After the first Israeli-Arab war of 1948 the former enemies Israeli's and Brits became allies in the Suez crisis ( en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suez_Crisis ) when the Israeli's
secretly cooperated with the French and Brits against the Egyptians.

French-Israeli military alliance in the fiftees and sixtees:

In the post-WWII era French relations with the Arab Middle East reached a very low point. The war in Algeria between Muslim fighters and French colonists deeply concerned the rest of the Muslim world. The independence fighters received much of their supplies and funding from Egypt and other Arab powers, much to France's displeasure. Most damaging to Franco-Arab relations, however, was the Suez Crisis. It greatly diminished France's reputation in the region. France openly supported the Israeli attack on the Sinai peninsula, and was working against Nasser, then a popular figure in the Middle East. The Suez Crisis also made France and the United Kingdom look again like imperialist powers attempting to impose their will upon weaker nations.
Another hindrance to France's relations with the Arab Middle East was its close alliance with Israel. In the 1950s France was, perhaps, Israel's closest ally in the world. France had quickly recognized the state of Israel and for many years backed Israel at the United Nations. French arm shipments, including fighter jets, missiles, and helicopters had formed the backbone of Israel's army in the nineteen-fifties and early sixties. In the 1967 war it was French Mirage fighters that had guaranteed Israeli air superiority, while on the ground French small arms equipped the IDF soldiers. This support was consistent, and also deeply ingrained in the population. The support for Israel has been attributed to a number of causes, including guilt felt over the Vichy regime's treatment of Jews, and a similar desire to reject any viewpoints that could have Nazi overtones. The right also had strong sympathies towards Israel as they saw the Israeli-Palestinian conflict to be in many ways similar to France's war with Algerian separatists.

In 1967 de Gaulle completely overturned France's Israel policy. De Gaulle and his ministers reacted very harshly to Israel's actions in the Six Day War. The French government and de Gaulle condemned Israel's treatment of refugees, warned that it was a mistake to occupy the Palestinian areas, and also refused to recognize the Israeli control of Jerusalem. The French government continued to criticize Israel after the war and de Gaulle spoke out against other Israeli actions, such as the operations against the PLO in Lebanon. France began to use its veto power to oppose Israel in the UN, and France sided with the Arab states on almost all issues brought to the international body. Most importantly of all, however, de Gaulle's government imposed an arms embargo on the Israeli state. The embargo was in fact applied to all the combatants, but very soon France began selling weaponry to the Arab states again. As early as 1970 France sold Libya a hundred Dassault Mirage fighter jets. However, after 1967 France continued to support Israel's right to exist, as well as Israel's many preferential agreements with France and the European Economic Community.
De Gaulle launched the immense shift in policy from one favouring Israel to one favouring the Arab states for a combination of reasons. It was becoming obvious that the strengthening alliance between the United States and Israel would soon make France's role as an ally mostly irrelevant. The US could always provide Israel with more money and with higher levels of military technology. For France to play an important role in the region it seemed supporting the Arab side would give it more leverage in the future. Trade considerations also came into play. The Arab states at the time had a combined population of over a hundred million, compared to only three million in Israel. As de Gaulle memoirs show he was personally quite sympathetic to Israel, but he saw it in the interest of France to distance the two nations. For the pursuit of political and economic ends de Gaulle crafted a new Middle Eastern policy that discontinued support for Israel and instead pursued close relations with the Arab states.

After the French retreated the Americans became Israels main arms suppliers out of
opportunistic, Geopolitical and pragmatic reasons, because they wanted a ballance
of power in the region. So America left it's path of neutrality it had maintained in
the fourtees, fiftees and sixtees.
Read: www.country-data.com/cgi-bin/query/r-6860.html

Last but not least some information about Israels conventional and nuclear
abilities and capacities: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_Defense_Forces

Israeli military technology

Israeli modified F-16 flying over Masada.
The IDF is considered to be one of the most high-tech armies in the world, possessing top-of-the-line weapons and computer systems. Besides purchasing American-made weapon systems (such as the M4A1 assault rifle, F-15 Eagle and F-16 Fighting Falcon jets and Apache helicopter), the IDF has several large internal R&D departments.
IDF also purchases many technologies produced by the Israeli security industries including IAI, IMI, Elbit, El-Op, Rafael, Soltam and dozens of smaller firms. Many of these developments have been battle-tested in Israel's numerous military engagements, making the relationship mutually beneficial, the IDF getting tailor-made solutions and the industries a very high repute.
[edit]
Main Israeli developments


An Israeli Merkava main battle tank.
Israel's military technology is most famous for its guns, armored fighting vehicles (tanks, tank-converted APCs, armoured bulldozers etc) and rocketry (missiles and rockets). Israel also designs and in some cases manufactures aircraft (Kfir, Lavi) and naval systems (patrol and missile ships, Dolphin class submarine). Much of the IDF's electronic systems (intelligence, communication, command and control, navigation etc.) are Israeli-developed, including many systems installed on foreign platforms (esp. aircraft, tanks and submarines). So are many of its precision-guided munitions.
Currently Israel is the only country in the world with an anti-ballistic missile defense system ("Hetz", or Arrow) and working with the USA on development of a tactical high energy laser system against medium range rockets (called Nautilus THEL).
Israel has the independent capability of launching reconnaissance satellites into orbit (a capability which only Russia, the United States, the United Kingdom, France, the People's Republic of China, Japan, and India hold). Both the satellites (Ofeq) and the launchers (Shavit) were developed by the Israeli security industries.
Israel is also said to have developed an indigenous nuclear capability, although no official details or acknowledgements have ever been publicized.


Nuclear capability

It is generally believed that Israel has nuclear weapons. The weapons were thought to have been developed at the Dimona nuclear reactor since the 1960s. The first two nuclear bombs were probably operational before the Six-Day War and Prime Minister Levi Eshkol ordered them armed in Israel's first nuclear alert during that war. It is also believed that, fearing defeat in the October 1973 Yom Kippur War, the Israelis assembled thirteen twenty-kiloton nuclear bombs.
The current size and composition of Israel's nuclear stockpile is uncertain, and is the subject of various estimates and reports. FAS estimates that Israel probably has 100-200 nuclear warheads, which can be delivered by airplanes (A4 Skyhawk or converted F-4 Phantom II), or ballistic missiles (Lance, Jericho, or Jericho II missiles). The Jericho II is reported to have a range between 1,500 and 4,000 km, meaning that it can target sites as far away as central Russia, Iran and Libya.
It has also been speculated that the Israeli Navy's three Dolphin class submarines may be capable of carrying nuclear-armed specially-modified Popeye Turbo cruise missiles. These missiles are purported to have a 1,500 km range and are supposedly fired out of what are suspected to be unusually-sized additional torpedo tubes that were allegedly installed on the Dolphin submarine and are otherwise larger than what is required to accommodate any currently known western torpedo design in existence. A test of such a missile is alleged to have taken place off the coast of Sri Lanka in May 2000. Nevertheless, some military analysts have labeled such rumors to be highly unlikely and impossible given the logistics of the submarines. Furthermore, there is no factual basis for the origins of the alleged test firing.
The Israeli government has neither acknowledged nor denied that it possesses nuclear weapons, an official policy referred to as "ambiguity". However, details of Israel's nuclear program were revealed in 1986 to the British press by Mordechai Vanunu, a former nuclear technician. Following these revelations, Mordechai Vanunu was abducted by the Mossad and convicted of treason in his country. Released in 2004 under specific conditions, he lives today under surveillance in Israel.

Read also: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_and_weapons_of_mass_destruction
You see that France has an important role in both the materialistic, logistic,
tactical and strategic built up of the Israeli army and it's Arab enemies (the Iraqi
and Syrian Mirages).

[pieter]

bescheid said:

pieter

I was some what very surprised of the extensive knowledge you have of Israel. But, then I should not be, for your brother in law is Jewish, which is just fine. If we have a sister, then in time, we will have a brother in law.

With no doubt, you will have read my post return to Carl on this subject. I am not Jewish nor sympathetic to them, but, on the other hand, I do admire their ability to over come, adapt, and adjust their environment. Those that I have had the good fortune to have met, I liked them, they were different, but then, are not we all.

It most probably is an unspoken situation of the nuclear capability of Israel as with the possession of these weapons for all these years; would most likely be kept as deterrence against any probability of attack by any of their neighbours. The screw driver effect, the weapons are in storage, but, not exactly immediately available for use until assembled for deployment. An excellent situation describing the reason of US deployment of naval ships with nuclear arms in past years. These would be the back up in case of extreme conflict. In as such, to give the Israelis time for preparation if the situation should ever come to that event. And so, the good reason of Israel to never be the first to deployment of nuclear weapons, they do not have to.

At any rate, it was/is a good move in negotiation diplomacy. But of course, the best diplomacy is: Trust, reliability and history of friendship.

I have no url for the above assertions, please consider as
conjecture.

nuclearweaponarchive.org/Israel/

The above url gives a relative example of the Israeli nuclear weapons programme.


Charles

Charles,

Thanks for your reply but I have to correct you, since my brother in law is no jew,
but a South-African of Christian (Methodist descent), with English, Afrikaander
(Boer), and other European blood (but not jewish).
My jewish family comes from a Polish grandmother of my niece, and so she
happend to be jewish via her mother.
But she leeds a Polish life in Poznan, and since her grandmother lived a Catholic
life with her husbant, a Catholic Pole who was the brother of my grandmother.
My practical connection to judaism is via a Dutch jewish girlfriend of mine,
which father is Dutch reformed (protestant) and mother is jewish (but does not
want to have anuthing to do with the Jewish faith).
She herself find out her jewish past, got interested in it and affinitive with it.
My interest in judaism comes from my interest in the past, culture, literature
and especially the history of my country and that of Poland.
Both in the Netherlands and Poland, Jews played an important role in the
economies, scientific developments and culture and arts.
Like you I am nor Philosemite (Pro-jewish) nor anti-semite, I am just interested
in Judaism as the origin of my own Christian and humanist European background.
Reading my new Dutch bible translation, both the stories of the old and new testamony are taking place in a Jewish background, since Jesus was one of the many leaders
of a Messianic jewish sect. Which later happened to be the largest monotheist
religion in the world. So I can say my European roots lay in the Dutch Calvinist
tradition (a liberal branch of Dutch reformed faith, my ancesters practised),
Catholicism (the faith I was raised in and to which I feel connectec stil, with
the element of Protestant Bible orientation), the French enlightenment,
German rationalism (kant/A rational weltanschauung), English Analytic philosophy
(the anglo-saxon language-and-logic positivist philosophy), American pragmatism
and the jewish ethical philosophy of Levinas and Spinoza.
Protestantism, Catholicism and judaism in me are three branches of the same tree
of Western Monotheism, democracy, justice (jurisdiction), law, freedom of speech,
human dignity, a shared set of values and an ongoing line from the past, to the
present and the future. Most important for me is to live into the NOW, the present
situation, the be constantly aware of the situation you are in right at the moment,
not being distracted by being stuck in the past or dreaming of the future.
And I have had both, being to much in the past, and being to much with my thaughts
in the Future, sometimes with a direct (more or less Utopic vision of a connectio between the past and the future, from an cultural art theory, which was colored by historical
and political theory and idealism, but totally unpractical in the present) link to study
and social activity (being part of a network or movement).
Now I know that for me the best philosophy that works is American pragmatism,
with a little bit of German rational weltanschauung, English analythic approach,
French extentialism/postmodernism (Derrida), Polish naturalism and jewish ethics.
In this personal mix, which is ofcourse infleunced by my life personal empirical experiance
I am sceptical towards the French existentialism of Sartre, the Post modernist far going
putting everything into perspective.
With an art background (art academy) I have an urge for radical freedom and am sceptical for both to much power for the state, as the dominant power of Capitalism
or religions. In that way I am nearly libertarian, but my critisizm towards Libertarians
is that they have a lack of limitations in their ideology and speak to highly of human
capabilities, I have a more conservative negative view of freedom.
I am not very optimistic about human beings, because behind the 10% of civilisation
and education lies 90% of barbarism (the animal in the human being), capable
of vicious brutality, sadism, cruelty, extermination of it's own kind and etc.
Unfortunately I have a deep mistrust of fellow human beings, due to my European
past, and lack the typical American optimism, which gives you such a productive
and bright cheerful mentality. Now I am watching an exellent Dutch art program
about the wonderful Austrian painter Gustav Klimt, who made very refined and
sensual paintings of Viennese women and girls (in a mix of erotic tension with
the odeur oif death), one of the greatest painters of the Wiener Session, of the
Vienna Jugenstil movement.

[bescheid]

pieter

Thank you for correcting me on my mistaken assumptions of a Jewish brother in law in South Africa. Your description of your self is both admirable and explanatory. This would be your fine eye for detail, form and function. All an excellent trait, and that of an artist. Artist are usually always good people to source from on analysis of situations such as photographs of poor quality, but containing important information and as with other situation analysis.

We are both very different people with our separate and diverse attributes. I like yours the best, but, we each must live with what we have.

Even from my youth, I lived in a protected environment, just by circumstances of chance. But, have always contained the ultimate trust in people. I like people and that, with the natural curiosity of investigation and description analysis trait, set me up ultimately with my working live occupation.

On the one side, my work personality is very serious and exacting. No loss threads, but, exact information,proofed and documented. I am afraid of responsibility for others, but, seemed to be stuck with that. I am afraid of public speaking, but, was stuck with that. I hated to study but, was stuck with that.

All the things I was afraid of and hated, I still had to do it. But, the old saying:

{if you hate some thing long enough, you will learn to love it.}

Charles

[pieter]

bescheid said:

pieter

Thank you for correcting me on my mistaken assumptions of a Jewish brother in law in South Africa. Your description of your self is both admirable and explanatory. This would be your fine eye for detail, form and function. All an excellent trait, and that of an artist. Artist are usually always good people to source from on analysis of situations such as photographs of poor quality, but containing important information and as with other situation analysis.

We are both very different people with our separate and diverse attributes. I like yours the best, but, we each must live with what we have.

Even from my youth, I lived in a protected environment, just by circumstances of chance. But, have always contained the ultimate trust in people. I like people and that, with the natural curiosity of investigation and description analysis trait, set me up ultimately with my working live occupation.

On the one side, my work personality is very serious and exacting. No loss threads, but, exact information,proofed and documented. I am afraid of responsibility for others, but, seemed to be stuck with that. I am afraid of public speaking, but, was stuck with that. I hated to study but, was stuck with that.

All the things I was afraid of and hated, I still had to do it. But, the old saying:

{if you hate some thing long enough, you will learn to love it.}

Charles

Charles,

We have more in common than you might think, I hated school as a child (5-12),
high school and even the higher education, because of the ineffectifness and
the collectivism of the education sistem, which does not served my individualist
goal, following, researching and finding my own way.
I only liked studying in my own time (later as an adult), when I went voluntary
to a library, bookstore or museum to find something I wanted to find out.
I detested fellow pupils at school, kids I did not choose for and were totally differant
from me. Had nothing in common with them and with the boring teachers.
Later I have to admit to say I am greatful for their patience for me, the kid with
learning problems who lived in his own world.
I had difficulties with learning the Dutch language and other subjects and liked
playing outside more than sitting in the classroom.
Later like you say I hated learning subjects long enough, to have learned to love it
at my present age. In high school education became more barable, because of
pretty girls, theatrical plays, the fact of the beach (coast) always nearby,
and because I became interested in some subjects such as history, the foreign languages
English, German and French (a difficult one), and the subject "trade sciences",
chemistry, biology and art class (in which I could draw and water color paint).
I loved walking, jogging, cycling, swimming, rowing and tennis a lot so I was fortunate
to manage to get a good health, while psychologically I was a sombre, fatalistic person.
Black clothes, dark music, heavy literature, carrying the burden of the heavy European
past, drinking and smoking to much at the age of 17/18, because the Dutch youth culture is very alcoholic. School, working in a Hotel-restaurant and spending my money on going out and drinking. Mu parents were worried, because I often came home 7 'o
clock in the morning. I had lived 20 years to long in a region I was not at my place, because I had nothing in common with the people in the Sout-Western Islands of
the Netherlands, the farmers, fishermen, Middle class and harbourworkers of the town
and surrounding villages and neighbour towns.
Leaving Vlissingen, the South-eastern town of my youth, for Amsterdam, was a great
liberation for me. Amsterdam was my enlightenment, "intellectual" birth, social revolution and city of affection, development, eye opening, consiousness, sense of direction and purpose in life. The period of august 1990 til august 1992 when I lived in Amsterdam was extremely important for my selfawareness and selfasteem, there I learned important human values, found real friendship and love (my first real girlfriend
and friends -comrades- for life), and found the exiting mix of universaty students, students of colleges of higher education (I was such a student), working youth and
free city Nomads (squaters, hippy communes in the green peryperhy of the city)
and the cultural people, painters, musicians, writers, poets and the organisers
of exhibitions, galeries and museums. Finally people I felt connected to!
A big city that was my place to be, because there you have a bigger variety of people
who think, more quality on more subjects of life than in the provincial town I came from.
Even until today the core of my friends stil are based on my Amsterdam years.
Amsterdam was international, Cosmopolitan, ecclectic, crossover, Multi-ethnic,
liberal, exiting, sometimes dark too (you can be depressive everywhere), a phantastic
combination of a beautiful past (the Canals, atmosphere of the 17 th century Golden
age of the Netherlands), and Modern new content, having an international airport
nearby, a bussy central station full of visitors of other European countries and the world,
and a Russian and Southern-American community.
The exiting thing of the town was also the visible presence of large foreign immigrant
communities such as Maroccans, Turks, the black people from our Southern American colonies and Dutch colonies and Africans from Ghana, Nigeria and Senegal.
Besides that there were people from 160 nationalities living in lively multi-culturel neighbourhoods. Also American, English, Irish, German, Israeli, Polish, Czech,
Spanish, Italian, Portuges and Greek people who has their restaurants there, or
are guest teachers at one of the universaties, or an art program of an exchange between
countries, writers, dancers, producers, directors of art institutions, or people with a
job in the financial district of Amsterdam, or married with a Dutch partner.
Chet Baker fell out of an Amsterdam hotel and died, there were American guys who lived for years in Amsterdam youth hotels or cheap hotels. A lot of Jack Kerouac or Charles Bukowski kind of people. Amsterdam lies close to Paris (5 hours by train), Berlin (idem dito), London (1 hour by plane), so there is a constant stream of people travelling between the countries and capitals by car, bus, train and plane.
Going out changed, because you get easier lost in a bigger city than a provincial town,
so I learned to be selective and know how to dose, and keeping away of the drugs that were present (like in every capital in the world). Liked to stay at my girlfriends study house and to bring her to my student room to. Living apart together was great then.
I shared a kitchen and bathroom with my sister in a basement home.
I must have walked and cycled (which is racing) in Amsterdam many hundreds of miles in that city in those two years. Studyed for history teacher, art teacher and finally one year at the Roycal shool of fine art in the Hague (travelling to Amsterdam to The Hague and back every day. I did not like The Hague, and so did not want to move there).
After that year I went to Arnhem, because I wanted to leave the the Hague academy.
I continued my study in Arnhem, which was not easy, higher art education is very strict
and demands very much from your intellectually and professionally.
My difficulty with institutions became obvious again in the Arnhen art academy,
because of the power game of students and teachers in group sessions in which
the art of the students was debated and judged.
The climate was tough, every year students were kicked out of the group,
in the second year, third year and fourth year.
I managed to stay until the end and got my paper, although already in the second
year, in the second half my painting teacher said he could not learn me anything.
You are a kind of your own, a total autodidact, the didactical method of this academy
does not learn you anything he said. I disaggreed and stayed.
I learned from the art historucal lectures, from the guest artists who gave workshops
in the later years, and especially learned from the skilled craftsmen who run
the differant workstores, the Wood and Metal department ( I had a weld course and
learned to work with woodconstruction and various woodmachines), and the
Audio-visual editing studio with Hi-8, VHS-c offline and Betacam online studio's.
And had great art travel weeks with a touringcar in 1994 (Prague) and Budapest
(1995), visiting the Czech and Hungarian art academies.
My last travel to Poland in 2004 to Krakow was with the same organisation of my
former Art academy. I travelled to Poland with a group of Arnhem art students
and teachers. I was nice to see the new generation and an old (German) teacher
of mine. Today I work during the week in a commercial printer for my money
and for my spare time I have my studio where my paintings and paint are.

Pieter

[pieter]

Israel is more and more becomming a par tof the West, with it's cultural roots in Europe.
Macabai Tel Aviv nearly one for the third time in the baskeball finale in Prague, but lost
from the Czechs overthere. They participate succesfully in the European song contest,
and the former Prime minster of Spain Aznar called for the membership of Israel in the
NATO. Olmert the Israeli prime-minister is tactically moving towards Europe, he is differant
than his predecessor Sharon, who was only interested in strong ties with the USA.

[bescheid]

pieter

The prospects of Israel entering into NATO, is not that out landish. For after all, Israel is an established Western Democracy.

www.theglobalist.com/DBWeb/printStoryId.aspx?StoryId=4451

The above url is rather dated, but, gives a good prospective on this idea.

Charles

[pieter]

bescheid said:

pieter

The prospects of Israel entering into NATO, is not that out landish. For after all, Israel is an established Western Democracy.

www.theglobalist.com/DBWeb/printStoryId.aspx?StoryId=4451

The above url is rather dated, but, gives a good prospective on this idea.

Charles

I aggree with the content of the article Charles.
Israel is totally connected to the West, because it's part of the West!

Pieter