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Post by tuftabis on Nov 17, 2009 7:24:07 GMT -7
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Post by Jaga on Nov 17, 2009 9:56:18 GMT -7
Tufta,
yes, lets wait until Israel would get rid of all the Palestinians, either by killing them, damaging their houses or just simply throwing them away from their land.
We cannot do anything because any critique of Israel is considered anti-semitism.
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Post by tuftabis on Nov 17, 2009 14:23:57 GMT -7
Tufta, yes, lets wait until Israel would get rid of all the Palestinians, either by killing them, damaging their houses or just simply throwing them away from their land. We cannot do anything because any critique of Israel is considered anti-semitism. Jaga, be fair ;D No 'antisemitsm' argument was ever used here (and you, the fierce critic of Israel, have never demonstrated any sign of antisemitism). Back to topic - to have the state regarded 'independent' by the international community one needs to habe a state capable to be independent not just a wish to have one. That was the essence of Carl Bildt's (and Europe's) message. Read more here in Jerusalem Post www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1258027310565&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull |
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Post by pieter on Nov 18, 2009 13:48:27 GMT -7
In fact you are right Tufta, because in my country with the Pro-Israel Freedom Party, PVV, of Wilders, and the traditional Pro-Israeli Christian democratic and christian parties, CDA and CU (both in government), and the rightwing of the secular centre-right Party of Freedom and Democracy, VVD, a majority of the Dutch electorate is in fact Pro-Israel, whether active or passive. Some or many people who are not interested or indifferant towards the Middle east (Israel and the Palestinians) in fact vote Pro-Israeli parties for internal (Dutch topics) reasons, not for foreign affairs (in which a lot of people are not interested). Links: Pro-Israel PartiesCDA: www.cda.nl/ministers.aspx?desc=162ChristianUnity www.christenunie.nl/en/bewindspersonenVVD: www.vvd.nl/actueel/529/vvd-nederland-wil-neeliePVV: (Geert Wilders): www.pvv.nl/SGP: www.sgp.nl/ (fundementalist Orthodox-Protestant, biblical Pro-Israel, Old testament, " chosen people and
firm belief in the Holy Land ideology and theology") Links: Pro-Palestinian Centre-left and leftPvdA (Labour): www.pvda.nl/engelsD66 (social liberal): www.d66.nl/SP (Socialist): www.sp.nl/Groenlinks (GreenLeft): groenlinks.nl/ |
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Post by pieter on Nov 18, 2009 14:55:22 GMT -7
Jaga,
The underlying truth is that a lot of European politicians and ideologues have
the opinion that Europe has a Judeo-Christian and Greek-Roman fundament
or basis, and that Islam does not belongs to that.
They actually want to exclude Islam and many of them would be glad to
get rid of Muslims, because Europe in their eyes is christian or secular
humanist. In my country things that were considered far right a decade
ago are now mainstream ideas. Open xenophobia, aversion against immigrants,
irritation about people who speak with an accent, saying that non Western
(= Non white European) people should leave is normal.
Ethnocentrism is normal. Aversion to what is strange and not domestic is
normal, and fondness of the local, regional and national culture is the logical
result of that.
In the same time many of the same people feel connected to Israel, because
in that country they see an ally against Islam or the Arab and Persian world (and even Turkey), they see a country with an European culture, with people who have European roots, speak English propperly and aren't hostile towards the Dutch culture like the immigrants of Muslim countries like Marocco, Turkey, Indonesia and the Arab countries.
So you could speak in the Netherlands and other European countries of
a wave of Rightwing Populism and mainstream parties from centre-left
and centre-right who are more turning towards isolationalism, the own
culture (the national culture, concentrated around the national language
and the traditions, customs and ethnic history of the native people
of that European countries).
Some none white, non christian immigrants feel excluded or alienated
from that societies. Some of them can blame themselves because they
never learned the language, the custems of the country they choose
to move too and work. Others tried to integrate or assimilate and were
succesful in that and became accepted. And again others who integrated
yet feel rejected, because due to their foreign (racial and ethnic) looks
stil were rejected or treated with suspicion.
Palestinians first of all by many of the xenophobes, islamophobes, racists,
Nationalists, Patriots and even moderate democrats are first of all
seen as (Sunni) Muslims, secondly (ethnic) as arabs and third as
terrorists (linked to Hamas, Islamic Jihad and the Al Aqsa Martyr
Brigades). What does not serve the Palestinian cause is the fact that
often radicals and extremists (some of them the lunatic fringe of the
activist demonstration folks) are associated with their cause.
Dissident old politicians, well known persons, radical left and far right
Neo-Nazi's stand behind the Palestinians.
The schizofrenic thing about this is that on the one hand these neo-Nazi's
and far left radicals oppose eachother, dislike religious ethical politics of the
ruling Christian-democrats (which are often endorsed and supported by the
conservative - moderate - Muslim migrants, who are Pro-Palestinian too).
These far right extremists attack and direct their vermon on (Muslim)
migrants, but on the other side walk with Palestinian shawls, flags,
T-shirts of Bin Laden and the Taliban.
The far left anarchists, Communists and socialists who support the Palestinian
and Arab cause often forget that the Islamists are fiercly opposed to communism,
the secular leftwing nationalism of Fatah and the PLO, and see the leftwing
and rightwing ahtheists as non-believers, lower in standard than the christian
and jewish believers who were and are accepted in Islam.
I live in a country in which one of the main politicians, Geert Wilders wants to
prohibit the Koran, the enter of Muslim immigrants and to tax the Veil of
Muslim women. One third of the Dutch voters support him in the polls.
And he is extremely well protected by police, body guards and the ministry
of internal affairs (who want to avoid a second Pim Fortuyn or Theo van Gogh).
Many people are irritated that most comedians, critics, journalists, and
politicans don't dare to criticize Islam openly. I don't know about that,
but what I know that there is a sort of paranoia and hysteria around
the subject "Islam" today. Segregation, a pillarised society and a
multi-cultural society exists next to eachother in one country and
the regions, towns and cities of that country.
I think I live in the latter one, because I live and work in a multi-
ethnic neighbourhood, radio station and town.
The rural area's of my country are a differant case, because there
the old "Dutch native" culture stil exists.
Pieter
P.S.- I wonder how reality (daily life) in Israel, Palestine (the West-bank
and Gaza) really is whithout the distortion of the media coverage of the
Western Media and the colored Israeli and Palestinian media (which
are or Jewish Nationalist or Arab Nationalist or religious motivated).
The only way to find out would be to visit Israel, the Westbank and
Gaza one day. I hope to do so in the near future!
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