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Post by leslie on Jul 30, 2006 4:58:38 GMT -7
I was a schoolboy during the earlier part of WWII and each year in summer and autumn a lot of us went to help (paid) on local farms. On one of the farms I helped at regularly there was always a contingent of Italian POWs working on the farm. They came from a POW camp at Moota, near Cockermouth, Cumbria and as stated in one of the links supplied by Pieter, they only came out to work if they volunteered - no one was forced to work. Working on the farm they were well looked after and we schoolboys became friends with them - one of them in fact taught me quite a bit of Italian. In my naive schoolboy way I was very sorry that they had to keep returning to be locked in the camp, particularly as I wanted to invite the one who was teaching me Italian to visit my home. But of course that was not allowed. I am sure that in some camps all was not 'moonlight and roses' for the prisoners and am also sure that there would be some cases of harsh treatment (probably meted to the Nazi prisoners who set out to cause trouble), but as been quoted in other postings, in general the POWs of whatever nationality, and the aliens sent to a concentration camp on the Isle of Man at the start of the war, were treated very well. It is a pity that the same cannot be said of the German servicemen who were captured by the Russians. British and American prisoners in German camps had a very variable treatment and in particular regarding the provision of food and the treatment when they were put on forced marches across Germany to avoid being taken over by the advancing Russians - this is probably where a large proportion of the bad treatment (including summary death) occurred. But this could have been because of a fear induced in the Germans (usually SS) that the Russians would catch up with them - and they knew their fate. Perhaps a lot of punishments imposed on the British and American prisoners was self-induced by their baiting of the guards and also because it was their duty to try to escape! Let us hope that these events - good or bad - never recur on the WWII scale, but unfortunately within men there still remains a basic feeling going back to when they were the hunter, gatherers and defenders of their family. That was not a bad attitude but it is open to a reversion but with its modern equivalent. Leslie
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Post by bescheid on Jul 30, 2006 5:48:43 GMT -7
J.J. Thank you for the information I knew that their were some camps in the US, but just was not sure where. Also, a quick check was very surprizing of the actuall number. uboat.net/men/pow/pow_in_america.htmThe above url is primarly that of the U-boot contingent, but includes some numbers and locations. Charles
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Post by bescheid on Jul 30, 2006 6:09:12 GMT -7
One thing I had learned from a news article in the paper was the chilling fact that there was a DP camp right here in the USA and only about an hours drive from my backyard. The people were not allowed out of the area to go into town and not always treated the best. www.oswegohaven.org/RDY That was a wonderfull story Thank you for sharing the url. Untill this present, I had no idea of any DP camps in the US. Charles
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Post by bescheid on Jul 30, 2006 6:18:31 GMT -7
RDY I forgot to include this url you may have an interest in. Perhaps some may suspect I am full of it {hot air} with the Canadian links, but, so what...... please scroll down to entry of: Displaced Persons Act# PC3112 of 23 July 1946. This may be a surprise, but, this act included 4000 former Polish members of the Polish Armed Forces. Also the special preferance section. The act {PC3112} was not an all encompassing programme, for there were many provisions affecting those not welcomed into the Canadian system. Also as a side note difference: the general population of Canada was sparse in comparison to the USA. www.ucalgary.ca/applied_history/tutor/canada1946/1frame.htmlCharles
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Post by bescheid on Jul 30, 2006 6:31:53 GMT -7
Pieter
Thank you for sharing these various url. This has been an eye opener as to the very number of camp locations in the US and Britain.
May I add also, please check the url given to RDY on Canadian immigration policy #PC3112. It may be a pleasant suprise for you in preferance given to Dutch immigrant request.
Charles
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Post by pieter on Jul 30, 2006 6:32:31 GMT -7
Pieter You have made mention of the Neo-Nazi people. Yes, they are here also. Two weeks past, they held a ralley in a neighouring city of Olympia {capital of Washington State}. They are well watched and knowledgable of that. These people are not the thugs now. They are adapting and becoming sophisticated in their approache and manner. But, they ares still Neo-Nazis. Bescheid, I have to say to you that I personally am not worried about the Neo-nazi's in this time, because here in Western Europe there is a very strong (Left wing) inspired counter Movement of Anti-fascists. Often when you have Neo-nazi gatherings or demonstations in Germany or elsewhere in Europe, the Counter demonstration of Anti-fascists is larger. Sometimes I found the attention for very small Neo-Nazi groups disproportionate, because people were blind for other threats. In some cases these Anti-fascists were so focussed on thier enemy that in my opinion they got elements of that enemy themselves. The violent squaters in Germany and the Netherlands could be as intolerant and agressive as the Neo-Nazi's they oppose, so they became a sort of left fascists who put their rule or (Anarchist) ideology in their territory. I know this as an artist, while many artists, were the cultural branch of the Squater movement. Squating was a cheap way of finding a studio and home to stay. The artists however were not always interested in the ideological aspect of Squating, and together with Moderate other Squaters often came into problems with the radical squaters, who often were linked with the extreme-left. To give a picture of how extreme these Radical anarchist Anti-fascist squaters could be, in the eightees and even ninetees, RAF (Bader Meinhof Gruppe) Leute, IRA- and ETA members found refuge in Squater houses in Amsterdam. When I was younger I loved the "Underground", "Anarchist", "Free state" atmosphere of these Squater houses, and went out in their alternative (Independant) concert halls, House parties, discotheques and to my friends studios in those places. However I became increasingly discontent with the political, anti-establishment, Isolated, radical left and so biased standpoints and behavoir which was simplistic anti-American, anti-israel, Pro-Palestinian, naieve Multi-culturalist (with a complete lack of criticism on the reactionairy Muslim migrant cultures in our midst, and the terror of foreign organisations and crime) and Isolationalist way of living of the Squaters. What worries me more than the marginal Neo-Nazi movement in Europe? First and for all; the unlimited and ongoing Materialisation of the world in which Economy seems to be the only important thing, since my youth Capitalism has grown in power and Commercialism has become the only real authority everywhere. I am not anti-capitalist, but I see an ongoing increase of Power of Multi-nationals and Financial markets. Economy, Nationalism (in legitemate Democratic form) and relgious affiliation (mixed with ideology) seems to be the Western standpoint. The Trinity is Capitalism (The United Western Markets), Democracy (the legitimatisation of the political and economical order) and Nationalism (Capitalism in one country). My worry is that there is no power in the world that is able to counterballance this Montheïst power, because China and India joyned the West in this Capitalist world system. In the past you had the competition between the East and the West, with the third block of Independant countries. We see a conflict between Abrahamist Monotheïst faiths inn the Middle east, who have all the same Capitalist Materialist interests; The Arabs, Jews, Western "Christian" Powers (the Christians Bush and Blair), all earn money or need oil, have benefits in the arms trade (Militairy Industrial Complex) and Geopolitical benefits in the region. Secondly it is the fast changing of our societies without the human balance in it, the growing gap between the original populations and immigrants, the gap between rich and poor (which is extreme in America and parts of Europe), and the tentions, segregation and the underlying agression and violence this creates. Neo-Nazism, fascism and extreme Nationalism can be dangerous, but there are many other developments, new movements and crossovers between organisations that in the past opposed eachother which are as worrysome. As you mentioned these new Neo-nazi's are often very sophisticated and in many cases embrace some forms of Communism and Socialism(North-Korea, Iraq's Baath Party, the Serbian Socialist party of Milosevich) and islamism (Iran and Al Qaeda; the German NPD admires those two entities, in it's hatred for America and Capitalism). Links: de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autonomede.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neo-Anarchismusen.wikipedia.org/wiki/Squattingwww.koepi.squat.net/purindex.htmen.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-globalizationwww.ruckus.org/www.scientology.org/www.aspenberlin.org/mediacoverage.php?iGedminId=94
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Post by bescheid on Jul 30, 2006 6:36:03 GMT -7
Leslie I only wish to thank you for describing your expereice whilst a school boy. It was interesting to read your personal observations and your thoughts at that time. Very historical now. I mean this as a very friendly and kind remark. You are a person of history . Charles
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Post by pieter on Jul 30, 2006 6:45:23 GMT -7
Interesting, emphatic and insightful story Leslie!
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Post by bescheid on Jul 30, 2006 7:34:11 GMT -7
Pieter {I was unable to mark your post for ready reference as to the length, but referencing is this: your post was a reply to the Neo-Nazi situation as referenced in the us.} Your powers of observation are very out standing. Perhaps of a natural curiosity and information conducive memory. I would tend to place this as skills and attributes you possess with an artist mind. Very detailed minded. You have brought out very important aspects or counter protest groups at these Neo-Nazi marches. You are absolutely correct with your observations and concerns. {Not every thing is as it appears} Whilst most counter protest crowds are actually concerned citizens demonstrating what they do not like nor want in their society. These are the citizens. As you have brought forward as a very valid concern, is correct on. Other crowds of protesters are in actuality, demonstrating with a focus of amplifying maximum attention upon the Neo-Nazis or which ever other counter organization in active at that time. This to increase their presence and effect. These are not accidental or nut groups, but, to the contrary, professionally trained and very well paid leaders/trainers in the business of a continuous programme of individual recruitment, presentations, skills in obtaining programme funding, formation of group meetings for ideas of what ever may be of public interest that will suit their purposes for new marches and demonstrations. These are the people that are the primary focus of identification and tracking. The Baader-Meinhof-Gruppe {Rote Armee Fraction}RAF. bopedia.com/en/wikipedia/r/re/red_army_faction.htmlThis situation was the cause of a new focus and start up of a new development system of identification/tracking system in Germany. It is primarily of a linked computer system that has the capabilities of sharing with other out side agencies of information/identification and tracking. One of the primary sub link up, is the simple digital camera placed in areas of high and sub personal and vehicle traffic areas. Once a photo is introduced into the system, the computer then will continually search for that individual until the camera image matches the photo. As an artist, you have an understanding of details. A man or women will change with time and age, also of body hair, but, the primary physical aspects will not. This is what the eye detects and the machine follows that principal very well. The American system is almost as good, but has not those attributes as in the German system. Americans do not intrinsically condone being tracked or watched. But, the fact is, they are. Charles
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Post by pieter on Jul 31, 2006 4:45:13 GMT -7
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Post by justjohn on Aug 1, 2006 2:44:16 GMT -7
J.J. Thank you for the information I knew that their were some camps in the US, but just was not sure where. Also, a quick check was very surprizing of the actuall number. uboat.net/men/pow/pow_in_america.htmThe above url is primarly that of the U-boot contingent, but includes some numbers and locations. Charles Charles, Here is more info. As described we intered more than the Japanese during WWII. Missoula, Mont. By JAMES BROOKE MISSOULA, Mont. -- For decades, Italian immigrant families who lived through World War II in the United States did not want to talk about the curfews, confiscations of fishing boats, forced moves from seacoast towns, police searches of their homes and internments here at Fort Missoula. But researchers are fleshing out this obscure footnote to American history: the treatment of 600,000 Italian citizens in the United States who were classified as "enemy aliens" after World War II began. And that is stirring memories among those who lived through it. In 1942, when this old frontier Army post served as one of the nation's largest internment camps, the most widely spoken language at the post was not Japanese or English, but Italian. One of the internees was Alfredo Cipolato, a native Venetian who went from a job as a waiter at the Italian Pavilion of the 1939 World's Fair in New York to a barracks bunk in this once-remote town in western Montana. "One day I come home," said Cipolato, now an American citizen living here, "the FBI are there, and they just put me in jail." In the recent past, fading family memories have been jogged by a documentary film, "Bella Vista," a book, "An Alien Place," by Carol Bulger Van Valkenburg, and an exhibit that has toured 21 American cities and is expected to go to Washington in September. According to the latest research, dozens of Italians lost their fishing boats and hundreds more -- largely bakers, restaurant workers and garbage men -- had to give up jobs because of curfews. About 1,600 Italian citizens were interned, all of them here, and about 10,000 Italian-Americans were forced to move from their houses in California coastal communities to inland homes. And the 600,000 legal Italian immigrants who had not become U.S. citizens were put under travel restrictions. Dozens of American citizens of Italian origin who had shown sympathy for Mussolini were temporarily banished from California. "The majority of Italian-Americans still don't know that this happened," said Lawrence DiStasi, director of the traveling exhibit, "Storia Segreta," or Secret History. "There are people who come to our exhibit who suddenly remember that it happened in their families, too. The Italian immigrants were caught up, to a milder degree, in the hysteria that swept the West Coast after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor on Dec. 7, 1941. While all the interned Italians were citizens of Italy, about two-thirds of the interned Japanese were American citizens. The anti-Japanese measures lasted the length of the war, while the anti-Italian restrictions mostly ended after less than a year. About 110,000 Japanese immigrants and Japanese-Americans were interned in a network of camps, including Fort Missoula. In this sweep of people suspected of sympathy with enemies of the United States, 10,905 Germans and German-Americans as well as a few Bulgarians, Czechs, Hungarians and Romanians were interned. The U.S. government apologized in 1988 to the Japanese-Americans interned during World War II and started paying reparations of $20,000 each to survivors. "My government has apologized to the Japanese nationals. Where is the apology to me?" asked Art Jacobs, a Brooklyn native who at the age of 12 was interned with his father, a legal resident from Germany, at a camp in Crystal City, Texas. Jacobs, a retired U.S. Air Force major, said that German-American associations were generally silent about the internment for fear of dredging up old emotions linking Germans and Nazis. From another site: 1942 – 1943 Internment camps administered by the military and the DOJ are established throughout the country. The INS operated the DOJ camps. The largest were located at Crystal City and Seagoville, Texas and Ft. Lincoln, ND. There were at least 50 temporary detention and long-term internment facilities. Internees are transferred from camp to camp under armed guard, further disrupting their lives and making it even more difficult for their families to find them. 1942 US Government initiated exchanges of approximately 2,000 internees for Americans held in Germany. Six exchange voyages carried many families to Germany, including American-born children and US citizen spouses of German alien internees. As the war progressed, travel across the Atlantic was increasing hazardous. Upon arrival in war-ravaged Germany, exchangees were unexpected and unwanted by their families. Many are suspected of being spies. Families with young children, some even born during the trip to Germany, had to make their own way to family homes through hazardous countryside, frequently in winter, carrying all their worldly belongings. Some men were beaten and arrested by the Gestapo as spies and put in camps, leaving families destitute again. 1942 The US initiated a cooperative program whereby Latin American countries at US direction captured German Latin Americans, including German and Austrian Jews who had fled persecution. Under US military guard, prisoners were shipped to the US in the dark, dank holds of boats and rarely permitted on deck. Open bucket latrines were placed among the prisoners. No one told them what was happening to them. They were interned and many forcibly shipped to Germany. General George Marshall stated in a 12/12/42 memo to the Caribbean Defense Command: "These interned nationals are to be used for exchange with interned American civilian nationals." By the end of the war, over 4,050 German Latin Americans were brought to American internment camps. 1942 – 1945 Thousands of German aliens and German Americans are arrested, interned, excluded, paroled, exchanged and generally harassed by a suspicious country. Few know why they are interned or for how long. Internees try to make lives in camps, attempting to ignore the psychological and physical upheaval to which they have been subjected. Mental anguish, anger, guilt and shame are common. Armed guards and guard dogs watch over internees living in huts or dorms in barren parts of the country surrounded by barbed wire, observed from guard towers. All mail is censored. Contact with the outside world is severely limited. Many continually appeal their internment orders. DOJ generally ignores their requests, requiring unobtainable "new evidence" for consideration of appeals. Some are granted rehearings, pursuant to which an even smaller number are released. Internees who are released do not know why, nor do they ever learn why they were interned. Those released are generally subject to parole restrictions. Internees are pressured to repatriate. Hopeless and bitter, many agree and are readily used for exchange. There were six exchanges with Germany, primarily of civilians, but also of POWs. One trip of the SS Gripsholm in January 1945 involves 1,000 exchangees. The government arranges for "trustworthy" able-bodied men to work outside camps. One group works on the Northern Pacific Railroad in North Dakota repairing the railroad tracks and living in boxcars with coal stoves throughout the winter. Others work for the Forest Service and 3M. May 7, 1945 Germany surrenders. More info here:www.foitimes.com/internment/Myths.htm
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Post by justjohn on Aug 1, 2006 3:01:02 GMT -7
Map and listing of internment camps and detention centers known to have held German American civilians
By state and country
To read stories regarding German American internment click here
LOCATIONS BY STATE/COUNTRY JURISDICTION
CALIFORNIA
Angel Island Military
San Pedro INS
San Ysidro INS
Sharp Park INS
Tujunga (Tuna Canyon INS
COLORADO
Denver, City INS
Ft. Logan Military
CONNECTICUT
Hartford, Community Center Building INS
CUBA
Pine Island INS
FLORIDA
Ft. Barrancas Military
Miami INS
Tampa dwelling INS
GEORGIA
Fort Oglethorpe Military
Fort Screven Military
HAWAII
Sand Island Military
Camp Honouliuli Military
ILLINOIS
Chicago
4800 Ellis Avenue INS
Home of the Good Shepherd INS
LOUISIANA
Algiers INS/State Department
New Orleans (Jung Hotel) INS/State Department
MASSACHUSETTS
East Boston INS
MARYLAND
Fort Howard, Baltimore Military
Fort Meade Military
MEXICO
Nuevo Laredo INS/State Department
MICHIGAN
Detroit INS
MINNESOTA
St. Paul, County Jail INS
MISSOURI
Kansas City INS
St. Louis County Jail INS
MONTANA
Fort Missoula Military
NEBRASKA
Fort Crook, Omaha Military
Omaha (Good Shepherd Convent) INS
NEW JERSEY
Gloucester City INS
NEW MEXICO
Fort Stanton Military
Lordsburg INS
NEW YORK
Buffalo (Home of the Good Shepherd) INS
Camp Upton Military
Ellis Island INS
Niagara Falls INS
Syracuse, former fire station INS
NORTH CAROLINA
Asheville (Grove Park Inn) INS
NORTH DAKOTA
Fort Lincoln Military
OHIO
Cincinnati
Hotel Gibson INS
417 W. 4th Str. - Post Office Building INS
Hamilton County Workhouse INS
Cleveland
Home of the Good Shepherd INS
Former Police Station INS
OKLAHOMA
Fort Sill Military
McAlester Military
Stringtown Military
OREGON
Portland, County Jail INS
PENNSYLVANIA
Nanticoke, State Armory INS
Philadelphia (Home of the Good Shepherd) INS
Pittsburgh, Penn Armory INS
PUERTO RICO
San Juan Military (placed on map, but Puerto Rico
itself not shown)
TENNESSEE
Camp Forrest Military
TEXAS
Crystal City INS
Fort Bliss Military
Fort Sam Houston Military
Houston, former Police Station INS
Kenedy INS
Laredo INS
San Antonio INS
Seagoville INS
UTAH
Salt Lake City, County Jail INS
WASHINGTON
Seattle INS
Spokane (County Jail) INS
Sullivan Lake Military
WEST VIRGINIA
White Sulphur Springs (Greenbrier Hotel) INS/State Department
WISCONSIN
Camp McCoy Military
Milwaukee
Home of the Good Shepherd INS
Milwaukee Barracks (County Jail) INS
Updated July 30, 2005. The foregoing listing cites almost 70 locations for the internment of civilians in the United States during World War II.. In October 1990, the author, under the Freedom of Information and Privacy Act, requested an exhaustive list of the internment facilities and detention centers used by the U.S. Government during World War II. Almost two years later, on August 23, 1993, the Immigration and Naturalization Service responded with a partial list and said, "no guarantee can be made that the list provided is exhaustive. No definitive list now exists." See FOIPA request CO 2.12.-C; CO 904151
We remain astonished that the multi-million dollar 1982 report, Personal Justice Denied, of the Commission on Wartime Relocation and Internment of Civilians depicts only four internment sites in the United States. Furthermore the report does not report on any internment facilities east of the Mississippi River. See page xii of the cited report.
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Post by bescheid on Aug 1, 2006 8:55:08 GMT -7
J.J.
Thank you for your work and time with the research necessary for obtaining this very intensive extensive amount of information. It was stunning to my senses of the disclosure of over 70 internment camps set up for civilians. And not withstanding of the numbers of military detention camps.
The information also pertaining to the Italian immigrant families was very interesting to know. A case in point of very bad timing with unfolding of events undermining their prime reason of immigration to the new country of opportunity and dreams come true.
The civilian population was such a shame, but, it is understandable in light of the war time situation. for I would only suppose the safety of the nation {American} was of prime perquisites over the possible dangers of enemy infiltration in the disguise as of civilians. It is a situation that is difficult for my self to comprehend, but yet, very understandable as a point-in-case of:
{The sacrifice of the interest of the few,,,for the interest of the many}
Charles
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Post by hollister on Aug 2, 2006 6:57:47 GMT -7
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piwo
Citizen of the World
Co Słychać?
Posts: 1,189
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Post by piwo on Aug 2, 2006 15:16:45 GMT -7
as for content of posts, I find it an interesting topic and worthy of discussion. I've no problem learning of treatment of German POW's, Russian, USA, Japan, or any other. It's just history. Perhaps another forum should be considered for posts dealing with discussions of "non-Polish" history, perhaps not since it's all tied into a single event: World War ll.
There are examples in that nightmare of chivalry, kindness, compassion, resolve, treachery, butchery and betrayal by all who participated. Some went beyond even that with medical experiments and outright Occult type savagery... but it is, in the end , just history. It happened, and if discussed without rancor, finger pointing and acrimony, I've no problem with it at all.
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