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Post by jimpres on Sept 13, 2006 8:17:42 GMT -7
Interesting article about Sharia law coming to Holland.
AMSTERDAM — Dutch Justice Minister Piet Hein Donner has provoked an angry response by stating it has to be possible for Sharia Law to be introduced in the Netherlands via democratic means.
The Christian Democrat (CDA) minister made the suggestion during an interview for the book 'Het land van haat en nijd' (the land of hate and malice) which was published on Wednesday.
Donner indicated he was not happy with the tone of the integration debate in the Netherlands.
Muslims, he said, just like Protestants and Roman Catholics, have a right to the perceptions of their religion, even if that included dissenting rules of behaviour such as imams refusing to shake hands with women.
He went on to say: "It must be possible for Muslim groups to come to power [in the Netherlands] via democratic means. Every citizen may argue why the law should be changed, as long as he sticks to the law.
"It is a sure certainty for me: if two thirds of all Netherlanders tomorrow would want to introduce Sharia, then this possibility must exist. Could you block this legally? It would also be a scandal to say 'this isn't allowed!
"The majority counts. That is the essence of democracy."
His remarks are contrary to the stance taken by MP Maxime Verhagen, leader of the CDA in parliament. Verhagen had expressed concern Sharia Law could be introduced in city districts where Muslims are already in the majority.
Right-wing MP Geert Wilders of the Party for Freedom has posed written questions to Donner.
Wilders said Donner should be defending Dutch norms and values and resisting the introduction of "barbarous Sharia Law" in the Netherlands. The minister will face a motion of no confidence if he sticks to his views, Wilders warned.
Labour (PvdA), the largest opposition party, has also expressed surprise at Donner. MP Jeroen Dijsselbloem said Donner seemed to be forgetting that several points of Sharia Law are in conflict with the Dutch Constitution. "The Minister for Justice must invest his energies in opposing these sorts of opinions rather than signalling that such ideas can form part of our democracy," Dijsselbloem said.
Jim
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Post by pieter on Sept 13, 2006 9:21:21 GMT -7
Interesting article about Sharia law coming to Holland. AMSTERDAM — Dutch Justice Minister Piet Hein Donner has provoked an angry response by stating it has to be possible for Sharia Law to be introduced in the Netherlands via democratic means. The Christian Democrat (CDA) minister made the suggestion during an interview for the book 'Het land van haat en nijd' (the land of hate and malice) which was published on Wednesday. Donner indicated he was not happy with the tone of the integration debate in the Netherlands. Muslims, he said, just like Protestants and Roman Catholics, have a right to the perceptions of their religion, even if that included dissenting rules of behaviour such as imams refusing to shake hands with women. He went on to say: "It must be possible for Muslim groups to come to power [in the Netherlands] via democratic means. Every citizen may argue why the law should be changed, as long as he sticks to the law. "It is a sure certainty for me: if two thirds of all Netherlanders tomorrow would want to introduce Sharia, then this possibility must exist. Could you block this legally? It would also be a scandal to say 'this isn't allowed! "The majority counts. That is the essence of democracy." His remarks are contrary to the stance taken by MP Maxime Verhagen, leader of the CDA in parliament. Verhagen had expressed concern Sharia Law could be introduced in city districts where Muslims are already in the majority. Right-wing MP Geert Wilders of the Party for Freedom has posed written questions to Donner. Wilders said Donner should be defending Dutch norms and values and resisting the introduction of "barbarous Sharia Law" in the Netherlands. The minister will face a motion of no confidence if he sticks to his views, Wilders warned. Labour (PvdA), the largest opposition party, has also expressed surprise at Donner. MP Jeroen Dijsselbloem said Donner seemed to be forgetting that several points of Sharia Law are in conflict with the Dutch Constitution. "The Minister for Justice must invest his energies in opposing these sorts of opinions rather than signalling that such ideas can form part of our democracy," Dijsselbloem said. Jim Jim, Thank you for posting this, and I am suprised that I have missed this information, probably because I have a weekend edition of my newspaper (get the paper on friday and saturday). It try to follow the news every day on the Dutch public television and radio (when I wake up in the morning). Commerical TV station news too. This Piet Hein Donner is a very stif, old fashionate, Calvinist minister, who had several clashes with the Dutch parlaiment the last years. His Christian-democratic party wants to be a multi-faith party, and so tries to attract Conservative Muslim votes, Hindu votes, and African christian votes from the large minority (immigrant groups) in our country. Many Christian-democrats don't like that because they are orthodox-protestants (Dutch reformed) or Conservative Roman-Catholics, or even secular conservatives who voted for the CDA, because of it's rightwing, social-program. They want the CDA be Christian only, and it to be the family and value party. From the other hand you have Muslim CDA (Turkish, Surinamese, Maroccan) politicians in the local, regional authorities and on the National level. You also have a large Social-christian, left wing of the party connected to the Christian (Protestant) Union CNV, and progressive christian groups. I think Donner is crazy, and in some cases I am not democratic at all. In the thirtees the NSDAP was democraticly elected, if then a coalition of let's say Social-democrats, Zentrum (Catholics) and Prussian conservatives would have made a coup 'd état, dismantled the NDSAP and it's organisations undemocratically that would have been better than the Nazi-rule. The same in Turkey, where the army (Caretaker of the Secular constitution of the country) put aside a Fundamentalist government in 1997, and Algeria, where the army prevented the formation of a FIS government in 1991. To say it simply, we Dutch civilians don't want Sharia in our country, even when there will be a Muslim majority in a city like Amsterdam. I think and hope that most Mulsims don't want that either. Can't know for sure! Thanks for posting Jim! Pieter
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Post by pieter on Sept 13, 2006 9:24:40 GMT -7
Piet Hein Donner
Jan Pieter Hendrik Donner (born 20 October 1948 in Amsterdam) is the current Dutch Minister of Justice in the third Balkenende cabinet as member of the Dutch Christian Democratic Appeal (CDA). He previously served as Minister of Justice in the first Balkenende cabinet and was member of the Dutch Council of State. The Donner family is one of justices. Piet Hein Donner's father, André Donner, was a judge of the European Court of Justice in the period 1958-1979 and was part of the government commission that looked into the dealings of Prince Bernhard of the Netherlands with the Lockheed Corporation. His grandfather was Jan Donner, who served as Minister of Justice for the Anti Revolutionary Party in the first cabinet of Dirk Jan de Geer and was later president of the Hoge Raad, the supreme body of judiciary review in the Netherlands. Piet Hein Donner studied law at the Free University (Calvinist) of Amsterdam, obtaining a degree in 1974. In 2006 Piet Hein Donner recorded a rap song together with Meester G to explain his point of view on the Dutch soft drug policy. It was a reply to a song by mayor Gerd Leers of Maastricht (with punk band The Heideroosjes), who asks for a more progressive policy which would not only regulate the selling of soft drugs, but also legalise the production.
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Post by bescheid on Sept 13, 2006 11:28:58 GMT -7
pieter
It is always good to have new information as an asset to draw upon. In as much to Amesterdam and that also, of freedom that the Dutch are very famiious for. It is the good of the people.
But, as you well know, I as a person am very conservitive to a diffenant fault. As also I am intrinsically knowledgeable that the basic heart of the Dutch are not that different then my self. For we are of the land.
But, whilst we baske in the sunshine and the gliter of the see. Our eyes have a tendency to dim and close for a bit. And then a new appriation arrises. The Isalmic typen idealisum, under the desquise of Democracy. Simply put{a new type of {Scheißen} under a differant name. Would this be the tail wagging the dog?
Sharia is good when practiced in the desert of nothing but camels and forever desert and the heat. It has no place in Europe.
It would be my sincer hope and trust, as I intrinsicaly know, The Dutch folken will not allow this to occure.
Those islamic folk that live withen the goodness of your country, must make up their minds. For are they the new Dutch, or, or they just taking up space, other wise, they should make leave for the place of their dreams for ever where as long as it is beyound the see.
Well dear friend. Perhaps my presence may not be welcomed, but, these thoughts of my person, are what I am constituted of, I am a Teutonic warriour, and am too old to continue, and too smart too late. For the blade of the sword, is not much match for the cutting edge of a printed word.
Our world is what we make it to be. Remember, to insure our way of life, our enimies must suffer the pain of giving up their lives, so as to insure our way of life. Yes, it is a war. And to win this of any war, there is no substitute for total victory.
Charles
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Post by pieter on Sept 13, 2006 12:14:18 GMT -7
pieter It is always good to have new information as an asset to draw upon. In as much to Amesterdam and that also, of freedom that the Dutch are very famiious for. It is the good of the people. But, as you well know, I as a person am very conservitive to a diffenant fault. As also I am intrinsically knowledgeable that the basic heart of the Dutch are not that different then my self. For we are of the land. But, whilst we baske in the sunshine and the gliter of the see. Our eyes have a tendency to dim and close for a bit. And then a new appriation arrises. The Isalmic typen idealisum, under the desquise of Democracy. Simply put{a new type of {Scheißen} under a differant name. Would this be the tail wagging the dog? Sharia is good when practiced in the desert of nothing but camels and forever desert and the heat. It has no place in Europe. It would be my sincer hope and trust, as I intrinsicaly know, The Dutch folken will not allow this to occure. Those islamic folk that live withen the goodness of your country, must make up their minds. For are they the new Dutch, or, or they just taking up space, other wise, they should make leave for the place of their dreams for ever where as long as it is beyound the see. Well dear friend. Perhaps my presence may not be welcomed, but, these thoughts of my person, are what I am constituted of, I am a Teutonic warriour, and am too old to continue, and too smart too late. For the blade of the sword, is not much match for the cutting edge of a printed word. Our world is what we make it to be. Remember, to insure our way of life, our enimies must suffer the pain of giving up their lives, so as to insure our way of life. Yes, it is a war. And to win this of any war, there is no substitute for total victory. Charles Charles, Ofcourse youn are welcome, I don't see Germans, or an German-American as my enemy. I see extremism, backwardness and idiotic politicians like Donner as a threat to my liberty, because they give in to idiotic demands or ideas, while an exellent person (who recently said she loves Holland, who gave her so much chances) Hirsi Ali was forced to leave, due to the political climate. I fear that politicians like Donner and others of his like in the other larger Political movements give a dangerous signal to society, namely that we give in to newcommers, give up our own culture, morality, tradition, and most important of all our Freedom, Democracy, Legal system and constitution. Because those thing will fade away when sharia would be installed. I tell you that when Sharia would be installed here you would emediately have an army of Batavian Teutonic warriers, who would drive the Muslims who want Sharia back to where they came from or over the boarder into Germany, so that the Germans can deal with them. Pieter
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Post by pieter on Sept 14, 2006 4:28:24 GMT -7
My latest reaction of yesterday was to emotional, I was taken away by the impact of the message by this minister. Yesterday evening I heard for the first time about the Donner remarks on the Dutch television. There was no agigated atmosphere, but a poised discussion, luckily most politicians, journalists and public figures reacted with self-restraint, and formulated their criticizm. Sharia is unlikely to be ever introduced in the Netherlands, because the majority (inclusive the majority of Dutch Muslims) reject it, and stands behind the constitution, Dutch legal system, the pluriformity of the Democratic system and the Freedom we have. Many integrated, Moderate Dutch Muslims, have built a life here, learned Dutch, work in a predominantly Non-Mulsim environment, have Dutch social circles and friends, have often mixed mariages, share Dutch values and respect the law. Many of them are integrated secular Muslims, who drink beer, go out, dress Western, and live Dutch lives. A tiny monority, like the 9-11 terrorists, have deeply anti-Western views, are involved in illegal activities and want to undermine the Dutch society and attack the democratic system, they hate. And that is dangerous enough. This group will grow bigger, when they would manage in polarising the society, creating a wig between the majority of Dutch natives and the minority of Muslims in this country.
Pieter
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Post by bescheid on Sept 14, 2006 8:44:01 GMT -7
My latest reaction of yesterday was to emotional, I was taken away by the impact of the message by this minister. Yesterday evening I heard for the first time about the Donner remarks on the Dutch television. There was no agigated atmosphere, but a poised discussion, luckily most politicians, journalists and public figures reacted with self-restraint, and formulated their criticizm. Sharia is unlikely to be ever introduced in the Netherlands, because the majority (inclusive the majority of Dutch Muslims) reject it, and stands behind the constitution, Dutch legal system, the pluriformity of the Democratic system and the Freedom we have. Many integrated, Moderate Dutch Muslims, have built a life here, learned Dutch, work in a predominantly Non-Mulsim environment, have Dutch social circles and friends, have often mixed mariages, share Dutch values and respect the law. Many of them are integrated secular Muslims, who drink beer, go out, dress Western, and live Dutch lives. A tiny monority, like the 9-11 terrorists, have deeply anti-Western views, are involved in illegal activities and want to undermine the Dutch society and attack the democratic system, they hate. And that is dangerous enough. This group will grow bigger, when they would manage in polarising the society, creating a wig between the majority of Dutch natives and the minority of Muslims in this country. Pieter pieter Your words have inspired my trust of the intrinsic reality that is within the hearts and minds of honest people. It is so true of all the vast majority of folks, rather be it from where ever, with a common goal. And that is to create a life for them selves, work to earn a living for them selves and their families. To pursue for all that is within their reach to do. This is the strength of a country, the sum total of the people with a common goal, and that is to build. The strength of a constitution and laws of the land, become stronger as it is tested, and as so the will of the people. It would appear to reasonable people, that your land is being tested by a few against the majority, and the majority has won. It is ok to be emotional when confronted with such important issues, it is an indication that you care. Charles
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