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Post by Jaga on Nov 28, 2006 12:32:39 GMT -7
I did not want to ask the question whether it is good that the pope Benedict visits Turkey. I believe that h eis a courageous man to visit the land of Islam after all these troubles with anti-pope demonstrations. What I worry about - whether his visit would ignite more conflict or it would lead to more understanding between the both faiths (ANKARA, Turkey) — Pope Benedict XVI began his first visit to a Muslim country Tuesday with a message of dialogue and "brotherhood" between faiths and told Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan that he now supports Turkey's bid to join the European Union. Benedict also said guarantees of religious freedom are essential for a just society and urged all religious leaders to "utterly reject" any form of violence in the name of faith — carefully avoiding a direct reference to Islam, but citing the "disturbing" violence in the Middle East and raising worries of more bloodshed and terrorism around the world. from: www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1563641,00.html
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Post by bescheid on Nov 28, 2006 13:25:13 GMT -7
My vote on this question was yes. It is the sum-total of my feelings and thinking.
We have here two the worlds greatest religious powers, that of Catholic and that Islam. In spite of past differences, it is for the common good to have this meeting and reconciliation.
In the past, whilst a Cardinal, then Joseph Ratzinger had made well known his displeasure and opinion of Turkey being not compatible to the EU culture and would be against that of Turkey entering into the EU. That is past, so it would seem.
So also that it would seem, the Turkish minister is very sharp in wits with his invitation for the Pope to make this visit. For if the two will resolve their differences, then in self will create a smoother climate of EU entry for Turkey.
The side advantage would of course be catalyst of consolidation of the two faiths to contrast with the radical Muslim contention. In other words, it would isolate the Muslim radical faction in Turkey and remove social support for those groups.
Charles
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Post by constantine on Dec 1, 2006 7:45:26 GMT -7
We have here two the worlds greatest religious powers, that of Catholic and that Islam. In spite of past differences, it is for the common good to have this meeting and reconciliation. Charles Do you really think that concord or some sort of ecumenism between Christians and Islam may be achieved?
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Post by bescheid on Dec 1, 2006 10:35:56 GMT -7
We have here two the worlds greatest religious powers, that of Catholic and that Islam. In spite of past differences, it is for the common good to have this meeting and reconciliation. Charles Do you really think that concord or some sort of ecumenism between Christians and Islam may be achieved? Constantine You have asked an excellent question and that is what I think. How may I say? For how I feel and what I think is a vast difference separated by intellect and training as to feeling being intrinsic to self. Ok, what I think of this meeting, is, I do not believe for a moment of any thing, until the ink is dry and what ever fall out has been resolved. There lays a two part situation with this meeting and it may be of benefit to both sides, or it may be a disaster in the making. For one thing, Turkey is poised to enter into the EU, but, there are many fixes on the part of Turkey that must be addressed in rapid fashion. For one thing, the human abuses of some minorities must be addressed for correction by the Turkish Government. The other sticky issue, is Cypress. This is a situation that must be addressed and resolved between Turkey and Greek government. The other reason of visit by the Pope, is the invitation by President Ahmet Necdet Sezer {Turkish President} for the visit. Is to iron out some very long standing tensions created from the Roman times. Sounds silly of course to us as so called modern people, but it is a reality that dates back some what of 500 years. Leading from the early conquest of Istanbul by the Byzantine Empire after forming an alliance with Rome. The then Vatican only agreed with the condition of dominance by the Vatican over the Patriarchate, and these conditions were accepted and now, this still sticks in the craw of the ecumencial of the Moscow Orthodox Church. The Pope has past shown a considerable amount of disdain to the entry of Turkey into the EU. And as such, that being Turkey is a primarily Muslim nation {with separation of state from religion} The Pope inturn, is not exactly popular with the Islamic people over some past remarks publically made against Islam,actually seen as a snub. If by opportunity, the Pope will successfully change his image in the eyes of the Muslims, then, at least that split will be resolved. Those very large and nasty Islamic crowds of protesters seen, are not constituted entirely by concerned citizens but, follow the frame work of most political protest marches. They are professionally staged and lead by people trained in this type of work. In other words, professionally lead. These professionals know and understand, that most political marches and protests in large numbers, are photographed and identified for surveillance. At a later date, to possibly be detained for information purposes. Charles
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Post by pieter on Dec 2, 2006 5:32:42 GMT -7
We have here two the worlds greatest religious powers, that of Catholic and that Islam. In spite of past differences, it is for the common good to have this meeting and reconciliation. Charles Do you really think that concord or some sort of ecumenism between Christians and Islam may be achieved? Constantine, I don't think that oecumenism between Christians and Islam will ever happen, because the doctrine's, theology and basic principles of both faiths are completely differant, in Christianity christ is the Messiah and the son of god, and in Islam Jesus is a highly respected and important Prophet. Look at the Catholic and Besanthine (Orthodox) church relations, how difficult it is to have an eocomene between them, the Christian and Islamic faiths are just to differant. You can respect eachother, but do not have to cooperate or merge faiths. Islam is a younger fiath, who is going through a difficult stage in it's history, with a lot of internal struggle within the Sunni- and Shia fiaths, between more liberal and more conservative or radical interpretations. And the tensions between the Sunni- and Shia fiaths are rising. Look for instance at the pro-Syrian demonstration in Lebanon yesterday. There were no Sunni-muslims, only Shia- and Pro-Syrian christians. The Iraq civil war between Sunni's and Shia's will have it's effect on the region, because Saoudi Arabia, has said that it will invade Iraq, when the Americans will withdraw, when the Shia militia will butcher the Sunni minority. In that case ofcourse Iran will invade Iraq to support the Shia muslims of Iraq. Most christian minorities in the Middle-east are treated badly, the Copts in Egypt, The Assyrian- and Armenian christians in Iraq, and the Palestinian christians in Gaza and on the Westbank. The origine of the Lebanese civil war was the massacre of Maronite christians in Lebanon, by Palestianians and their Lebanese Islamic allies. And that's why there are a lot of Pro-israeli and Pro-Western Christians in Lebanon, next to their Pro-Syrian Christian opponents. What I do believe however, that the strict secular Turkey, with the heritage of Ataturk (the Moderniser of Turkey, the Pilsudski of Turkey) could be a member of the European Union in the long term, when it reforms itself to European standards, in the case of human rights, the treatment of ethnic and religious minorities. Many Europeans voted against the European consitution, not because of the Constitution or for European reasons, but against the entering of Turkey in the EU. Turks are an important minority in my country and neigbourhood, most of them are Muslims, but a great part of them are Secular. You have liberal, social democrat and christian-democratic politicians of Turkish and Maroccan descent. (but after the last elections in which left- and right populists won seats, their number dropped). Link:
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Post by pieter on Dec 2, 2006 5:51:26 GMT -7
I wanted to show this Youtube clip, because everybody knows the Sabra and Shatila massacre of 1982, but not many people know that before that there was an ongoing terror of Palestinian Fatah militia's and leftwing-Mulsim militia's in Lebanon in the seventees and early eightees. Ofcourse the Lebanese Forces (far-right Maronite militia) also commited gruesome acts, but the quilt lies not on one side. In the public opinion in Europe (the European media) often the Israeli-Maronite side was the agressor.
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Post by pieter on Dec 2, 2006 5:55:27 GMT -7
It is hopeful that the Pope's visit has improved the image of the Vatican and Catholic faith in Turkey, because the Muslimcountry is not very tolerant towards the Christian- and other relgious minorities. Islam is seen by manny as the only faith, from Islamic fundementalists and Nationalists (Grey Wolves) to Patriotic Social-democrats and secular Conservatives, because all those people are Sunni Muslims (also the majority of the Kurd minority is Sunni Muslim).
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Post by pieter on Dec 3, 2006 6:58:29 GMT -7
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Post by Jaga on Dec 4, 2006 9:08:46 GMT -7
Pieter,
thanks for your input. It looks as like the pope visit in Turkey improved the relations between muslim world and the Catholic Church. Everything went smoothly and positive. You are right - Christians are sometimes treated badly especially in muslim countries.
The pope even changed his mind and is for Turkey being accepted by EU
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Post by constantine on Dec 8, 2006 4:17:13 GMT -7
Do you really think that concord or some sort of ecumenism between Christians and Islam may be achieved? Constantine You have asked an excellent question and that is what I think. How may I say? For how I feel and what I think is a vast difference separated by intellect and training as to feeling being intrinsic to self. Ok, what I think of this meeting, is, I do not believe for a moment of any thing, until the ink is dry and what ever fall out has been resolved. Charles Oh, Charles, please don't provoke me on imprudent statements, that we must reconquer Constantinopol back.....
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Post by kaima on Dec 9, 2006 2:04:35 GMT -7
I think the Pope was brave and did what was necessary in taking this visit to Istanbul. There will likely never be reconciliation between Christian churches East and West, or even among the western sects of Christiandom. With Islam all we can hope to achieve is a peaceful mutual respect, and what the Pope has done is toward this aim, and we are all the better for it!
Kai
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Post by constantine on Dec 9, 2006 3:59:45 GMT -7
I think the Pope was brave and did what was necessary in taking this visit to Istanbul. There will likely never be reconciliation between Christian churches East and West, or even among the western sects of Christiandom. With Islam all we can hope to achieve is a peaceful mutual respect, and what the Pope has done is toward this aim, and we are all the better for it! Kai ...they lived long and happily and died in one day...amen! Such a fantasic Utopia!!!
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Post by Jaga on Dec 9, 2006 9:51:56 GMT -7
Constantine,
the next trip of pope should be to Russia. He should be received better than our Polish pope. John Paul II tried to visit Russia several times but the Russian orthodox church did not want him there. This pope is German and Russia always had better relations with Germany than with Poland. So, maybe finally the orthodox church would let him in
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Post by Jaga on Dec 9, 2006 9:53:36 GMT -7
I think the Pope was brave and did what was necessary in taking this visit to Istanbul. There will likely never be reconciliation between Christian churches East and West, or even among the western sects of Christiandom. With Islam all we can hope to achieve is a peaceful mutual respect, and what the Pope has done is toward this aim, and we are all the better for it! Kai ...they lived long and happily and died in one day...amen! Such a fantasic Utopia!!! Constantine, why Orthodox church from Russia never tries to cooperate with other churches. They seem to fear Catholics more then Communists in spite of the fact that these are Communists that were trying to destry them? It seems that Orthodox Church need some new blood, a new reform
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Post by kaima on Dec 9, 2006 12:54:42 GMT -7
...they lived long and happily and died in one day...amen! Such a fantasic Utopia!!! Yea, good Russian attitude: pi** on each other and everyone within reach so you have a warm and cozy feeling for the few moments before it freezes on you! The tendency for mutual destruction seems to be overpowering and easily seems to conquer open dialog. Kai
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