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Post by constantine on Dec 26, 2006 8:09:01 GMT -7
Constantine, Bujno They are disappointed with modern democracy today because they have to take care of and dependd on themselves. Thanks God!!!! Now I take you at your words! So you recognazed just now that RUSSIA is a DEMOCRATIC state and Putin is not a bloodish murder!!! ;D
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Post by constantine on Dec 26, 2006 8:46:32 GMT -7
Moreover, my grand-grand-grandfather, who was one of Leo Tolstoy's disciple and a writer, was killed in 1920 by his neighbours in his village. This was a civil and fratricidal war. There is a difference between a single emotional outburst of hatred which results in death of some individuals in one place and the system of mass repression which is organised by the state and afflicts many places all over the country. And I think that this page was tuned over when we buried our last tsar Nicolas II in 1996. Well, one thing Russia need is civil concord, that's why Lenin's body still lies in mausoleum, that's why all monuments of previous regime are still on their places. We don't have enough time and strength to rummage in history. Everything was estimated, everybody was forgave, all actions were excused after so many years. And society is very healthy and in good shape and without strong politicization.
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Pawian
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Post by Pawian on Dec 26, 2006 9:38:59 GMT -7
They are disappointed with modern democracy today because they have to take care of and dependd on themselves. Thanks God!!!! Now I take you at your words! So you recognazed just now that RUSSIA is a DEMOCRATIC state and Putin is not a bloodish murder!!! ;D I have never said anything like that. Russia IS a democratic country, even if this democracy is frail, but compared to the past, when there was never any democracy, it is an incredible progress. Russians are doing a great job, really. The only problem is that Russians seem to delay forming a sort of mental democracy , a democratic society in which people protect and defend their personal freedom in all spheres of life. It is a herittage of the past centuries. Russians like when there is a strong ruler: a president/tsar/secretary, who doesn`t allow local apparatchiks/boyars/tycoons/barons become too oppressive for common people. Russians believe that such a ruler, good batushka, keeps an order in the country, which otherwise would fall apart or stop functioning. It doesn`t matter that sometimes the strong ruler`s policy limits people`s personal freedom. Sacrificing freedom is necessary for the cause of the Russian state functioning properly, that`s what Russians believe. I heard Russians in the other forum who claimed that democracy is outmoded and inefficient, that some new system must be established in Russia. It was suggested that a strong wise patriotic leader who pulls all major strings in the country is an inevitable solution. In Poland we have a totally different attitude. Poles traditionally despise and reject their rulers - they are always suspected of trying to infringe on people`s freedom. In the past it even led to anarchy and corruption. Yet, the Polish gentry`s love for freedom later passed on other classes, e.g. peasants, who had been gentry`s slaves for so long. But when they stopped being slaves, they started loving their freedom too, not less than the gentry. As for Putin being a bloody murderer, we don`t have to look at recent Litvinienko`s case, whether the president ordered the poisoning or not. Let`s recall other orders by Putin which resulted in people`s death. E.g., the Chechen war. Since Bush is called a murderer because of Iraq, so allow me to call Putin a murderer too.
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Post by constantine on Dec 26, 2006 10:13:17 GMT -7
It is a herittage of the past centuries. Russians like when there is a strong ruler: a president/tsar/secretary, who doesn`t allow local apparatchiks/boyars/tycoons/barons become too oppressive for common people. Russians believe that such a ruler, good batushka, keeps an order in the country, which otherwise would fall apart or stop functioning. Yes you are right, but Russia has one fundamental distinction from Poland. Russia, in all times was not only simple state but MARK (as German Mark), course we always were forced to protect our territory from savage hordes from East. And if you ask me "Would you sacrifice your rights and liberties, if quiet and stability of Russia need it?" I shell answer you "Yes I should!"
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Pawian
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Post by Pawian on Dec 26, 2006 14:48:29 GMT -7
Yes you are right, but Russia has one fundamental distinction from Poland. Russia, in all times was not only simple state but MARK (as German Mark), course we always were forced to protect our territory from savage hordes from East. And if you ask me "Would you sacrifice your rights and liberties, if quiet and stability of Russia need it?" I shell answer you "Yes I should!" It wasn`t only protecting. Protecting was throughout the late Middle Ages and finished around 1480 when the remnants of the Golden Horde were removed from the Muscovy territory. However, later it was nothing but an imperial conquest on an unprecedented scale. The Duchy of Muscovy believed it had right to collect all the lands of Rus speaking people and it actually did it, step by step, devouring all neighbours, and not in the East, but in the West. As for limited or lack of liberties in Russia, I recall Norman Davies, whose historical musings you repudiated so strongly lately. He wrote about the origin of differences between Russian, Polish and Western political systems. In the Russian vast territory the population units remained far from each other and that implicated their fragility in case of external danger. That is why they had to depend on some central power which had means to defend those units. That was the tsar - he had the army and the means to punish intrusions into Russian territory. In Poland it was different - populated areas were not too close to each other what implicated the growth of individualism, one of typical Polish traits. People were on their own and were happy with that. Yet, they weren`t so far from each other as to require the central protective power. In case of danger those areas and populated units were able to unite and defend themselves, that is why kings` power was never as necessary in Poland as in Russia. Later it was even feared and despised. As for your acceptance of limited liberties I understand you. You are a patriotic Russian and it is not a secret that Russia is a multination country, still an empire, though much smaller than in the past. Imperial traditions are still very vivid in Russia. Either it can exist in its present form or it shall perish and be broken into several dozen seperate states. As a patriot you certainly don`t want Russia to be dissolved. I understand it. However, I will never accept the idea of forcing anybody to remain in Russia or any other state. Freedom of choice - to leave or to stay - is important.
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Pawian
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Post by Pawian on Dec 26, 2006 15:03:52 GMT -7
Well, one thing Russia need is civil concord, that's why Lenin's body still lies in mausoleum, that's why all monuments of previous regime are still on their places. We don't have enough time and strength to rummage in history. Everything was estimated, everybody was forgave, all actions were excused after so many years. And society is very healthy and in good shape and without strong politicization. You are suggesting that communists are still very strong in Russia. You don`t want another civil war, that is why you prefer not to tease them. Let them have their Lenin and Stalin busts, that will pacify them for a while. But don`t you understand that people shouldn`t close an eye to crimes against humanity such as communists perpetrated? Thus you are giving a clear signal to future perpetrators of similar crimes that everyhting is possible and it won`t be punished, the offenders will be absolved and forgiven again and again. In this way you will never teach people how to distinguish between good and evil. Nazi murderers were condemned worldwide and tried in Germany. Communists in Russia weren`t although they had committed the same crimes. They were just lucky that after a period of nice cohabitation between the Red and Brown regimes (Ribentrop Molotov Pact etc etc) Hitler attacked the Soviet Union. As a result, communists in Russia could say they were victims too and nobody thought of bringing them to court. Don`t you think it is unfair? Yet, I believe there is some hope for Russia too. I have found an article about removing Stalin bust an hour after it had been installed by local communists. The local authorities removed it after people`s intervention. It is very nice to hear there are still people who remember. They are good Russians. Let`s hope there will be more. mosnews.com/news/2005/05/06/stalinbust.shtml
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Post by constantine on Jan 4, 2007 9:11:04 GMT -7
You are suggesting that communists are still very strong in Russia. You don`t want another civil war, that is why you prefer not to tease them. Let them have their Lenin and Stalin busts, that will pacify them for a while. Sorry for my delay with replay, but we have hard week of holidays here and I hurry to replay for some postings during short break before overstraining myself with alcohol and eating in next part. So, I was born in Soviet Union in 1976 but even for me this life is drowned in dim recollections. Therefore, only old generation remembers this kind of life and feels lonely for losed state protection and support. As for communists, they play only minor role on Russian political scene, and may be even more, they have only illusory claims to call themself by this ancient word, because they are fully immersed in atmosphere of moneymaking. But they have indisputable right to worship for their idols as they have no intentions to shake existed in Russia system.
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Post by constantine on Jan 4, 2007 9:37:42 GMT -7
Yet, I believe there is some hope for Russia too. I have found an article about removing Stalin bust an hour after it had been installed by local communists. The local authorities removed it after people`s intervention. It is very nice to hear there are still people who remember. They are good Russians. Let`s hope there will be more. Can I ask you, what is your criterions of "goodness" for Russians? And what would be happened if we would divide Russians on "good" and "bad"?
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bujno
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Post by bujno on Jan 4, 2007 10:40:45 GMT -7
Sorry for my delay with replay, but we have hard week of holidays here and I hurry to replay for some postings during short break before overstraining myself with alcohol and eating in next part. Kostia, I did not believe my bathroom scales when I used on January 1st.... Hard time now at the swimming-pool and even harder in the dining room
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Post by constantine on Jan 4, 2007 11:30:19 GMT -7
Sorry for my delay with replay, but we have hard week of holidays here and I hurry to replay for some postings during short break before overstraining myself with alcohol and eating in next part. Kostia, I did not believe my bathroom scales when I used on January 1st.... Hard time now at the swimming-pool and even harder in the dining room Well, it's even harder for me, because only traces of alcohol are intolerable for me, but at this week I am forced to drink vodka and so on, brrrrr...... Moreover, I think that it is a wrong time for voyages to Russia. Being in one company with one Frenchman during celebrating this New Year, I did some observation on some parts of russian character. Due to some infantility of it, they perceive foreigners as a plaything, trying to give to drink, to feed or to take a steam russian bath by force .
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Pawian
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Post by Pawian on Jan 8, 2007 11:42:05 GMT -7
Can I ask you, what is your criterions of "goodness" for Russians? And what would be happened if we would divide Russians on "good" and "bad"? Isn`t it simple? We can use the example of Germany after WW2. Those who condemned Nazi crimes after they learnt about them were good Germans. Those who secretly admired and worshipped Hitler were bad. In this sense our German friend Bescheid is good because he is far from admiring Nazis. Now, let`s return to Stalin becasue the act of removing his bust is what I praised and thiose who removed it I called good Russians. I understand your reluctance to say direclty your opinion on the times of bolshevik revolution. It was a civil war where a brother stood up against a brother and they all committed cruelties and crimes. That was the time of an all out war. But Stalin times are the times of all-out persecution of the innocent nation. It was during Stalin`s rule when a few million peasants from the Ukraine were INTENTIONALLY starved to death because they opposed kolkhozes. It was then when Stalin organized paranoic political purges with about 1 million people executed and a few millions sent to Gulag. It was during WW2 when Stalin`s incompetence and amateurish leadership cost Russians next millions of lives, especially 3 million of Soviet POWs starved and beaten to death by Nazi hangmen. It was after the WW2 when Russians still couldn`t enjoy a free life in a free country, until Chruszczev came and initiated the thaw. To sum up - those Russians who admire Stalin despite all this what I have written above are bad. I support those Russians who condemn Stalin and his way of ruling the country. Isn`t it simple?
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Pawian
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Post by Pawian on Jan 8, 2007 11:50:23 GMT -7
So, I was born in Soviet Union in 1976 but even for me this life is drowned in dim recollections. Therefore, only old generation remembers this kind of life and feels lonely for losed state protection and support. I was in Moscow a year before your birth. But I was only 7 then so it is drowned in dim recollections too. But I remember some things. I don`t agree with you. Idols who were murderers mustn`t be worshipped. In this way we should also close an eye to worshipping Nazi past in the Baltic countries. Russians w are very indignant when Estonians or Latvians build monuments or organize memorials cherishing their Nazi past. Don`t you think that it is is also caused by Russian tolerance to worshippers of Soviet murderrs? The Balstics think: if Russians remememer butcher Stalin and others, it is nothing wrong when we remember our nazi soldiers who fought against Stalin and his commmunism.
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Post by constantine on Jan 19, 2007 11:38:50 GMT -7
Don`t you think that it is is also caused by Russian tolerance to worshippers of Soviet murderrs? The Balstics think: if Russians remememer butcher Stalin and others, it is nothing wrong when we remember our nazi soldiers who fought against Stalin and his commmunism. Not at all, I think that there is a deep precipice between nazism and communism. Whereas, communists were anxious for human happiness, though only by words and chimericaly, nazism had a most loathsome, misanthropic and racist ideals. With some reserve I can say that all normal people have a communist ideals deep inside (freedom, equality, happiness), but I have an aversion for those who preaches eugenic nonsense. But certainly, all aforesaid concerned only for high ideals but notfor methods.
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Pawian
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Post by Pawian on Jan 22, 2007 13:08:23 GMT -7
Not at all, I think that there is a deep precipice between nazism and communism. Whereas, communists were anxious for human happiness, though only by words and chimericaly, nazism had a most loathsome, misanthropic and racist ideals. With some reserve I can say that all normal people have a communist ideals deep inside (freedom, equality, happiness), but I have an aversion for those who preaches eugenic nonsense. But certainly, all aforesaid concerned only for high ideals but notfor methods. You are talking about ideals, I prefer to look at final results. As many, or even more, people were killed in stalinist communism as in Hitler`s fascism. The only difference is that fascists didn`t lie so much as communists. Nazi goals were clear and available to everybody (Mein Kampf) - get rid of Slavs, Jews, Gypsies and all untermenschen, take their land and make Germany great. Communists were more clever - they pretended to take care of common people while in fact they were exploiting them and exterminating by millions. Communism had a more efficient propaganda machine, that is why its PR was better than fascism. That`s all. I will never agree with the opinion that out of two coexisting totalitarian systems one, namely communism, was better than the other, fascism. It`s just not true.
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