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Post by constantine on Dec 21, 2006 9:56:57 GMT -7
Konstantin Konstantinovich Rokossovsky (Russian: Êîíñòàíòèí Êîíñòàíòèíîâè÷ Ðîêîññîâñêèé, Polish: Konstanty Rokossowski) (December 21, 1896 – August 3, 1968) was a Soviet military commander and Polish Defence Minister. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RokossovskyWhat is your point of view? |
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Post by Jaga on Dec 21, 2006 12:49:09 GMT -7
I think his father was Polish, so he was partly Polish. Yes, he was sent to Poland from Russia.... but we could end up with the worse apparatchik than him. I did not really live in the time when he was an important guy in Poland but.... I guess, Poles did not really hate him that much than some other Soviets...
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Pawian
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Post by Pawian on Dec 23, 2006 13:26:04 GMT -7
He was of Polish origin, that`s true, but he wasn`t a Polish patriot. He was a Defence Minister during the worst stalinist period when many officers were imprisoned and even executed on false accusations of spying or treason. They were the best officers, they fought with Germans during WW2, and their only fault was that they had gotten their ranks before the war, in capitalist Poland.
Rokossovski was a representative of Stalin and as such he advocated and implemented the stalinist system of oppression in the army.
Even Polish communists, Gomułka and others, didn`t want him in Poland. That`s why in 1956 he was taken back by his comrades to the Soviet Union where he truly belonged.
A Soviet general in a Polish uniform. Disgusting.
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Pawian
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Post by Pawian on Dec 23, 2006 13:42:56 GMT -7
Konstantin Konstantinovich Rokossovsky What is your point of view? Now, you brought up this Rokossovski. It came to my mind to ask you about your opinion on Feliks Dzherzhynski, Bloody Felix, a butcher of many Russians during the revolution and later, the creator of infamous Czeka secret police. My opinion on him is unambigously negative. A mad murderer, probably mentally sick. I am really sorry that this man was Polish. In 1990, when old communist monuments were knocked down, his statue in Warsaw was virtually hanged by the head. Yet, I know Russians in the other forum who try to explain his motives, that the revolution needed victims, that the bolsheviks had to introduce terror in order to survive, that the Whites organized terror too etc etc Those attempts to justify are really exacerbating. And it`s not just one or two Russians, but more. E.g., his bust, which used to stand before Lubianka prison in Soviet times, has been recently rebuilt. By contemporary Russians!!! www.kommersant.com/gallery.asp?id=624627&pics_id=25170I just couldn`t believe it. How can Russians be so forgetful? They toppled the statue in 1991, that was a symbol of new times, the shackles came down at last! www.sptimes.ru/index.php?action_id=4&photo_id=877And today? Isn`t the reintroduction of Butcher`s bust a symbol of new times? The times when some people in Russia try to revive the Soviet past? What is your opinion? Are you one of those homo sovieticus Russians who see nothing wrong with Bloody Felix? |
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Post by constantine on Dec 24, 2006 4:35:41 GMT -7
Rokossovski was a representative of Stalin and as such he advocated and implemented the stalinist system of oppression in the army. Even Polish communists, Gomułka and others, didn`t want him in Poland. That`s why in 1956 he was taken back by his comrades to the Soviet Union where he truly belonged. A Soviet general in a Polish uniform. Disgusting. Well, Rokossovsky firstly was a brave and genius general. He was in "Crosses" prison in Leningrad before WWII and passed all circles of hell, like needles under the nails for example. We have no right to judge, course we did't live in this times and if would so, our actions were rather unforeseen. As for me, I am not a hero and I have a low limit of sensibility to pain and had I faced with such tortures, I would have tried to find out any ways to escape, and you?  |
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Post by constantine on Dec 24, 2006 5:34:09 GMT -7
Now, you brought up this Rokossovski. It came to my mind to ask you about your opinion on Feliks Dzherzhynski, Bloody Felix, a butcher of many Russians during the revolution and later, the creator of infamous Czeka secret police. What is your opinion? Are you one of those homo sovieticus Russians who see nothing wrong with Bloody Felix? As for me, I prefer strictly historical positions on this question. All this events as Revolutions 1917, Civil war 1918-1922 and White/Red Terror were long ago and so I have absolute right to see on them without rage or adoration simply with cold and clear mind. What is your attitude to French Revolution? It had such blood politics as Maximilien Robespierre, Danton or Marat, but I suppose you can not to deny its necessity and inevitability. All this persons was just tools in the hands of progress. Yes, you have all rights to call me homosoveticus, course I was born in Soviet Union and have some warm feeling toward it. |
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Pawian
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Post by Pawian on Dec 24, 2006 13:24:51 GMT -7
Well, Rokossovsky firstly was a brave and genius general. He was in "Crosses" prison in Leningrad before WWII and passed all circles of hell, like needles under the nails for example. We have no right to judge, course we did't live in this times and if would so, our actions were rather unforeseen.) And in the 50s, when making or signing the lists of officers to be imprisoned, he still kept the memory of those needles under fingernails? And that`s an excuse for everything? People can`t betray, imprison, kill, and excuse themselves that they still feel the pain under nails. Yes, find an escape in order to get out and then find the guy who ordered the torture hahahahahahaha. |
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Pawian
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Post by Pawian on Dec 24, 2006 13:41:58 GMT -7
As for me, I prefer strictly historical positions on this question. All this events as Revolutions 1917, Civil war 1918-1922 and White/Red Terror were long ago and so I have absolute right to see on them without rage or adoration simply with cold and clear mind. I don`t expect any anger or admiration from you on that matter. I simply expect a direct answer: do you approve or disapprove of the Czeka creator? Now, let`s suppose it is more personal. If you knew that some of your ancestors living at the time were killled by Czeka on Bloody Felix`s orders, what would you think about it? I am against revolutions which use terror because it is usually blind and brings more harm than good. I am for velvet revolutions. Vide: Solidarity revolution in Poland. It was peaceful and lasted long, but the result was a success too. As for the necessity of the French revolution, let`s not forget that its major consequence was the rise of Napoleon Bonaparte and the 20 years of bloody wars on the European continent, also in Russia. As a Russian, you should be more aware of the "necessity" of the French Revolution. hahahahaha So, we came to some admiration at last too hahahahaha. |
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Post by constantine on Dec 26, 2006 2:51:20 GMT -7
Yes, find an escape in order to get out and then find the guy who ordered the torture hahahahahahaha. Hem, this is a question of differences between Polish and Russian national characters! Further, it's a tipical Polish trait, to swoop downand to fell there foes from the shoulder (as in Russian "to fell foes in cabbage"). As to Rokossovsky, when his jailer wrote to him an ingratiating letter after victory in WWII with his congratulations, he answered to him as "Rad starat'sya grazhdanin nachal'nik" (it's rather difficult to translate on English tragedy-comic sarcasm of this phrase but I'll try - "Very glad to serve you sir!"). So, this was an answer of powerful marshal to his former torturer. |
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Post by constantine on Dec 26, 2006 3:12:59 GMT -7
I don`t expect any anger or admiration from you on that matter. I simply expect a direct answer: do you approve or disapprove of the Czeka creator? Now, let`s suppose it is more personal. If you knew that some of your ancestors living at the time were killled by Czeka on Bloody Felix`s orders, what would you think about it? Moreover, my grand-grand-grandfather, who was one of Leo Tolstoy's disciple and a writer, was killed in 1920 by his neighbours in his village. This was a civil and fratricidal war. And I have no right to judge somebody in time when I excuse another side. And I think that this page was tuned over when we buried our last tsar Nicolas II in 1996. |
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Post by bujno on Dec 26, 2006 3:56:05 GMT -7
Kostia, I am intererested on your views on the czeka creator, too. Do you approve or dispprove his input into Russian history. Is he worth having monuments in Russian capital or is he not. Please excuse those difrect questions, but on the other hand I am sure you will understand  |
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Post by Pawian on Dec 26, 2006 6:26:30 GMT -7
Constantine, Bujno
There is one and only one thing which irritates me about Russians today. It is their peculiar amnesia concerning the recent past.
I can understand that most Russians cherish warm memories of the Soviet Union. Life was simpler then, the state provided everything, they didn`t have to worry about basic things like work, food, housing. Tickets and transport were cheap, etc etc. And nobody cared that they had to keep their mouths shut or otherwise they would be locked up in a mental hospital as dissidents. People had got to know how to adapt to the system in order to live quiet peaceful lives.
I can understand that Russians remember the USSR because they have lost this peace and quiet. They are disappointed with modern democracy today because they have to take care of and dependd on themselves. But somehow they can`t because communism destroyed their society to such an extent that it will take generations to rebuild some basic social and economic relations.
However, I will never understand why some Russians honour the murderers and hangmen from the past. Lenin, Stalin, Dzerzhynski.
I can`t imagine Poles erecting monuments to Gomułka or Bierut, those communist leaders who ordered to shoot at their Polish subjects.
What`s wrong with Russian memory? Or have Russian minds been perverted so much by oppression that today they defend and honour their oppressors?
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Pawian
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Post by Pawian on Dec 26, 2006 6:39:26 GMT -7
Moreover, my grand-grand-grandfather, who was one of Leo Tolstoy's disciple and a writer, was killed in 1920 by his neighbours in his village. This was a civil and fratricidal war. There is a difference between a single emotional outburst of hatred which results in death of some individuals in one place and the system of mass repression which is organised by the state and afflicts many places all over the country. It seems the page hasn`t been turned over. The new monuments to Dzherzhinsky or Stalin suggest something else. That the historical memory is still shaky in Russia. mosnews.com/files/8222/stalin.jpg |
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Post by Pawian on Dec 26, 2006 6:52:29 GMT -7
As to Rokossovsky, when his jailer wrote to him an ingratiating letter after victory in WWII with his congratulations, he answered to him as "Rad starat'sya grazhdanin nachal'nik" (it's rather difficult to translate on English tragedy-comic sarcasm of this phrase but I'll try - "Very glad to serve you sir!"). So, this was an answer of powerful marshal to his former torturer. This answer by Rokosovski is very meaningful. In some way it explains the Russian attitude towards their oppressors. The marshall seemed to say he didn`t bear any grudge against the man who had jailed and even ordered torture on him. I understand it that in marshall`s opinion it wasn`t the man who was guilty but the system itself and the need of times. The prison director was only an element of the system, he had to behave like he did. Rokosovsky accepted it and forgave the man his nasty role. Is it a correct thinking? |
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Post by constantine on Dec 26, 2006 7:59:30 GMT -7
Kostia, I am intererested on your views on the czeka creator, too. Do you approve or dispprove his input into Russian history. Is he worth having monuments in Russian capital or is he not. Please excuse those difrect questions, but on the other hand I am sure you will understand World is not painted only in two colors, white and black, at least may be many points of view on this aspect of Russian History. I think that Russian ruling class before 1917 missed Russia by dancing on the balls and was punished for this by the Revolution! Yes, it was fierce and ruthless Revolution, but both sides were fierce and ruthless. As for monuments, hem.... I feel only disappointment when this silent witnesses of history are destroied by the raged mobe! I can say that Lubyanskaya sq. with statue of Iron Felix looked much tremendous. |
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