bujno
Cosmopolitan
Posts: 648
|
Post by bujno on Sept 5, 2006 12:55:22 GMT -7
Thank you for your posting. Bescheid means 'an anwer' am I right? So my Bescheid to bescheid will be a following citation. To Joy Joy, thou beauteous godly lighting, Daughter of Elysium, Fire drunken we are ent'ring Heavenly, thy holy home! Thy enchantments bind together, What did custom stern divide; Every man becomes a brother, Where thy gentle wings abide. An die Freude Freude, schöner Götterfunken, Tochter aus Elysium, Wir betreten feuertrunken Himmlische, dein Heiligtum. Deine Zauber binden wieder, Was die Mode streng geteilt; Alle Menschen werden Brüder, Wo dein sanfter Flügel weilt. Do Radoœci O radoœci iskro bogów kwiecie elizejskich pól, œwiêta, na twym œwiêtym progu staje nasz natchniony chór Jasnoœæ twoja wszystko zaæmi, z³¹czy, co rozdzieli³ los, wszyscy ludzie bêd¹ braæmi tam, gdzie twój przemówi g³os. Text: Friedrich Schiller, 1785 Music: Ludwig van Beethoven, 1823 pobocza.pl/pob13/oda.mp3
|
|
|
Post by bescheid on Sept 5, 2006 13:52:01 GMT -7
bujno
I was laughing for just a moment, not at you! But at the irony of our lives...
You know of {Johann von Schiller} and of course you would, and that of {An Die Freude}Ode to Joy. How so fitting, and of course, very well, for in as such, you have also added a Rossetta Stone of language. The tri-of English/German and Polish, bless you for this....
Also, you would have know of the Schiller writings of {Sturm und Drang} Storm and Stress. More of the 30 years war.
Thank you though of the: Demetrius by his name {Schiller}, a tribute of all times old and new with the present. For it bespeaks of us today as in the past.
bujno, you are a man of the present, with the wisdom of the past, and the vison of the future. For to never change.....
{And yes, my presented name means of that, answer.} for in actual fact, my full entention was to irradicate my post entirely as being a possible weakness upon my part, but, as events have proven so, your self and that of Leslie have proven rather more swift.
Charles
|
|
|
Post by bescheid on Sept 5, 2006 14:00:55 GMT -7
Charles Thank you for all the things you said in your last posting and the way you laid open your heart and mind to us publicly. I found your account VERY interesting with your experiences in so many different avenues (and even back lanes) of life. I think we are fortunate to have you on the forum - it is the Russian forum's loss. But for heaven's sake, don't start going nice on me - I would miss the mental kicks in the pants you give me, making me think up a telling response!! Leslie Leslie You are the spice of our lives, yours is the legacy of time, for it is of you, to explain to our futures, of that what we were. For you are timeless. Now what of that bumb of Bomber Harris? Charles
|
|
|
Post by pieter on Sept 5, 2006 14:12:26 GMT -7
About the bumb Bomber Harris; Sir Arthur 'Bomber' Harris (1892 - 1984) One of the most controversial figures of World War Two, Harris was in charge of the massive Allied air campaign against Nazi Germany from 1942 to 1945. His technique of 'saturation' or 'area' bombing of German cities, causing countless civilian losses and enormous destruction, has been a matter of contention ever since. Harris was educated in English public schools, then settled in Rhodesia. During World War I, he served in southern Africa before returning to England and joining the Royal Flying Corps. His experiences as a pilot on the Western Front shaped his opinion of air bombing as preferable to the mass slaughter of the trenches. In 1918, Harris became a squadron leader in the newly formed RAF, and during the following two decades, he served in a number of locations around the British Empire. In early 1942, he took over as Commander-in-Chief of Bomber Command and was promoted to Air Marshal. At the time, the Allied bombing campaign was in disarray, and Harris set out to implement a new and more efficient strategy. Using incendiary bombs, the allied planes targeted cities such as Cologne in 'thousand bomber' raids. In February 1945, the obliteration of the historic city of Dresden from the air became one of the most controversial episodes of the allied war effort. The raid was supported by Churchill, but the British prime minister had second thoughts afterwards, and a few weeks later, the Allies halted area bombing. Harris commanded respect from his subordinates and enormous loyalty from his crews. But the debate about the morality - and indeed efficacy - of the bombing raids was already under way in the closing stages of the war, and to Harris' disappointment, his request for a special campaign medal for the Bomber Command was refused. In 1946, he retired from the RAF and embarked on a successful business career in South Africa, but later returned to Britain where he was made a baronet. In 1992, eight years after his death, a monument was erected in central London, stirring up the debate about 'Bomber' Harris and his role in the war effort. www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/2WWdresden.htmwww.jungle-world.com/seiten/2003/03/102.phpwww.national-zeitung.de/Artikel_03/NZ04_1.html
|
|
|
Post by bescheid on Sept 5, 2006 14:32:05 GMT -7
Bujno As my dial up connection is rather very slow, but, steady. I was able to run up the url that you provided of {pobocza.pl/pob13/oda.mp3} It did come up with that of Ludiwig van Beethovon. Yes, that was a wonderful compisition of his. In passing as to my thanks: I would like to add with an actual wording this great man left with the known world of his secret of inspiration: {{"I carry my thoughts about with me for a long time... before writing them down... once I have grasped a theme. I shall not forget it even years later. I change many things, discard others, and try again and again until I am satisfied; then, in my head... [the work] rises, it grows, I hear and see the image n front of me from every angle... and only the labor of writing it down remains... I turn my ideas into tones that resound, roar, and rage until at last they stand before me in the form of notes." }} www.essentialsofmusic.com/composer/beethoven.htmlIs not the internet such a wonderful tool of education? Nothing is impossible in as much to information, it would so seem. It is such a shame, this was not invented say, 300 yrs in past.. Charles
|
|
|
Post by bescheid on Sept 5, 2006 15:29:39 GMT -7
pieter
I was still within the confines of my mind with Ludwig van Beethoven and then across that of your post....What a shock that you were so swift with Bomber Harris! The Englander: Sir Arthur Harris. I was not aware of his past as being in Rhodesia and then South Africa until this moment.
Thank you for the provision of those url indicators, I did read through the three of them with great interest. All three were straight forward and factual. I think perhaps the last being that of: Die Schuldigen an Bomben-Krieg {The Guilty ones at the Bombardment} was the very telling of the trio.
{What you reap, ye shall sow} and to all ends.
A lesson of war is not actually a lesson. It is only for the moment of elation of that of the victors as to the true lesson of destruction. The smells and the loss, all for nothing in the end.
But, once war is forgotten by the victors, it is begun once more in very hard ernest. And on and on it goes. For those of the previous war, are dead with only the smell to remind the new people that of war, there are few winners, and many losers, and in the end, no winners. For what was to be gained, was already lost.
I think perhaps the best of words were of those as spoken by the Britisher: Deputy Airmarshall of Bomber Command:
AS spoken:
{{That the bombing of Dresden was a great tragedy none can deny. It is not so much this or the other means of making war that is immoral or in-humane.
What is immoral is war itself. Once full scale war has broken out ti can never be humanized or civilized, and if one side attempted to do so, it would be defeated. That to me is Dresden.}}
The above was his words to end.
It is true of the Frauenkirche, it has a gift of the British people as being a golden cross displayed on top. A gift from both the British People and the Queen of England.
Dresden was a city and as such, still a city. It was also a symbol of never again on such a scale of destruction, but, this was ignored with the cities of Japan with the use of the Atomic weapons.
Today in the present. What lessons have been remembered? What lessons have been forgotten? Only to those as individuals, will know.
For time and events will go on, and as such, the mistakes of inhumanity will also prevail, for those committing these inhumane mistakes will never fully realize the mistakes of the past, for they have never known.
Charles
|
|
|
Post by leslie on Sept 6, 2006 2:15:53 GMT -7
Charles you write
Charles It may be the pessimistic nature of my thoughts at times (but in reality I am going through the happiest and most optimistic time of my recent life at the present) but I do not think the human race will ever learn. In many ways Dresden was a horrible mistake, but in the heat of a war could we be blamed for reprisals for the flattening of many of our cities (just as Hitler made such reprisals for our bombing of Berlin). The question really is 'Why the hell do we have such "inhumane" events such as war?'. It simply shows we are really little better than our caveman ancestors. Further WWII evidence - Hiroshima and Nagasaki! The evidence for continuance? Look at the way the Jews have just recently flattened civilian towns and killed countless civilians! But who was really to blame - the Jews for doing this because they suspected the presence of the terrorists, or the terrorists for shamelessly (if this is so) using civilians as their war shields? How much damage to the physical entity of Iraq by the Coalition invading forces and how much has been done since then by the warring sectarian fractions? And of course all the other 'little' wars that have continuously occurred all over the planet following the second war to end all wars?!
We have changed in no way, because I am sure we would do it all over again.
Leslie
|
|
|
Post by pieter on Sept 6, 2006 3:17:55 GMT -7
Dear Bescheid,
Differant sides
I tried to be as objective as I could in describing Dresden, and used therefor two English language websites (BBC and Spartacus), and two German ones, the Jungle World is a Leftwing German source and the National-zeitung actually a far right newspaper (affiliated with the Nationalen Widerstand movement of NDP and DVU). For my person I went very far in trying to reach an objective view, from BBC to NDP. Personally I find the German far right far from objective, because they only talk about the "Allierten Kriegsverbrechern", and are extremely hostile against America (Anti-American), which they see as a "Multi-Kulturellen" hell, and so un-Germanistic. In the same time they keep silent about the Holocaust, or are in the camp of Holocaust deniers, whixh they put into their own subjective perspective. They are part of a revisionist movement of historians like John Cawdell Irving (born March 24, 1938) a British Holocaust denier and author of several books about the military history of World War II. The fact is that in Germany there is really an objective debate about the "wrongdoings" on both sides, the differance with the past (second half of the 20th century) is that the discussion goes about both sides now, while in the past the debates was about only the Nazi guilt and terror. When I read that they (the allied Airforce command) deliberatly wanted to create fire storms that would cost thousands of lives, in the last part of the war (it had no strategic logic or reason) than I find it morally doubtable, and militairily unlogical. There was no industry in Dresden, no important function in the German war machine. It was only the destruction of cultural heritage, civilians and an act of revenge. And at that time it got a broader support than it would have had nowadays, because the hatred of the Jerries was general under non-German Continental Europeans, British and Americans. The eye on eye, tooth on tooth thought dominated. The more I read about the war (I like to read a lot about it, historical novels like the one of Norman Davies 'Rising '44', in which I am half ways now). We have to remember that was in februari 1945, and that the Russians were comming West-wards, Dresden had 200.000 refugees from the East, next to it's own population. Ordinairy Germans and Non-Germans (Slave labourers) alike were sufering alike from Hitlers madness, and the terror regime of fanatical SS-men, Gestapo and SD (SS-Police), Germans were killed on large scale too, just because they did not believe in the war anymore, and refused to fight for a lost cause. While they were tortured by their "own" regime, the Germans were also bombed by the allied and brutalised by the comming Russian army, who murdered and raped Germans in a large scale. In that last case the Nazi-propaganda for once was true, and thousands of terrified Germans, civilians and ordianairy Wehrmacht leute tried to escape the Ost regions. And in the same time the fanatical parts of the Nazi machinery fought until the bitter end with the Russians and Americans, and they kept the labour camps and Konzentrations lagers running until they were taken over by the Americans or Russians. Only liberation by the Americans in the West or Russians in the East freed the prisoners. For many people the rescue came to late, they died of hunger, abuse or could'nt stand the food they suddenly got. Their bodies were not able to process the food.
German suffering under the Nazi's
Today we can see historically, that people from all sides suffered from that war. The first victims of the Nazi's had been Germans, in the street terror of the SA in the twenties and early thirtees. Decent Germans were brutalized, beaten, tortured and killed. And it did not matter if you were a Conservative Prussian, traditional catholic Bavarian, Social-democrat, German liberal, an anarchist artist or even Communist, if you opposed the Nazi party or had differant (decent, civilian) views you could be their target, even when they were not in power yet (1929-1933). Later the SA terror was replaced by the superior and efficient and very good organised SS-terror state of the NSDAP, and the final battle of 1944/45 created such hellish brutal powers, that the Populations in the east and West got crushed between mighty Powers. For instance the Sovjet-Nazi battles in the east (with thousands of tanks and artillery) were the biggest battles ever, not beaten afterwards (by Korea, Vietnam, Afghanistan, Chechenia or Iraq). In the North of the Netherlands, people who were stil in occupied territory were starved to death in the terrible cold winter of 1944/1945, in Poland Warsaw ceased to exsist and many Poles were in German slave labour in Germany or in the camps, where they shared the fate of so many other unlucky human beings. Thousands of Dutch men, women and Children died in that hunger winter. In cities like Rotterdam, Den Haag and Amsterdam, skelletons were walking down the streets. My father who came from a Bourgeois family, remembered that whole day the bell was ringing, because dying people were trying to get food in the richer neigbourhoods. People ate rats, cats, pets, dead horses on the streets and etc. The rest was transported Westwards to Germany. The Germans dismantled Dutch industry and brought Dutch food to Germany. For many older Dutch people a very emotional moment was the time that the allied food droppings came, when they got white Scandianvian bread and other stuff. Rotterdam must have been a real hell on earth, because it ws bombed and there was nothing left, but emptyness and rubble. Conclusion
My conclusion afterwards, as someone from a new generation is that Revenge never brings consolidation, does not ease your own losses or suffering. When you have read, seen, and thought a lot about that war, you can see that there ws only human suffering, and that actually nobody won. Germans, Jews, Poles, Russians, Englander, Amerikaner, Fransöser, Niederländer, Ukrainians, Czech, Yugoslavians, Italians, Greeks, Hungarians, all of them had great losses. 50 million people. I stil have to go a few hundred pages, but I want to say again, Norman Davies is a good historian, who shows things from differant perspectives (Polish, British, German and Russian sides). His book is about another city, but you could look at Dresden with a simular view. The Madness of war, and the incredible losses of life. Innocent human beings.
Pieter
P.S.- This seems to be more a subject for the history department
|
|
|
Post by pieter on Sept 6, 2006 3:46:55 GMT -7
Dresden
Dresden was not the only German city devastated by World War II bombing, but the British bombing of Dresden in 1945, ordered by Winston Churchill, has become one of the most controversial events of that war. It was area bombed on the early hours of Valentine's Day, 13-14 February 1945. The Altstadt ("old town") side of the Elbe River full of its historical cultural treasures was the most damaged, and left smoldering. Because the raging fires stopped at the river, the newer Neustadt ("new town") became the older side of modern-day Dresden sustaining less damage. In hindsight, it is clear that the end of the war was approaching. At the time, however, Allied forces had only recently regrouped from a German counteroffensive. The city was not particularly well defended, because as a cultural centre with relatively little industry, it was not regarded to be important strategically. Early in the war it had been considered too distant for the Allied bombers to reach in safety, but even when it had been bombed the majority of Dresden's anti-aircraft defences were redeployed elsewhere in Germany. Dresden's reputation for culture is better known than its highly developed optics industry (Carl Zeiss later Praktica), which produced precision aiming devices during the war. In addition many peacetime factories, such as the cigarette factories, had been converted to ammunition factories as part of the policy of "total war". These factories employed mainly local workers but also used Jewish slave labour. Some 300 Jews were kept slave labourers at a camp in Dresden, of these the majority were killed before the war ended, along with almost all of the 6,000 Jews who lived in Dresden before the war (a famous survivor was Dresden native and writer Victor Klemperer). However these targets were not the main reason for the city being bombed. The Red Army was approaching from the East and Dresden was one of two key rail routes with marshalling yards. Although key industrial facilities were destroyed by the bombing (much of their capacity was quickly restored), the main goal of the "area bombing" was to create a firestorm (Feuersturm), a technique refined by Britain's Royal Air Force. Civilian death estimates vary wildly, largely as a result of propaganda figures which received widespread publicity at the time. However the most recently available evidence from Friedrich Reichart of Dresden City Museum points to 25,000 deaths, which is less than the number that died in Hamburg, but Dresden was a smaller city. Numbers between 25,000 — 140,000 have been used in official statistics, with the Communist authorities of Dresden increasing their estimates across time; estimates in Nazi Germany by the Ministry of Propaganda varied between 350,000 and 400,000. At that time, Dresden's population was 600,000, but up to 200,000 refugees were living in cramped apartments and passing through Dresden as the Russians were now only fifty miles away. The entire inner city (15 square kilometres) was utterly devastated, and other quarters were damaged to some degree, the many villa quarters, however, on average much less than others. Many of the higher estimates are based on a fake TB47 report (which has been visibly altered by the simple expedient of adding a zero to the end of the totals). However the West German Federal Archive in Koblenz discovered a genuine copy of TB47. The official "Final Report and Situation (TB47)" produced by Reich Commander of the Order Police a month after the bombings. "TB47" is probably a reasonable guide to the order of casualty numbers. It states definite figures of between 18,000 and 22,000 with estimates of final numbers of 25,000 and includes the interesting sentence "Since rumours far exceed the reality, open use can be made of the actual figures." While some think that the bombing of Dresden was a tragic occurrence that Nazi Germany brought upon itself, others feel it should be treated as a war crime. Others see it as a necessary military action taken to support the advancing Red Army; Dresden was 22nd on the RAF's list of top 100 military/industrial targets and had a rail network which had been virtually untouched up to that point in the war. Fortunately, much of the city's beauty has been restored, thanks to the zeal of the populace in recreating the architecture of old Dresden. Today Dresden has a strong partnership with the English city of Coventry, which was heavily damaged by German air attacks. The camaraderie is deeply supported by the populace in both cities.
|
|
|
Post by bescheid on Sept 6, 2006 8:44:16 GMT -7
Leslie Amazing is it not, the topic subject of cooking and through evolution of conversation, now into the war after what, 61 years It would be my personal feelings that a very important part of you is needed in our world of today, that is compassion and a strong sense of reality with practiced morality. You have the experience of time, judgment and experience coupled with knowledge. It is very childish I realize this, but, if it were possible, there needs to be a vastly more of Leslies on this earth sprinkled through out the many governments to keep the leaderships in line. And as you have very wisely mentioned. Lessons are not lessons learned, but, only a plan that went bad. Until the next time. One of many wonderful things that make up what we are. We as people, possess within our selves such enormous intrinsic capacity of building, creating, inventing and making our world a better world. We over come most all events that nature puts in our way, and then invent machines to multiply the efforts of our work. But, the one thing that is our down fall, our capacity to employ the methods and means to destroy our selves. For this, it would seem we as people have very little defense against. For the individual, I would only surmise as a personal matter. To nurture and maintain a very strong will to survive no matter the odds. To over come fear, face it and learn to understand what it is. Then insure that the object of fear will be overturned and recreated into an asset to better your life by. At the moment, this is the best I have to offer Leslie, for my mind is simply turning down. Sorry. Charles
|
|
piwo
Citizen of the World
Co Słychać?
Posts: 1,189
|
Post by piwo on Sept 6, 2006 8:44:17 GMT -7
Not sure what any of this has to do with cooking this weekend, but it's been enlightening...
|
|
|
Post by kaima on Sept 6, 2006 9:08:30 GMT -7
DresdenToday Dresden has a strong partnership with the English city of Coventry, which was heavily damaged by German air attacks. [. [/b][/quote] I have always read of Coventry as a footnote to the Dresden story. Since you are dragging out these old dogs, how about the story of Coventry? I pretty well quit on military history 20+ years ago due to overload & endless repetition & got into history of society. However, if you have a story of Coventry, it would be interesting to hear what was done to this city to make it a consistent footnote. How did weekend cooking get onto cooking civilians in wartime? I realize military, given a weapon like untested bombers, has to figure out what can be done with them, and then they will be used with a vengeance. Justification always comes after the fact. Kai
|
|
|
Post by bescheid on Sept 6, 2006 9:19:07 GMT -7
pieter You are most an amazing person with your correct prospective and assessment of a given subject. With this subject, you have excelled with excellance. Thank you for being objective and accurate Only to add just a bit before retiring to a quite side of our residence,and also as you have rightly introduced, this was orignally a cooking topic. Amazing, is it not, the manner of change of topic withen the topic. More or less as Nancy some time previous has introduced: more or less like of herding cats..... I think perhaps it is lesson lost, lives lost, property and people destroyed, and for what gain? It was a war begun for the wrong reasons, the wrong manner of prosicution and fought for the wrong objectives. The entire war was immoral as a total war that it was. A total destruction. And it was this time, fought by a Christian nation against other Christian nations. This in self is a telling example of the dangers inherant withen our selves. This should have been a living example of never again. But, the lesson was lost at the ending of the war and the beginning of what should have been a new day, a new life. We remember the past and lessons of experience, but, we have learnt nothing. New wars are a constant, and at present, a new war is not recognized for what it is. The popular voice of our medias have labeled it {terrorist} but, that is only a term label for a new type of war with a new objective. It is a war against civilization. This new type of war has different weapons of which our leaderships and militarys are confused and uncertain as the manner of countering this type of warfare. This is our danger. We have remembered every thing from the past, but, we have learnt nothing new. Charles
|
|
|
Post by pieter on Sept 6, 2006 12:20:18 GMT -7
pieter You are most an amazing person with your correct prospective and assessment of a given subject. With this subject, you have excelled with excellance. Thank you for being objective and accurate Only to add just a bit before retiring to a quite side of our residence,and also as you have rightly introduced, this was orignally a cooking topic. Amazing, is it not, the manner of change of topic withen the topic. More or less as Nancy some time previous has introduced: more or less like of herding cats..... I think perhaps it is lesson lost, lives lost, property and people destroyed, and for what gain? It was a war begun for the wrong reasons, the wrong manner of prosicution and fought for the wrong objectives. The entire war was immoral as a total war that it was. A total destruction. And it was this time, fought by a Christian nation against other Christian nations. This in self is a telling example of the dangers inherant withen our selves. This should have been a living example of never again. But, the lesson was lost at the ending of the war and the beginning of what should have been a new day, a new life. We remember the past and lessons of experience, but, we have learnt nothing. New wars are a constant, and at present, a new war is not recognized for what it is. The popular voice of our medias have labeled it {terrorist} but, that is only a term label for a new type of war with a new objective. It is a war against civilization. This new type of war has different weapons of which our leaderships and militarys are confused and uncertain as the manner of countering this type of warfare. This is our danger. We have remembered every thing from the past, but, we have learnt nothing new. Charles Charles, Thank you for your reply, and yes we have learned nothing form that dreadful war of 1939-1945. Korea, Vietnam, Biafra (Nigeria), Cambodja, Afghanistan (Russian occupation), the Rumanian massacre (1989), Lithuania (1991), Chechenia, Former Yugoslavia (Slovenia, Croatia, Bosnia-Herzegovina; Srebrenica [Dutchbat]), Ruanda and Sudan (Dafur). Yesterday night I saw a fascinating interview of German journalists with the German pope. And he said that the Germans had changed to the positive, that they were not only seen as Grundlich, Pünktlich und Nett, aber also as tolerant, relaxed and (new) selfaware people. Germany and Germans are seen as positive and optimistic by many other nationalities in the world. My South-African brother in Law was in Stuttgart during the World Championship, and he was that positive about Germany that he said he think he could live there. A good organised, clean, healthy and optimistic country. The old negative images and cliché's about Germany are slowly fading away. Although some temsions (not caused by the German government) the relationship between Germany and Poland are good. Germany is closely linked with it's former arch-rival France, the Berlin-London ties are good (Merkel is British oriented), Merkel restored good bilateral relations between Berlin and Washington. Dutch-German relations are good too. Berlin is popular under Dutch artists, musicians, writers, journalists and students (including me). And important for European stability, Germany cooperates with Russia in staid of fighting it (diplomatically). German-Israeli relations are historically good since Adenauer-Gurion established strong ties. Sovjet jews immigrate to Germany in staid of the traditional destinations USA or Israel. Germany is a possitive force in Europe and the World. There is a new German selfawareness, and the Germans are proud of their democratic republik and the economical, technical, political and cultural achievements of it of the last 60 years. And they have every right to do so. Even my old father has burried the past and said last time I was at my parents place, the war lies behind us, I don't hate Germany, the new Germans are OK. He likes to watch German krimi's and loves German cultural programs at the ARD or ARTE (German-French cultural chanal). Germany is a pan-European state with influences of the former occupation powers, American, British, French and Russian. You have all kind of German sub cultures, which are liked by the original German populations. The Turkish-German subculture, The Greek-German, Italian-German, Polish-German, Russian-German and other German subcultures made a new sort of Multi-cultural Germany, which is stil very German, because the German element dominates (an it should be). Like America Germany managed to integrate minorities in it's own Bundes culture, than for instance France, Britain or Holland, who have segregated societies, and tensions beteen the original populations and the newcommers. Germans know what it means to be labeled after the Second World war, and that is why they don't like extremism, racism and xenophobia. They know what the result of such a policy is. Most Germans don't like Nazism (fascism), Communism (Marxism-Leninism) and Fundamentalism. The Germans of today are freedom loving, democrats and pragmatists. Although many of them are sceptical about their politics, they don't want another system, and they are proud of their country and democratic constitution. We are slowly getting over our past and looking towards a new Europe! Pieter
|
|
|
Post by pieter on Sept 6, 2006 12:23:06 GMT -7
Not sure what any of this has to do with cooking this weekend, but it's been enlightening... Piwo, This has nothing to do with cooking, excuse me! There was one sentance that took my attention, and I reacted at that. Back to bon cuisine! Pieter
|
|