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Post by Jaga on Jan 30, 2013 23:56:22 GMT -7
Below are two maps of railways network in Poland: 1988 and 2009. What did happen? Another question - what is a red line going through Poland and why the railway network was much more dense on the West from the red line?  |
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Post by Eric on Jan 31, 2013 9:31:59 GMT -7
Are these very accurate maps? What's the source?
As for the declining railroads between 1988 and 2009, the reason is probably because of the increase in automobile traffic. In the socialist days, far fewer people owned cars, so they had to depend on public transportation to move around the country. Today, cars are ubiquitous, and so people would rather travel on the highways than on railroads.
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Post by kaima on Jan 31, 2013 11:01:51 GMT -7
My Guesses:
*** What did happen? ***
All of the old network was built up since the 1800 railroad development time, and the Communist system subsidized all to keep them in place or operating. The subsidy died after the fall of communism and railroads were closed or abandoned.
**** Another question - what is a red line going through Poland and why the railway network was much more dense on the West from the red line? ****
The red line reflects the old division between the parts of divided Poland - Prussian (German) occupied, Russian and Austrian. Each had its own policies of development which are reflected in the density of the rail networks.
A bit off the topic is the use of these railroads during WW I. In all of the histories I read, the Austrians are constantly complaining that they were hampered constantly by the limited railroad capacity, while the Russians are bad mouthed in a very typical Western History fashi0o - and the Russians are given NO credit for taking the conquered Austrian railroads (in Poland) and using them to tremendous advantage for their own efforts. Here the Austrians say the capacity was totally inadequate and the reason for their defeats, while the Russians moved in, and even with the difference in Railroad gauge of the tracks, which precluded use of Russian rolling stock on Austrian tracks, did a magnificent job of mobilizing and supplying their troops, over far greater distances, than the Austrians were capable of. Our western histories are quite warped in presentation and analysis.
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Post by Jaga on Jan 31, 2013 11:42:41 GMT -7
Eric, this map is a hit on the facebook, but it was also commented in a main Polish newspaper, Gazeta Wyborcza. Ron is right, that this map show a division between the rail density which originated from times before WW I when Poland was divided between Russia, Austria and Prussia. The rail density in Prussian part is much denser due to high population, industry needs and the fact that Prussian empire was actually investing more than other countries in their rail-road system. So, the comment in Polish media is that the decrease in railroad density, which reflects changing habits, less people using trains as main transportation, made Poland more equal and eliminated differences which still existed from the partitions times.Eric, you may not be aware, but lots of resentment of Poles towards Russia comes also from the times of partitions. Poles in Russian part (which included Warsaw) were depraved of political rights, the economy was also suffering. The general opinion about Polish partition is the following: - Russian partition (which included Warsaw, central and Eastern Poland): economy bad, no political rights
- Prussian partition (Silesia, Poznan, West Poland) - economy good, no political rights
- Austrian partition (Krakow, South and SouthEast) - economy bad, some authonomy
So, unfortunately, the worst fate was for Poles under Russian rule. Poles tried to change it, there were two uprisings in XIX century, both unsuccessful. Many Polish partiots were sent to Siberia, some of them contributed to the development of science in Russia  |
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Post by Eric on Jan 31, 2013 12:20:15 GMT -7
One of the reasons why Russia is not hated as much in Lithuania as in the other Baltic republics is because the USSR made Vilnius the capital of Lithuania. Before that, it was Polish territory. |
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Post by Jaga on Jan 31, 2013 17:58:00 GMT -7
Eric, Soviets made Vilnius a capital of Lithuania.... that became a part of a Soviet Union. So this is like letting a homeless to live in your basement and then baricade the basement and not let him out. I think, Baltic republics were the first to leave Soviet Union. |
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Post by kaima on Feb 1, 2013 3:50:49 GMT -7
One of the reasons why Russia is not hated as much in Lithuania as in the other Baltic republics is because the USSR made Vilnius the capital of Lithuania. Before that, it was Polish territory. I don't think any Lithuanian would put it so simply. Certainly at the time of independence in 1918 the majority of the city population was Polish, but the surrounding countryside was definitely Lithuanian. Getting deeper into the topic would take much more of an exposition, and research as well. |
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Post by Eric on Feb 1, 2013 11:09:49 GMT -7
I doubt you would find any Lithuanian who would be willing to "repatriate" Vilnius to Poland. |
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Post by kaima on Feb 1, 2013 11:57:17 GMT -7
I doubt you would find any Lithuanian who would be willing to "repatriate" Vilnius to Poland. This is part of the morass of getting into the history of the region. Today we talk of "Russian occupied Poland", as we are in this thread, but Vilnius was not necessarily EVER a Polish city. It had a MAJORITY of Polish citizens, but was, I believe, on traditional Lithuanian territory. For many hundreds of years the Lithuanian-Polish (Note the reversal of positions in the title) Commonwealth had a great mixture of the peoples, with Lithuanians trying to maintain their equality with the numerically and culturally dominant Polish. The Commonwealth died with the "Partition of Poland" and Lithuania, Vilnius, and eastern Poland became Russian. While we talk of the "Occupation of Poland", it was a conquest of the whole Commonwealth and the death of Lithuania and Poland. they only rose again as nations again in 1918. You can continue taking pot shots at the individual facts or events, but you are not addressing the relationships of the peoples - Lithuanian, Polish and Russian. |
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Post by Eric on Feb 1, 2013 14:29:47 GMT -7
Before 1940, Vilnius was, in fact, Polish territory, not Lithuanian. The city itself, however, has transferred back and forth between the two for quite some time.
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Post by Jaga on Feb 1, 2013 15:13:01 GMT -7
Eric, you are forgetting that Poland and Lithuania had a kingdom. Both countries, Poland and Lithuania had EQUAL RIGHTS. It was not like with Russia and Soviet Union that other countries were just depraved of their rights and incorporated in Soviet Union or Russia although they did not want it.Here is the information about Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish%E2%80%93Lithuanian_CommonwealthThe Polish–Lithuanian Commonwealth (or Union, after 1791 the Commonwealth of Poland) was a dualistic state of Poland and Lithuania ruled by a common monarch. It was one of the largest[3][4] and one of the most populous countries of 16th- and 17th-century Europe, with some 1,000,000 square kilometres (390,000 sq mi)[5] and a multi-ethnic population of 11 million at its peak in the early 17th century.[6] It was established at the Union of Lublin in July 1569 and disappeared as an independent state after the Third Partition of Poland in 1795 see the map here: upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2e/Polish-Lithuanian_Commonwealth_(1619).png |
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Post by kaima on Feb 1, 2013 22:56:30 GMT -7
Before 1940, Vilnius was, in fact, Polish territory, not Lithuanian. The city itself, however, has transferred back and forth between the two for quite some time. No. Vilnius was Polish from 1918 to 1940. To state it as you did is entirely misleading. From about 1772 to 1918 you can easily say Vilnius was a Russian city. For who possessed it prior to that, you all can read the histories that Jaga posted reference to. |
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Post by Jaga on Feb 3, 2013 15:52:31 GMT -7
+++One of the reasons why Russia is not hated as much in Lithuania as in the other Baltic republics is because the USSR made Vilnius the capital of Lithuania. Before that, it was Polish territory.++++
Russians were not hated in Lithuania that much because only 10% of Lithuanian population were Russians after the break of SU. In comparison, in Latvia and Estonia 30% of population were Russians.
You argue that (A) somehow Russians gave Vilnius to Lithuania (which was an act of kindness), but you forget or do not want to remember that (B) IN THE SAME TIME SOVIET UNION INVADED LITHUANIA and depraved Lithuania of a statehood... This is an ugly part of the story! So, by incorporating Vilnius into Lithuanian Soviet Republic Soviets got strategic point and depraved Poland of an asset.....
You cannot forget B if you say A.... I mean who cares whether Vilnius is Polish or Soviet if Lithuania is depraved of existence as a country?
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