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Post by JustJohn or JJ on Feb 24, 2013 7:12:46 GMT -7
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Post by Nictoshek on Feb 24, 2013 8:37:26 GMT -7
Whose side where they on back then ?   |
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Post by pieter on Feb 24, 2013 11:41:37 GMT -7
John, I know Afghan people in Arnhem, who moved to the Netherlands, because their daughters could'nt study there. The Afghan civil war between mehudjadheen after the collapse of the Communist regime destroyed the country. What wasn't already destroyed by the brutal Sovjet-Afghan war was destroyed by the Jihadist war lords themselves. And thos Jihadists were before the Taliban and had nothing to do with Al Alqaida either. The Afhans fear now the withdrowal of the American troops and their allies and that the Taliban might return. These helmets are just German shaped helmets which were and are very good helmets. Even the Warsaw Uprising insergents used them. The Chines Nationalist army and the Egyptian army.   A M35 German helmet with Kuo Ming tang insignia.In the 1920's the Chinese Nationalists also accepted aid from the Soviet Union. The head of the Chinese Nationalists, Sun Yat-Sen signed an agreement in 1923 with the Soviets. The Soviets agreed to help Sun drive the " Imperialists" from China, and members of the Chinese Communist Party actually joined the Kuomintang, after pledging not to subvert it and still maintaining the Chinese Communist Party. In 1925 Chiang Kai-Shek succeeded Sun and relied heavily on his Soviet advisors Michael Borodin and Vassily Blucher aka General Galen. In 1927 Chiang siezed Shanghai with Communist help, then turned on them on April 12, killing the lot.  Nationalist Chinese Kuo Ming tang soldiers wearing the German HelmetThe German trained divisions were the elite of the infantry divisions in the Chiang Kai-Shek's National Revolutionary Army ( NRA) trained under Sino-German cooperation. These divisions were active in the Chinese Civil War and Second Sino-Japanese War. In 1927, after the dissolution of the First United Front between the Nationalists and the Communists, the ruling Kuomintang ( KMT, or the Chinese Nationalist Party) purged its leftist members and largely eliminated Soviet influence from its ranks. Chiang Kai-shek then turned to Germany, historically a great military power, for the reorganisation and modernisation of the National Revolutionary Army. The Weimar Republic sent advisors to China, but because of the restrictions imposed by the Treaty of Versailles, they could not serve in military capacities. Chiang initially requested famous generals such as Ludendorff and von Mackensen as advisors - the Weimar Republic turned him down, fearing that they were too famous, would invite the ire of the Allies, and would result in the loss of national prestige for such renowned figures to work, essentially, as mercenaries. When Adolf Hitler became Chancellor in 1933 and disregarded the Treaty, the anti-communist NSDAP (the Nazi Party) and the anti-communist KMT were soon engaged in close cooperation with Germany training Chinese troops and expanding Chinese infrastructure, while China opened its markets and natural resources to Germany. Max Bauer was the first advisor to China. In 1934 General Hans von Seeckt, acting as advisor to Chiang, proposed a " 80 Division Plan" for reforming the entire Chinese army into 80 divisions of highly trained, well-equipped troops organised along German lines. The plan was never fully realised, as the different warlords vying for power simply could not agree on who would get the new troops and whose would be disbanded. By July 1937 only 8 infantry divisions had completed reorganisation and training. These were the 3rd, 6th, 9th, 14th, 36th, 87th, 88th, and the Training Division. Another 12 divisions equipped with Chinese arms on the reorganized model with German advisors had some training by the time the Second Sino-Japanese War started in July 1937. These Divisions were the 2nd, 4th, 10th, 11th, 25th, 27th, 57th, 67th, 80th, 83rd, 89th Infantry Divisions.  Sino-German cooperation played a great role in Chinese history of the early and mid-20th century.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-German_cooperationde.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinesisch-Deutsche_Kooperation_(1911–1941) |
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Post by pieter on Feb 24, 2013 12:06:54 GMT -7
 German Arab Legion during the Second World War Arab soldier in Greece Argentinean soldiers wear German helmets during the July 19, 1941 independence day celebration in Buenos Aires. This photo was taken in 1938 in a military barracks in Argentina. The helmets are fiber parade versions in light green with decal on the right side (not visible in the photograph). The helmet is believed to me of Argentinean manufacture. Note the two soldiers wear uniforms and equipment patterned after German standards. (Diego A. Godoy / Argentina) |
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Post by karl on Feb 24, 2013 13:59:15 GMT -7
Pieter
Very excellent examination of a time long past.
Argentina is of course as the following will indicate, but also of prewar German investment into the infrastructure and with this, as the key to unlock private investment and business under the skirts of goverment protection. A manner of distribution of gained resources shared from the profits gained to the Argintinian goverment. In return, protection from union strikes and labour enfluenced slow downs.
Some what simular in Uruguay.
The other situation was the prewar escape of families and individuals of Jewisch to Argintina as a bahn trail to then other states of South America.
World War II Country Trends: Argentina
Argentina is almost unique among Latin American countries in that the population is largely of European extraction. The countries indigenous population was largely exterminated. Thus the countries national view was always largely European. The most important immigrant groups were Italian, Spanish, and German. As a result there was some support for both Fascism and the Axis in Argentina. Groups like the Alianza Juventud Nacionalista openly supported the Axis. FBI agents played major role in uncovering NAZI agents in other Latin American countries, but the Argentune Government refused to act against NAZI agents. These agents found considerable support from the German community which tended to maintain itself separate from large Argentine society. There were entire towns that were essentially German with German-speaking schools. Many of the communities adopted NAZI models. Argentines as a whole supported the Allies. This is interesting given the large number of Italian immigrants. Some Argentines volunteered to fight with the Allies. The British RAF even activated an Argentine squadron. I'm not sure if Argentines voluteered to fight on the Axis side. The Argentine Army was strongly influenced by the Germans. Col. Jun Peron idealized Mussolini. Argentina thus while theoretically neutral was pro-Axis for much of the War. After Italy withdrew from the War (1943), the Allies pressured Argentina to declare war on Germany (1944). This was only a token step. Argentina remained pro-German throught the War, even after details of NAZI attrocities emerged. A German U-boat appeared at Mar del Plata instead of surrendering to the Allies (May 1945). After the War, Argentina became a haven for NAZI war criminals, including the infamous Dr. Josef Mengele. Eva Peron is known to have accepted substantial payments in exchange for offering a refuge to NAZI war criminals and looted property. American diplomat Hiram Bingham, who had managed to save some Jewish refugees in Vichy, turned up evidence of Argentines sheltering NAZI war criminals. When the State Department refused to persue his leads, he resigned in protest (1946). German scientists who fled their country after the War set up jet aircraft production in Argentina.
Population
Argentina is almost unique among Latin American countries in that the population is largely of European extraction. The countries indigenous population was largely exterminated during the early colonial period. Thus the countries national view was always largely European. The most important immigrant groups were Italian, Spanish, and German.
Argentine Fascism
As a result of the country's ethnic mix, there was some support for both Fascism and the Axis in Argentina. Groups like the Alianza Juventud Nacionalista openly supported the Axis.
NAZI Threat
The Fascist groups provided an enviroment which could and did support NAZI agents. FBI agents played major role in uncovering NAZI agents in other Latin American countries, but the Argentune Government refused to act against NAZI agents. These agents found considerable support from the German community which tended to maintain itself separate from large Argentine society. There were entire towns that were essentially German with German-speaking schools. Many of the communities adopted NAZI models. It is unclear just what kind of threat the NAZIs posed in Argentina. One historian claims that the threat was exagerated by the British. [Newton] Reports suggest that because of high level support (including President Ramon S. Castillo as well as Col. Peron) and important military commanders that NAZI agents including Sicherheitdienst (SD) operatives moved freely throughout the country. One historian claims that the major goal of the NAZIs and their Argentine supporters was to help bring friendly governments to power. They did have one sucess. They supported a military coup in Bolivia which overthrew a government oriented toward the United States (1943). [Goñi, Peron] Efforts in Brazil, Paraguay and Chile failed to achieve any success. (Of course if the military situation in Europe had not shifted against the NAZIS, this could hsve been different.)
Popular Sentiment
Argentines as a whole seem to have supported the Allies. This is interesting given the large number of Italian immigrants.
Economic Interests
Argentina had important economic ties to the British. And as the Royal Navy supportedby the American Navy (after 1941) dominated the sea, Argentina had no real economic alternatives but to trade with the Allies. Argentina thus throughout the War supplied food to the Britsh. As a result, Argentina benefitted economically through exporting durung the War--just as it had during World War I.
Argentine Volunteers
Some Argentines volunteered to fight with the Allies. Many were descdents of British and other foreign enginners who worked in Argentina on various projects, espeially constructing railroads. About 800 Argentines volunteered to serve in the air war. Many were trained in Canada. The British RAF even activated an Argentine squadron--164 Squadron. [Meunier] An estimated 4,000 Argentines served in the three British mikitary services during the War. I'm not sure if Argentines voluteered to fight on the Axis side.
Argentine Military
The Germans supported a military mission in Argentina. The Argentine Army was strongly influenced by the Germans. Col. Jun Peron personally idealized Mussolini. Important elements in the Argentine military appear to have convinced themselves that Germany would win the War. Some continued to believe this as late as 1944.
German U-Boats
There are claims that the NAZI SS operated a secret Black Fleet of U-boats between Spain and Argentina. [Farago]. There appears to be some support for these claims in post-War Argentine naval archives, but we have not been able to substantiate the various accounts. A reader tells us that this is mentioned in Argentina's Nazi Eagles 1933-1945. We have not yet been able to track down the book. The U-Boats reportedly operated until the liberation of France (June-August 1944) cut off NAZI rail connections to Spain. The cargos were shipped from Germany through France to Spain. The U-boats picked up the cargo at a bay near Cadiz. There is no clear evidence as to just what was being shipped. Some believe it was forged British pound sterling notes. It is known that the NAZIs forced Jewish concentration camp inmaters to foreg British notes. They were reportedly indistinguishable from actual British bank notes. The notes were laundered through Argentine banks. Gold and other valuable may have also been shipped. Frederic Schwend operated the NAZI conterfeit ring. He found sanctuary in Peru after the war and was assistance by Banchero Rossi of the Caritas aid agency.
Official Policy
Argentina while theoretically neutral was pro-Axis for most of the War. After Italy withdrew from the War (1943), the Allies pressured Argentina to at least break relations with Germany, it was the only Latin American country not to do so, Argentina remained pro-German practically throught the War, even after details of NAZI attrocities began to emerge.
The Holocaust
The NAZI conquest of Europe resulted in entrapping a number of Argentine citizens living in occupied countries, most ominously about 100 Argentine Jews mostly living in Germany, France, Belgium, Holland, Italy and Greece. Foreign Minister von Ribbentrop after the War began to turn against Germany, attempted to maintain friendly relation with a dwindling number of countries that had not declared war on Germany. One country which was sympathetic with the Axis was Argentina. Col. Peron was an admirer of Musolini and many influential Argentines were NAZI sympathizers. Argetinawas use to the NAZIs both by harboring intelligence agents and as a place where war booty could be laundered. Ribbentrop appears to have confronted SS chief Himmler on the issue. Jews with Argentine passports were as a result given special treatment. Ribbentrop apparently took a specil interest in their welfare and on several occassins gave the Argentine Embassy in Berlin the opportunity to repatriate its Jewish nationals. German diplomats in Vichy, France discussed the situation of Argentine Jews there with Ricardo Olivera, Argentina's ambassador in Vichy. They gave Olivera 3 months to arrange for their repatriation. Olivera did nothing. Ribbentrop even after receiving no response from Argentine diplomats to his entrities sent a memo to SS Holocaust coordinator Adolf Eichman, reminding him of the importane of protecting the Argentine Jews (January 1943). The German Foreign Ministry called in Luis H. Irigoyen, the Secretary of the Argentine Embassy, to inform him that there were still 59 Argentines in Krakow, 7 in the Netherlands, and many others in Greece. The Germans showed Irigoyen 16 Argentine identity cards to proven that these people were Argentine citizens. Irigoyenreportedly glanced perfunctorily at the documents and told the Germans, "They are fake. The Argentine Embassy is not interested in the bearers of these apocryphal documents" (March 1943). The United States put pressure on Argentina and other Latin American conutries to join the war effort. By 1944 it was clear that Germany had lost the War. Argetina broke diplomatic relations with NAZI Germany (January 26, 1944). This meant that the Argentine Jews no longer were useful to the Germans. Most were reportedly transported to the Bergen-Belsen camp. Few details exist on their fate, but it is believed that all or almost all were killed. One author writes, "Argentina thus became the only country in the world to refuse the repatriation of its own citizens." Apparentlt Argentine diplomats were following secret Directive 11 issued by the Minister of Foreign Affairs, José María Cantilo on July 12, 1938,. Without referring specifically to Jews, Directive 11 instructed Argentine consulates to "reject visas, even those of transit or tourism, of all those people who abandoned their country of origin because they were undesirable or because they had been expelled, whatever the reasons". [Goñi, Odessa]
Act of Chapultepec (March 1945)
The Inter-American Conference on Problems of War and Peace convened at Chapultepec Castle, Mexico City (February 21-March 8, 1945. Argenties refusal to cooperate with the other American republics was of concern to the regional governments. It was most worrisome aspect of wartime diplomacy in the Americas. The Argentine problem was addressed by the delegated attending the Conference. Argenina was pointedly excluded from the Conference. The delegates declared in the Act of Chapultepec that the American republics were joint guardians of each against any aggression (March 8). They notified the recalitrant Argentine Government that she could be admitted to the future United Nations only if she adhered to the Act of Chapultepec and entered the war. The Argentine provisional government declared war on Germany (March 27, 1945). Italy was no longer an Axis country.
NAZI Haven
After the War, Argentina with a Government sympsthetic to European Fascists and a substantial Germnan minority was seen as potential safe haven by NZI war criminals attempting to escape Allied justice. Rumors of such an effort were fueled by two German U-boats which showed up off Argentina after the War. The first such U-boat was U-530. Oberleutnant Otto Wermuth did not surrender as ordered at the end of the War. Rather the boat headed for Argentina, a dangerous voyage at the time. Wemuth surrendered at Mar del Plata to the Argentine Navy (July 10, 1945). Wermuth jettisoned its deck gun, the crew carried no identification, and the ship's log disappeared. Wermuth did not explain his acions. The argentines tirned the boat and crew over to American jurisdiction. The second U-boat the reach Argentina was U-977. Instead of surrenderiung to the Allies (May 1945), it appeared unexpectledy at the port of Mar del Plata (August 17, 1945), an amazing 3 months after the end of the War. ThecArgentines trasferred the boat and crew to American jurisdiction. The U-977 did escape to Argentina, but it was not ordered to go there by the Kriegssmarine and carried a normal Kriegesmarine crew, not SS war criminals. After the War, Argentina did become a haven for NAZI war criminals, including the infamous Dr. Mengele. Using U-boats to get to Argentina, however, as best we can tell is a figment of the popular imagination. This has given rise to all kinds of rumors anout NAZI war criminals escaping to Argentina by U-boat. The SS shot large numbers of Germans trying to escape the front. And Hitler even had SS-man SS-Obergruppenführer Hans Georg Otto Hermann Fegelein shot because he was trying to escape Berlin with money and jewels. SS commander Himmler's efforts to neotiate with the Allies led to a break with Hitler which would have further complicated any effort for the SS to use U-boats. Thus the idea that the SS could have gotten the Kriregsmarine to help them escape seems somewhat far fetched. We know of no documented examples. There were routes that the SS and other war criminals used to get to Argentina after the War. The Argentine consulate in Barcelona issued false passports for Germans trying to get to Argentina. Estimates vary as to the numbers of NAZIs and NAZI colaborators assisted by Argentine diplomats. [Goñi, Peron] It may have been in the thousands. Eva Peron is known to have accepted substantial payments in exchange for offering a refuge for NAZI war criminals and looted property. American diplomat Hiram Bingham, who had managed to save some Jewish refugees in Vichy, turned up evidence of Argentines sheltering NAZI war criminals. When the State Department refused to persue his leads, he resigned in protest (1946). German scientists fleeing their defeated country set up jet aircraft production in Argentina. It was in Argentina that the SS architecht of the Holocaust, Adolf Eichman, found sanctuary. Eichman was eventually located and spirited out of the country by Isreali agents (1960).
Karl
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Post by Jaga on Feb 25, 2013 0:07:11 GMT -7
Pieter,
these German helmets were so hated since the Prussian times and the WW I. Still they survived for so long. But times changed, hopefully these helmets will be gone.
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Post by kaima on Feb 25, 2013 1:14:53 GMT -7
Pieter, these German helmets were so hated since the Prussian times and the WW I. Still they survived for so long. But times changed, hopefully these helmets will be gone. Those helmets were so hated through their association with the Nazis that it took the US many decades to abandon its own design from WW II and adapt a similarly shaped helmet, even though it was recognized that the "ear flap" design added a good degree of protection for the soldier. As I heard the story the steel helmet was developer in Germany in WW I when a German doctor noted that about 80% of the head wounds would have been prevented by a steel helmet. Then came their form, quickly developed and proven effective. It bore no relationship to the pickle haub (I believe it is spelled) that preceeded it and was made of leather. I got to see the old originals in Latvia when they regained independence and placed an honor guard at their Brivibas / Freedom monument in 1993. It looked for all the world like the uniforms came out of WW II. PS. I found no photos from that era in a Google image search, but did locate another site where they claimed Chile was the last country to use these. |
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Post by karl on Feb 25, 2013 11:02:53 GMT -7
Pieter, these German helmets were so hated since the Prussian times and the WW I. Still they survived for so long. But times changed, hopefully these helmets will be gone. Those helmets were so hated through their association with the Nazis that it took the US many decades to abandon its own design from WW II and adapt a similarly shaped helmet, even though it was recognized that the "ear flap" design added a good degree of protection for the soldier. As I heard the story the steel helmet was developer in Germany in WW I when a German doctor noted that about 80% of the head wounds would have been prevented by a steel helmet. Then came their form, quickly developed and proven effective. It bore no relationship to the pickle haub (I believe it is spelled) that preceeded it and was made of leather. I got to see the old originals in Latvia when they regained independence and placed an honor guard at their Brivibas / Freedom monument in 1993. It looked for all the world like the uniforms came out of WW II. PS. I found no photos from that era in a Google image search, but did locate another site where they claimed Chile was the last country to use these. It is interesting the perceptions of people relating to an object to a memory, but we are all human and this is part of our selves.. In reality, form to function is most important rather then an idea. For the helmet is head protection of all solders of any state or nation regardless of nationality.. As with progress, the old style helmet {Stahlhelm}-steel helmet..has been outdated and replaced by the style as depicted by the following url: www.bestprotection.de/shop/en/Body-Armour/Protection-Helmets/Combat-Helmets/Karl |
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