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Post by Jaga on Jun 22, 2013 23:52:41 GMT -7
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Post by Eric on Jun 23, 2013 7:31:23 GMT -7
It looks like many of the people are older, and so maybe they just want to preserve some traditions from their own generation.
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Post by Jaga on Jun 23, 2013 9:07:22 GMT -7
Eric, yes, the age is a problem. These might be very nice people but they just look very overdressed..... All these women have the same hair color:
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Post by Nictoshek on Jun 27, 2013 5:07:35 GMT -7
I went there all the time. Always did enjoy their large paintings.
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Post by pieter on Jun 27, 2013 5:46:07 GMT -7
Here are some pictures from PMA, The Polish Museum of America. Many activities take place in order to raise more money, balls, lectures. Still, I have a feeling that these people live in their own world which goes away. Jaga, You are right. These people live in their own world of a romantic image and vision of a Poland which doesn't exist anymore. The modern, democratic, pragmatic, dynamic, free and progressive Poland of today (in the sense of technological progression, new ideas and connection to the Western world and ideas) is different than their Pre-war or Post-war (Cold war times) vision of Poland. It's the same, exactly the same ofcourse with Dutch-Americans, German-Americans, Italian-Americans, Ukrainian-Americans and others with a European heritage, who have the view of the good old Europe of the fiftees, thirtees or twenties. Cheers, Pieter
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Post by Nictoshek on Jun 27, 2013 9:21:17 GMT -7
Here are some pictures from PMA, The Polish Museum of America. Many activities take place in order to raise more money, balls, lectures. Still, I have a feeling that these people live in their own world which goes away. Jaga, You are right. These people live in their own world of a romantic image and vision of a Poland which doesn't exist anymore. The modern, democratic, pragmatic, dynamic, free and progressive Poland of today (in the sense of technological progression, new ideas and connection to the Western world and ideas) is different than their Pre-war or Post-war (Cold war times) vision of Poland. It's the same, exactly the same ofcourse with Dutch-Americans, German-Americans, Italian-Americans, Ukrainian-Americans and others with a European heritage, who have the view of the good old Europe of the fiftees, thirtees or twenties. Cheers, Pieter Thats exactly what the communista Bierut-Golmuka regime told their subjugated citizens. There's just one problem with that: When there's no history, no tradition, then there's NO FUTURE
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Post by Jaga on Jun 27, 2013 9:46:36 GMT -7
Nictoe, yes, we need to cultivate history and tradition. Polonia helped Poles in their home country for years. Still, I agree with Pieter, they look at Poland that does not really exist anymore.
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Post by kaima on Jun 27, 2013 12:41:40 GMT -7
Thats exactly what the communista Bierut-Golmuka regime told their subjugated citizens. There's just one problem with that: When there's no history, no tradition, then there's NO FUTURE [/quote] So how did America start out in 1776? Which history do you wish to hold to in America today, the one from 50 years ago that never told about blacks or Indians participating in building this country or the more current versions that admit to them having been involved? I was just in Wawel Castle and took time from the official self led guide electronic device, which is QUITE worth while in its own right, tremendously adding to the value of what I was seeing - I took time and studied the decorative paintings on the upper walls, in one room soldiers, another people of common life in the 1600's from kings to farmers. None of them wore the kroj that is so looked upon as Polish folk tradition today. Does that mean we should hang on to kroy from 1880 and 1900 as typically Polish? Does that mean we should not hang on to kroy from 1880 and 1900 as typically Polish? Tthe history and culture you wish to chose is your personal choice. I also agree that living in the past, as these immigrant descendants often seem to do, is inappropriate. They should not have to go back to the 1600's to be 'genuine', but they should also allow modern Poles to be modern and not museum pieces. * * * * On another note, I have said before that I simply do not go along with groups that decide to stop the clock in style, as in Amish or Old Believers or Orthodox Jews. I still think the latter should run around in Moses' robes if they are truely Orthodox and not some modern imagination of Orthodox (when was that black in style in Central and Eastern Europe? A few hundred years ago is truly Orthodox? You are what you choose to be.
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Post by pieter on Jun 27, 2013 16:31:29 GMT -7
Jaga, You are right. These people live in their own world of a romantic image and vision of a Poland which doesn't exist anymore. The modern, democratic, pragmatic, dynamic, free and progressive Poland of today (in the sense of technological progression, new ideas and connection to the Western world and ideas) is different than their Pre-war or Post-war (Cold war times) vision of Poland. It's the same, exactly the same ofcourse with Dutch-Americans, German-Americans, Italian-Americans, Ukrainian-Americans and others with a European heritage, who have the view of the good old Europe of the fiftees, thirtees or twenties. Cheers, Pieter Thats exactly what the communista Bierut-Golmuka regime told their subjugated citizens. There's just one problem with that: When there's no history, no tradition, then there's NO FUTURE Nicetoe, I am not a representative of the former Polish Peoples Republic, the Polish United Workers' Party, PZPR, nor from the present Polish left ( SLD). I have never been a communist nor a socialist. My only sin in the past is that I have voted for Dutch Labour, but they are Social-democrats. Ofcourse the Polish communist regime was critical about the Polish Diaspora, the Polonia, in Westernn-Europe and the USA. For the wrong, opportunistic, false and political reason that they believed in the truth of Marxism-Leninism, and their ' New Poland', a Socialist state. Daily life in Warsaw in the 1930ies I explained that my word progressive has a different meaning. With progressive I mean the new, pluralistic, liberal democracy Poland. I criticize the sentimental, distorched, cliché image some Polish-Americans have about a Poland that does not exist any longer. History, tradition and a cultural connection to Poland is important for me as being a half Pole, and maybe being part of a Polish diaspora. My Polish diaspora is this Polish Culture Forum, and Bonobo's Polish culture Forum. My Diaspora idea is this freedom of expression and exchange of ideas on this Forum. That pluriform Polonia idea is the freedom and great fact that we can disagree on things, and that you can criticize me and I can defend myself. I stil believe that a lot of Polonia in the USA and also other parts of the world have an outdated view of Poland, due to a lack of understanding and connection to present day Poland. The procession of school children to celebrate the Spring Festival, organized by the Folk School Society in Krakow.. Kraków, 1934-05-03. In the same time the Polish-Americans and old Polish-Dutch are entitled and free to have their folkloristic, sentimental and romantic outdated (in my view) image of Poland with Folkdances, Diaspora Polish culture (which is different than Polish culture in Poland) and Polish nationalism. My proof of this is the fact that I have contacts with Diaspora Poles and Poles from Poland. They are different, and that is okay, and I think they enrich eachother in communication, contact and exchange of ideas, information and knowledge. And now some selfcriticism Nicetoe. I think that as being part of the Polish diaspora or half Pole I am part of the group I criticized overhere myself. I have my own sentimental memories about the Poland of the seventies and eighties, and the stories of my Polish family and Polish friends of my mother of the twenties, thirties, fourtees, fiftees, sixtees, seventies and eightees. I remember the stories of the family life in Prewar Poland, during the Nazi-Occupation, during the Bierut Stalinist period (the worst period of communist Poland: 1945-1956), the communist regime after that (1956-1989), and democratic free Poland (1989-1990). I have an idealistic or romantic image of the Poland of the Interbellum (1919-1939) and the Post-communist Poland (1989-2013) myself. Poznan, 1937But that Diaspora image of Poland held by me has been corrected or criticized by real Poles from Poland I met on the Internet and in real life. Aadam (probably from Warsaw), Bunjo (from Warsaw), Pawian ( Bonobo) (from Krakow), Tufta (from Warsaw) and Piotr Gardecki (From Wrocław: whom I met and spoke with in the Netherlands twice), being in Krakow in April 2004 and Warsaw in August 2006 and friends of my mother from Poznan and Warsaw (I asked about her phone conversations with those people inside Poland). I was confronted with mild ironical remarks if I made sentimental or romantic statements about Poland or stated some outdated 'oldfashionate' ideas about for instance ' Old Varsovians' and ' New Varsovians' after the war. Varsovians themselves corrected me saying 'to distinghuish between Old- and New Varsovians is outdated today, because there are only Varsovians'. I was thinking the old way, like Poles who survived the Warsaw uprising in which large part of the Varsovian elite, intelligentsia and old Varsovian population was exterminated or removed from the Polish capital. After the war many people of other parts of Poland came to populate the Polish capital. People from other towns, cities and villages. Workingclass, farmers, middle class and etc. They were newcommers, they were the ' New Varsovians'. The ' New Varsovians' merged with the ' Old Varsovians' during the decades and in that development the New Warsaw developped and Varsovians became Varsovians, whether they were old or new Varsovians. My Polish family from my mother (my dziadek, babcia, mother and aunt -later Polish-American aunt from Chicago) were 'New Varsovians' in the twenties, thirties and fourties. My babcia's family came from Southern-Poland (near Krakow) and my dziadeks family came from North-East Poland (near Lithuania). I have a distorched, romantic, Polish Patriotic, colored view of their life in Pre-war Poland in a beautiful, modern, cosmopolitan, rich, Independent and Free Poland. But was it free? Was it prosporous for every (or most) Poles? It was the period of the Sanacja regime. First Pilsudski and after his death the colonels regime. My family had a good life back then. A family member was a christian-democratic parlaiment member (probably Pro-Sanacja or neutral), my dziadek had a good position as a teacher at a girls lyceum in Warsaw and inspector of a Warsaw school district. They had a good life, good contact with both families, work, school/education, vacations, friends and nice colleages. Everything changed due to the Second World War and the Communist years after that, which ruined their future, status, wealth, careers. I see a black and white image Nicetoe. Interbellum years (1919-1939) and Post-communist time (1989-2013) good and Second World War (1939-1945) and communist years (1945-1989) bad. That is my belief and that is what I heard from family members, my mother and Poles that I speak and spoke with. But is everything black and white. Did not love, marriages, work, study, life and hope continued during the war and in the time of the Polish peoples republic? Why do I have good memories about my vacations as a child and teenager in Socialist Poland during the seventies and eighties? The regime was bad an corrupt, I felt the tension in the air, the people were opressed, but they lived their lives with their friends, colleages, loved ones and did what they wanted to do with or without the approval of the authorities. The work and effort of the dissidents, the underground writers, poets, journalists, artists, workers and etc. ( KOR/ Solidarnosc). Daniel and Laura Schwarzwald, pictured on a beach in Zaleszczyki, Poland, shortly after they were married. Poland, 1935.Again I am part of that Polish diaspora or Polonia without being an official member or having contact with that Diaspora (because I am a loner and individualist, I don't believe in the collective of a group). I admid that I am more interested in Poland than in the Polish Diaspora and in contact with Poles. But next to that the Polish diaspora is a source of interest and inspiration to me, if that Diaspora or Polonia is directly connected to Poland. My criticism was directed at the isolated Polonia, who have no realistic image of present day Poland. Ofcourse Polish history, Polish tradition, the special Polish version or flavor of Roman-Catholicsm, Polish culture, the Polish language, Polish customs, Polish peoples culture (Polish Folk) and Polish people outside Poland are important. I will never deny that. I also support or welcome the Polish diaspora culture of the Polonia, even if sometimes that has nothing to do with Poles or Poland. Polish-Americans and Poles are two different things (Like the jewish Diaspora in Europe and the USA on one side and the Israeli's on the other side are two different things). Polish-American culture and Polish culture are two different things too. But they are interrelated and connected. The 10 million Polish-Americans are important. They should travel to Poland more, stay in Poland for a while, connect to Poland and exchange ideas and knowledge with Poles. Polish-American business people could do business with Poland, Polish-American pupils, highschool and university students could go on Polish summer course in Poland. Poles from Poland could travel to the USA and teach Polish Americans Polish and etc, etc. And ofcourse this is happening right now. There are connections and there is exchange between Polish-Americans and Poles. But again Polish-Americans and Poles are two different people. Polish-Americans are Americans, they are Yankees! Biala Podlaska, Poland, 1935.Cheers, Pieter
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Post by Nictoshek on Jun 28, 2013 6:16:49 GMT -7
--Amon Goeth
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Post by karl on Jun 28, 2013 7:36:36 GMT -7
Even though as a non-Polish person, still do I have eyes and ears, with this, empathic understanding. With this as an introduction, I do have an opinion to offer.
Yes, all that has been said is true and valid, rather my self to agree or not to agree is not the body of opinion. But, rather it be to these people for what ever reason they have to have left their former country and homes to this new land as new Americans.
Most all of us have withen our selves our basic needs, and beyound the natural needs of survival, is the needs of knowledge of our origens. Not just for our selves, but to pass on to our families present and future of their history, it is just a basic need to know that is intrinsic withen most of us.
With the above though perhaps is another need that is withen most of us, and this is most demostrated by the group photo of yes, those folks of Polish at a gathering we may assume is majority Polish. It is most apparant of the happy faces as shown by the photo, the people are content with enjoyment of being together with a common purpose of sharing of their history.
If we as observers wonder for why or for what reason exist for this gathering of Polish people, perhaps due consideration needs be applied. The consideration is the cohesion of common bond that keeps them together and reason of being. The common bond as protrayed, is also the one firm feeling some may have to hold on to in the world of lifes storm. With this, by sharing with one another, a release of built up tension encountered in daily living.
Of course, as an out sider looking in, my observations may be off centred but I do not think perhaps by much. For it may be rather unsettling mixed with a bit of fear in first arriving in a strange land amongst the people and thinking, what should I do? Have I made a terrible mistake? What are these people thinking of me? Will I fit in, and how do I become friends with this people?
And yes, these people we would name as immigrants, are in that stead, people with the courage and stamina to do right because it is right to relocate for what ever reason.
Karl
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Post by pieter on Jun 28, 2013 12:12:16 GMT -7
--Amon Goeth Nicetoe, I sincerely hope that to Polish-Americans and other Polonia in the world never will happen what happened to the Polish-Roman Catholic Poles in the Second World War in Poland, Germany and Austria ( 3 million dead: being considered inferior slavic people. Many of them died in German Nazi concentration camps in Poland, Germany and Austria), Polish jews ( 3 million dead), the European jews of other European countries ( 3 million dead), the Roma and Gypsies ( 5 hundred thousand dead), the 7,200,000 Russians civilians and 6,750,000 Russian soldiers (being considered inferior slavic people; often starved to death in concentration camps. The Russians were amongst the worst treated people after the Jews, Roma and Sinti, they were treated with great contempt, brutality and indifference. The German and Austrian Nazi's killed an estimated 2.8 million Soviet POWs primarily through starvation, exposure, and summary execution), the 6,850,000 Ukrainains ( being considered inferior slavic people; and victims of both Nazi- and Stalinist terror) and the 2,290,000 Belarussians that died ( being considered inferior slavic people also). And I want to mention that the Armenian genocide costed between 1 and 1.5 million Armenian lives in the Ottoman Empire of 1915. After the death of Vladimir Lenin the Armenians suffered again. Joseph Stalin took the reins of power and began an era of renewed fear and terror for Armenians. As with various other ethnic groups who lived in the Soviet Union during Stalin's Great Purge, tens of thousands of Armenians were either executed or deported. Nicetoe, fortunately and thank god the Polish-Americans (*whom I hold very dear, because I have Polish-American family in Chicago and Milwaukee) did not share the fate of these people during the Second World War, and Tutsi's in Rwanda, the Black of Dafur and Southern-Sudan and the persecution of the Rohingya people in Burma. Cheers, Pieter * Two peoples are very (especially) dear to me as family members, friends and fellow Forum members, the Poles (from Poland) and Polish-Americans. (Also, because Poles and Polish-Americans were our liberators in 1945 as Polish and American soldiers, officers and generals. And ofcourse Arnhem [we, I], due to Market Garden -September 1944, have a very special connection with the Western allied war veterans and the brave men that died her in their attempt to liberate this part of the Netherlands, the British and Polish soldiers and officers who lie at the war cemetery in Oosterbeek, and the many war veterans that visited us during the years, Poles and Brits)
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Post by pieter on Jun 28, 2013 13:36:35 GMT -7
Even though as a non-Polish person, still do I have eyes and ears, with this, empathic understanding. With this as an introduction, I do have an opinion to offer. Yes, all that has been said is true and valid, rather my self to agree or not to agree is not the body of opinion. But, rather it be to these people for what ever reason they have to have left their former country and homes to this new land as new Americans. Most all of us have withen our selves our basic needs, and beyound the natural needs of survival, is the needs of knowledge of our origens. Not just for our selves, but to pass on to our families present and future of their history, it is just a basic need to know that is intrinsic withen most of us. With the above though perhaps is another need that is withen most of us, and this is most demostrated by the group photo of yes, those folks of Polish at a gathering we may assume is majority Polish. It is most apparant of the happy faces as shown by the photo, the people are content with enjoyment of being together with a common purpose of sharing of their history. If we as observers wonder for why or for what reason exist for this gathering of Polish people, perhaps due consideration needs be applied. The consideration is the cohesion of common bond that keeps them together and reason of being. The common bond as protrayed, is also the one firm feeling some may have to hold on to in the world of lifes storm. With this, by sharing with one another, a release of built up tension encountered in daily living. Of course, as an out sider looking in, my observations may be off centred but I do not think perhaps by much. For it may be rather unsettling mixed with a bit of fear in first arriving in a strange land amongst the people and thinking, what should I do? Have I made a terrible mistake? What are these people thinking of me? Will I fit in, and how do I become friends with this people? And yes, these people we would name as immigrants, are in that stead, people with the courage and stamina to do right because it is right to relocate for what ever reason. Karl Excelent, considerate, wise and sincere reply Karl!
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Post by pieter on Jun 30, 2013 16:26:47 GMT -7
On December Dec 7, 2008 I wrote this about this subject: Diaspora communitiesLithuanian Poles walk through the streets of Vilnius during “Polonia”-day ( remembrance of the Polish diaspora), May 2nd 2008.Sometimes Diaspora communities have an old fashionate, conservative and nostalgic view of their old country. For instance the Dutch diaspora communities in the USA, Southern-America, South-Africa and other places often cherish and maintain the Duth culture and mentality of the time they left Holland (in the 19th century, early 20th century or the fourtees or fiftees). They often have old fashionate Dutch households, are conservative Protestant Christians or Catholics, in America often the rightwing of the Republican party. Maybe the same thing is with the Polish diaspora the matter, that they have a 19th century, pre-war (before 1939) or Polish Peoples republic view on things. My mother told me about very Polish nationalist Polish-Americans in Chicago who couldn't speak a word of Polish, but twere the biggest fierce Polish Patriots you could imagine. My mother was suprised about that and made some ironical and critical comments about it. They are not Polish, but have a folklorist, sentimental, distorched view about Poland. At least my cousins in Chicago and Milwaukee were brought up by two Polish speaking Polish parents who moved to America from Poland after the war. They speak the language and visit Poland regulary, but they are Americans, English speaking people with English speaking kids, who get Polish culture lessons as well, but who are American kids in an American family with Polish-Amerian roots. Outside the Polish Embassy in London last April, Poles living in the United Kingdom paid tribute to President Lech Kaczynski, killed in a plane crash in Russia. (September 2010)
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Post by pieter on Jul 3, 2013 8:05:27 GMT -7
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