|
Post by hollister on Mar 7, 2008 3:31:44 GMT -7
|
|
nathanael
Cosmopolitan
: “Die Wahrheit macht frei und ist das Fundament der Einheit (John Paul II)
Posts: 636
|
Post by nathanael on Mar 19, 2008 14:25:36 GMT -7
Autism is most likely an illness caused by modernity. The Amish, who keep their children away from TV, computers, etc. have no known incidence of this disease! The Amish must be doing something right. Based on their experience, and without claiming to be an expert, I can conclude that autism is a mysterious children's response against a society's unnatural ways of parenting in a highly novel (modern) environment, full of scary images unfamiliar to human nature! An autistic person, most probably, is not born autistic: he or she becomes autistic! A child reacts unnaturally to a world that both scares and fascinates him - a world he does not understand. The Amish ways of parenting in a natural, friendly to human nature milieu, breeds zero autistic people!
|
|
|
Post by kaima on Mar 19, 2008 14:32:49 GMT -7
Nathanael,
It sounds like you took a completely theoretical approach to developing your theory. I bet you never lived with or near the Amish ...
Kai
|
|
nathanael
Cosmopolitan
: “Die Wahrheit macht frei und ist das Fundament der Einheit (John Paul II)
Posts: 636
|
Post by nathanael on Mar 19, 2008 15:48:26 GMT -7
Nathanael, It sounds like you took a completely theoretical approach to developing your theory. I bet you never lived with or near the Amish ... Kai No, indeed, Kaima. All I know about the Amish is from my anthropology classes and reading, including the articles that have been posted on this forum. That the Amish have no autism within their ranks is public knowledge, and that they keep modernity away from children is also a known fact. I am just trying to debunk this mystery, which remains unsolved to the scientists. On close reading, it is clear that the scientists are hopelessly divided on what causes autism. I had participated earlier this year on the Irish blog (Irish Health), and the same thing was true. People are desperate to find both cause and cure. We all should make every effort to help humanity to free itself from this disease. Incidently, it would be interesting to study autism's incidence among the Hassidics, who have quite similar lifestyles. I should also remind Kaima that, if I were him, I wouldn't demonize "a completely theoretical approach" to insights and discoveries. First of all, I am an educated person, so my words are never "completely theoretical." There is always an educated mind behind them. More importantly, all great discoveries were completely theoretical pure insights, and to this "approach" we owe the discovery of America, the theory of relativity, and the [Polish] discovery that the earth ain't flat, just to mention a few great advances that have been made!
|
|
|
Post by kaima on Mar 19, 2008 16:06:43 GMT -7
Nathaniael,
I grew up with Mennonite next door and Amish near enough that I could get stories from friends who had regular commerce with them over the decades. They are quite human and subject to all of the temptations we have, but ther eis no need to get into that.
What I was referring to your statement "The Amish, who keep their children away from TV, computers, etc. have no known incidence of this disease! The Amish must be doing something right. Based on their experience, and without claiming to be an expert, I can conclude that autism is a mysterious children's response against a society's unnatural ways of parenting in a highly novel (modern) environment, full of scary images unfamiliar to human nature!"The first statement is generally correct. They do seem to visit gentile neighbors for TV on occasion, and cell phones seem a regular part of the business day. Quality of their work can also vary over the spectrum from the ideal high quality we think of to ... uh ... bad. Just as they must be doing something right, I will say conventional society must be doing something right as well, or we sould not be worrying about it all the time!
What seems farthest out is the final statement "unnatural ways of parenting in a highly novel (modern) environment, full of scary images unfamiliar to human nature!". What do you consider natural parenting? Conventional American? Conventional Polish, Tibetan or Peruvian? I have to doubt that scary images is to blame. Look at all of the costumes of devils, witches and unearthly beings that permeate so many of our civilizations; look at stories like Hansel and Gretel and the evil and ugliness they bring to a child's imagination. In short, i disagree.
Now I can suspect some of the trace chemicals or preservatives in vaccinations as a cause. I really haven't looked at scientific statistics (as opposed to popular press statistics and propaganda) to tell which societies are relatively free an which are not. It sure would be nice to reverse the trend, however.
Kai
|
|
nathanael
Cosmopolitan
: “Die Wahrheit macht frei und ist das Fundament der Einheit (John Paul II)
Posts: 636
|
Post by nathanael on Mar 19, 2008 16:20:05 GMT -7
First, your "living near the Amish" does not necessarily qualify you as a better scholar than myself. Secondly, my statement regarding "unnatural parenting" must be read in the context of all that has been said, namely, the historically documented (I emphasize that) contrast between the humanity since Adam and Eve, and the humanity of the last 30 years! When you look at these two broad historical contexts, and contrasts, you will have to conclude that modernity constitutes an undeniable shock to humanity's natural ways of the past, including in the area of parenting. This is a scientific fact which needs no further proof. The scary part is what the child sees and hears, but is not able to process, the violent images, the complexity of school assignments, the one-parent home, the unchecked bullying etc. etc. This causes him to retreat into a shell, and this shock, which is cosmic in its scope, may well be having heretofore unheard of consequences on the manner in which his young brain develops within that shell! I used the word "parenting" advisedly, since proper, traditionally tested parenting is the only known barrier that can shield the child from the unwanted early impact of modernity! I should make clear that my intention was not to criticize "different parentings per se," but only to stress all that is traditionally good in all parentings, as well as the fact that, in all cultures children can and should be shielded from unwanted modernity's "violence," which is far beyond their brains' ability to cope!
|
|
Mary
Cosmopolitan
Posts: 934
|
Post by Mary on Mar 19, 2008 17:33:02 GMT -7
Kai & Nathanael;
There is no easy answer when it comes to the subject of autism. The more you read and learn will allow you a better picture. May I suggest you go to the subject "BRAIN FOOD" and the thread "AUTISM". It may take some time to get through all the posts and the articles, but I urge you to read and learn. You will find some of my opinions on the subject, and also why I think autism is virtually absent from the Amish communities.
Mary
|
|
|
Post by hollister on Mar 19, 2008 17:58:41 GMT -7
Nathanel, a major problem with your argument is that it is ahistorical. The concept of "childhood" as you seem to take as a universal and a constant is in actuality a very modern construction. Modern children enjoy more protections and nurturing than in any other time in human history. For example, during the middle ages children were considered small adults and treated as such. There was no real concept of adults needing to protect frail and vulnerable child from the ugliness of life. Until recently, as soon as children were able, they were expected to hold jobs and contribute to the families welfare. They often held the jobs with the greatest risks due to their size and the ease of replacing them. It is only in modern times the concept of needing to "shield" children emerged with the Progressive era and industrialization. So I question your statement that the "natural ways of the past" were some type of golden standard that we all must get back to. I think the problem lies more in refusal to take responsibility than in blaming bad parenting.
Also, I find it difficult to say Autism is due to TV or parenting. Scientist do not know. From the articles I read, the Amish have a much lower rate of Autism but it does exist. Why the Amish have such a lower rate is a subject of much discussion. It could be that genetically they are "protected" it might be that few children are immunized. The only way to know for sure would be to take some Amish children and expose them to the same environmental factors as non-Amish children and compare them to a "control" group of Amish and see if once removed from Amish society they experience the same rate of Autism as the non-Amish do.
Since Mary on our forum faces this trial and heartache everyday with her grandson, I ask you please be mindful when making such blanket statements about Autism being caused by bad parenting. Such statements only add hurts to an already painful situation. Lets support Mary and her grandson with our wishes for a cure or help for her grandson.
|
|
Mary
Cosmopolitan
Posts: 934
|
Post by Mary on Mar 19, 2008 18:23:54 GMT -7
Holli,
Thank you, I truly appreciate your support.
I must say I was not really offended by previous comments, but more so disappointed that so many people really don't have a clue and many, many people know so very little about a devastating condition that affects over 1 in 150 children and the number grows every year!
Many years ago..autism was thought to be caused by a "refrigerator mother" (referring to a cold uncaring mother) thus showing how ridiculous this theory was. When an answer can't be found, blame it on the mother...
Anyone who knows my daughter would tell you she is no "refrigerator mother"! Both her sons are showered with love and attention and always have been.
Ty, the youngest was a normal, developing little boy until just after his first birthday. He had some immunizations, including the MMR, a triple virus injected into his little body, and became very sick. This is when he started slipping away. There was no more eye contact, no reaction to calling his name, stimming started, and he developed terrible aversions to foods, and allergies to Gluten, Casein, and Soy. By the time he was 18 months old he was diagnosed with severe autism. HOW DOES THIS HAPPEN IN JUST 6 MONTHS???
I'm sorry, I don't mean to rant and rave. It's just so unnecessary to loose our children, we need a cure and prevention, and one of the things we need the most is for people to learn all they can, be supportive, (and believe me, if you don't know someone personally afflicted with autism in their family, you will, and all too soon) and urge parents to insist on spacing immunizations out. Insist the doctor work up a schedule for the shots, and NO COMBO SHOTS! If the Dr wont do it, change doctors! It's not worth the risk.
Mary
|
|
nathanael
Cosmopolitan
: “Die Wahrheit macht frei und ist das Fundament der Einheit (John Paul II)
Posts: 636
|
Post by nathanael on Mar 20, 2008 4:49:32 GMT -7
I am sorry Hollister, Generation 3, and Kaima. You are dead wrong and Hollister has insulted me personally. I tried to help Generatio 3 child by sheding the best light I could on the autism mystery, but this individual, cowardly, accused me of "trying to hurt Mary." When people are dumb, I can understand. But churlish insinuations about my character and motives I do not! I have every right to make every statement on this forum on autism or anything else. I have this right because I am a grown up person and a highly educated person! When I say that I disagree with your opinion, that's my right to say! I disagree that my argument is "ahistorical." That's hogwash! The fact that television and computers have largely supplanted mothers and fathers in the modern age, and that all this was particularly aggravated in the last 30 years, is as historical as it can be! The mothers and fathers are now dead aluminum boxes filled with RAM's, ROM's, CPU's, and PC's (I know something about this also given my Stevens Institute degree in computer design!). The real mothers and fathers are either outside home, or are victims of the perverted single-parent culture, where only one parent exists! These are facts, not "history"! I furthermore disagree with the preposterous notion that "Children enjoy more protection and nurturing now"; and that "the concept of childhood is a relatively modern construct"? You are out of your mind! That's hogwash to the power of ten! The fact is: ever since too many women refused "to bake cookies" and left home, and chased away from homes the "patriarchal fathers," the TV -parent and the PC-parent has largely replaced mother and father at home! These "parents" - TV's and PC's - neither nurture, nor protect: more often than not, they scare and pervert the young minds! Lastly, I have not questioned "Mary's parenting," but the pitfalls the modern society as a whole poses to parenting! Neither have I voiced any opinion on whether the multiple vaccines may also make things worse. They may! All this you seem to be implying. Consequently, you better back off from what you have said, or I will be history on this forum! Polish Culture deserves better than these kinds of cheap exchanges! Your statements are as good as mine, but you have no right to ask me "to curb mine"! I am fed up with the garbage which is being heapead on me recently on the Polish Forum!
|
|
nathanael
Cosmopolitan
: “Die Wahrheit macht frei und ist das Fundament der Einheit (John Paul II)
Posts: 636
|
Post by nathanael on Mar 20, 2008 5:00:59 GMT -7
Kai & Nathanael; There is no easy answer when it comes to the subject of autism. The more you read and learn will allow you a better picture. May I suggest you go to the subject "BRAIN FOOD" and the thread "AUTISM". It may take some time to get through all the posts and the articles, but I urge you to read and learn. You will find some of my opinions on the subject, and also why I think autism is virtually absent from the Amish communities. Mary Generation 3, the fact that there is no easy answer to anything does not mean that we shouldn't speculate on possible answers! Secondly, your post seems to suggest that "I am not doing the reading." You do not know this, and it is a cheap shot to throw into the air such "aspersion"! I started studying 30 years ago. I have several graduate degrees of the finest schools in the world, including 5.5 years at the Angelicum, the alma mater of the Polish Pope John Paul II! You have the right to your opinions on autism, and I have right to mine! Don't you dare to accuse me of "not reading," while claiming that you are "well-read"!
|
|
|
Post by hollister on Mar 20, 2008 5:31:12 GMT -7
I will not back off from what I said as I am a grown highly educated person as well and have every right to my opinion. I do not take threats lightly.
|
|
nathanael
Cosmopolitan
: “Die Wahrheit macht frei und ist das Fundament der Einheit (John Paul II)
Posts: 636
|
Post by nathanael on Mar 20, 2008 5:52:48 GMT -7
I will not back off from what I said as I am a grown highly educated person as well and have every right to my opinion. I do not take threats lightly. Except for one thing: you have no right to insult otheres for their opinions, or to curb their opinions. For that, you are too small!
|
|
Mary
Cosmopolitan
Posts: 934
|
Post by Mary on Mar 20, 2008 6:20:26 GMT -7
Kai & Nathanael; There is no easy answer when it comes to the subject of autism. The more you read and learn will allow you a better picture. May I suggest you go to the subject "BRAIN FOOD" and the thread "AUTISM". It may take some time to get through all the posts and the articles, but I urge you to read and learn. You will find some of my opinions on the subject, and also why I think autism is virtually absent from the Amish communities. Mary Generation 3, the fact that there is no easy answer to anything does not mean that we shouldn't speculate on possible answers! Secondly, your post seems to suggest that "I am not doing the reading." You do not know this, and it is a cheap shot to throw into the air such "aspersion"! I started studying 30 years ago. I have several graduate degrees of the finest schools in the world, including 5.5 years at the Angelicum, the alma mater of the Polish Pope John Paul II! You have the right to your opinions on autism, and I have right to mine! Don't you dare to accuse me of "not reading," while claiming that you are "well-read"! Nathanael, For a so-called educated person you seem to go off the deep end easily and accuse others of things they did not say or imply. One thing I have learned on this forum is that exchange of ideas and opinions is healthy, but only if there is a mutual respect. You seem unable to give anyone else the respect we have tried to extend to you. My comment to you was of a helpful nature, not insulting. Your skin seems very thin..........better toughen up. No need to reply to me, I won't carry on an exchange. You threaten to leave the forum, so do it. I'll shed no tears. Mary
|
|
|
Post by kaima on Mar 20, 2008 8:28:41 GMT -7
Mary,
I can claim to know more about autism than the average person, but do not claim any authority over the matter. I am fortunate and do not have any occurrence in the family, so it is not a pressing, preeminent topic with me. I see it in the family of friends, and I must wonder what the autistic person would be like without this condition.
Thanks for the recommendation, I will continue to read and try to learn. I also appreciate your tolerance of ideas that may be poorly expressed.
Kai
|
|