|
|
Post by Jaga on Mar 2, 2014 0:15:23 GMT -7
Pieter posted a lot about Ukraine's history, but I am not sure everybody is aware that Crimea became a part of Ukraine only in 1954 by Khrushchev, who was Ukrainian. Some part of Crimea like Sevastopol and Russian Sea Fleet were autonomous from Ukraine. I do not want to defend Russia, since Russians are not original residents of Crimea also, Tatars were there earlier, but before Tatars there were many others. Here is more about its history: www.voanews.com/content/the-history-of-crimea---in-brief-/1860431.htmlCrimea is a peninsula on the northern coast of the Black Sea and an autonomous Russian-speaking republic of Ukraine. In its early history, it was colonized and occupied repeatedly - by the Greeks, Romans, Huns, the Byzantine Empire, among others. In the 13th century, Crimea was occupied by the Tatars - Turkic-speaking Muslims who were part of the Golden Horde, a branch of the Mongol Empire established by a grandson of Genghis Khan. The Crimean Khanate became a vassal state of the Ottoman Empire in the 15th century, but also a power in its own right, claiming territory in what is today Russia's Caspian-Volga region. Crimea was conquered by the Russian Empire in 1783. The Crimean War of 1853-56, which pitted Russia against an alliance of Great Britain, France, Sardinia and Turkey, was fought mainly on the peninsula. The allied forces took the city of Sevastopol, the home of the Tsar’s Black Sea Fleet, after a long siege, and by the war’s end, the Crimea lay in ruins. During the civil war that broke out in the wake of the 1917 Russian Revolution, Crimea was the scene of brutal fighting between Tsarist, Bolshevik and anarchist forces. Following the Bolshevik victory, Crimea was made part of the Russian Soviet Federative Socialist Republic (RSFSR). In 1944, Soviet dictator Josef Stalin deported the entire Crimean Tatar population to Central Asia and other parts of the Soviet Union for their alleged collaboration with the Nazis. In 1954, the Soviet Union, now under the leadership of Nikita Khrushchev, transferred Crimea from the RSFSR to the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic. After the fall of the Soviet Union in 1991, Crimea became part of independent Ukraine, and Moscow and Kyiv agreed to divide up the former Soviet Black Sea Fleet. Crimea's port city of Sevastopol remains the base for Russia's Black Sea Fleet. Ethnic Russians account for 58 percent of Crimea's population, while Ukrainians make up 24 percent. Crimean Tatars, who began returning to the peninsula from exile after the fall of the Soviet Union, comprise 12 percent of its population. In a recent poll of Russians by the state-run All-Russia Center for the Study of Public Opinion, 56 percent of the respondents said they saw Crimea as belonging to Russia. Smaller numbers of those polled said they felt the same way about two of Russia's Muslim regions - Dagestan (41 percent) and Chechnya (39 percent). |
|
|
|
Post by JustJohn or JJ on Mar 2, 2014 8:56:28 GMT -7
ÖMER TAŞPINAR  Can Ukraine become Poland?A couple of months ago, a protest movement against the government in Kiev turned into a revolution and chaos. At the heart of the discontent was Victor Yanukovich's failure to sign an integration and free trade agreement with the European Union. The Ukrainian president was in many ways caught between a rock and a hard place. He knew full well that signing such an accord with Brussels would jeopardize economic and political relations with Moscow. At the end of the day, intense Russian trade pressure persuaded Yanukovich to back off from signing the EU deal and accept a $15 billion bailout from Moscow. After pro-EU protesters showed signs of turning their peaceful demonstrations into an insurrection, the government did not hesitate to use snipers who fired on protesters. This is when the insurrection turned into a revolution and dozens were killed in the process. Last Saturday, Ukrainian President Yanukovich was ousted in a vote by parliament and he fled to Russia, where he still insists on maintaining presidential powers. As Ukraine is in the midst of this chaotic transition, the situation in Kiev resembles the anti-communist revolutions in Eastern Europe after the collapse of communism in 1989. The question that comes to mind is whether the country can become the next Poland by paving its road to NATO and EU membership in the long-run. The odds seem to be against such a "happy end" scenario in Ukraine for many reasons. First there is the internal division of Ukraine. Unlike Poland, where the Polish people shared unambiguous anti-Russian and pro-Western feelings, the Ukrainian population is fragmented between the country's pro-European, Ukrainian-speaking west and Russian-leaning, Russian-speaking east and south. As if this major divergence were not enough, there is also the daunting challenge of Crimea, where Russia has a major naval force and where pro-Russian separatists clashed with supporters of Kiev's new pro-EU leadership last week. Another factor which differentiates Ukraine from Poland is Russia's reaction. Unlike Poland in 1989, Ukraine in 2014 faces an aggressive Russia. In 1989, Russia was collapsing economically and militarily. It was therefore unable to hold its overextended empire. Today, under Putin's leadership, Russia is resurgent thanks to high oil and gas revenues. Putin, unlike former Russian leaders, considers the collapse of the Soviet Union the greatest tragedy of the 20th century. In the eyes of Russian nationalists like Putin, Ukraine is not only a fraternal Slavic neighbor but the very cradle of Russian civilization. This is why the Ukrainian president's overthrow came as a shock to Moscow. Unlike losing Poland or even the Baltic Republics to the West, losing Ukraine is something Putin is not willing to digest. Not surprisingly, Russia now appears to be on the verge of a full-blown military invasion of Ukraine. Russian diplomacy spent most of last week by portraying Kiev's new leadership as illegitimate. Under such circumstances Ukraine will not be able to follow the footsteps of Poland towards membership in Western clubs like the European Union and NATO. Russia will simply not allow such an outcome. So what can the West do to help Ukraine? In the short term the urgent issue is to avert a full blown Russian invasion. On military issues only Washington has the power to impact Russian decision making. Yet, even for Washington, helping Ukraine does not involve a military option. All Washington can do is to signal clearly that a Russian invasion of Ukraine will trigger economic sanctions and diplomatic measures such as ousting Russia from the G-8. In the medium term both the US and the EU need to help Ukraine to withstand Russian pressure by stabilizing the Ukrainian economy. Not surprisingly, countries like Poland are already talking about the need for a new Marshall Plan to help not only Ukraine but also Georgia. In any case, Kiev's new government is more than anxious to sign a political association and free trade deal with Brussels. But with the Russian army mobilized next door and in Crimea, time is not on Kiev's side. 2014-03-02 |
|
|
|
Post by JustJohn or JJ on Mar 2, 2014 9:04:04 GMT -7
A little bit of history.
Ukrainian-Polish War in Galicia, 1918–19. The Ukrainian-Polish War broke out in late 1918 as a result of the Polish rejection of Ukrainian efforts to establish an independent state—the Western Ukrainian National Republic (ZUNR)—in the wake of the dissolution of the Austro-Hungarian Empire. The major issue of dispute in the conflict was control over eastern Galicia, a predominantly Ukrainian ethnic territory regarded by the Poles as an integral part of the historical Polish realm. As the boundaries of the new Polish state had not yet been established, and the ZUNR had not been granted international diplomatic recognition, the matter was ultimately reduced to a question of control by military force. The outbreak of hostilities can be dated to 1 November, when Poles in Lviv organized resistance to Ukrainian efforts to take control of the city (see November Uprising in Lviv, 1918). Similar resistance by Poles to the Ukrainian takeover followed in Drohobych, Sambir, Jarosław, and Peremyshl. The Ukrainian government, in response, established the Ukrainian Galician Army (UHA) as its regular military force. Until the end of December the war remained a series of local skirmishes that developed into a standoff in which the Poles controlled Lviv and certain territories west of the city. The command of the UHA did not possess an overall operational plan, and the Poles simply tried to maintain their position. By January 1919 the front stretched from Baligród (Balyhorod), in the Carpathian Mountains, along the Khyriv–Peremyshl railway line (with the Poles in possession of Peremyshl) to Lviv (in Polish hands) and then looped around in a clockwise direction to the Uhniv–Rava-Ruska area, from which it went northward. When the Polish government in Warsaw began to dispatch regular troops to eastern Galicia, the conflict assumed a new dimension. By January 1919, Polish numbers reached about 20,000 men. On 15 February the UHA (some 40,000 men) began a great offensive (the so-called Vovchukhy Operation) toward Lviv, the Peremyshl–Lviv railway line, Rava-Ruska, and Belz. By the end of the month a short armistice was being enforced by the Entente (as a result of negotiations by the Berthélemy Mission). On 2 March, however, the UHA renewed the attack and was able to encircle Lviv. On 19 March the Polish divisions broke through the Ukrainian lines in the region of Horodok (Lviv region) and retook the Lviv–Peremyshl corridor. On 2 April the Supreme Council of the Paris Peace Conference established a commission headed by Gen Louis Botha to arrange an armistice between Poland and Ukraine. The proposed demarcation line it suggested (Lviv to be on the Polish side, Drohobych and Boryslav, on the Ukrainian side) was accepted by the government of the ZUNR but rejected by the Polish government, which claimed the right to take over the whole of eastern Galicia. By that time the Poles had acquired the means to enforce their will. On 17 March the Supreme Council of the Paris Peace Conference had given permission for the army of Gen Józef Haller (six divisions, with about 68,000 men) to be transferred from France to Poland for the express purpose of securing a frontier against potential Bolshevik attack. It was moved in April. Although the Polish prime minister, Ignacy Paderewski, had assured the council that the army would not be sent to eastern Galicia, the troops were nonetheless being deployed there by mid-May. On 14 May a Polish force of approx 50,000 men attacked from the regions of Peremyshl, Horodok (Lviv region), and Lviv; in six days it had occupied Turka, Drohobych, and Stryi in the south and Kaminka-Strumylova in the north (the Polish offensive also included Volhynia). By 27 May the Poles had taken Halych and Stanyslaviv and were making contact with the Rumanian troops which entered Pokutia. The protests of the Entente and the need to transfer the armed forces to the west (because of fears of a German attack against Poland) stopped the Polish offensive on the Brody–Zolota Lypa River line. On 7 June the reorganized UHA (with Gen Oleksander Hrekov as commander in chief from 9 June) embarked upon the Chortkiv offensive, which in two weeks reached the Brody–Krasne–Peremyshliany–Hnyla Lypa River line. The UHA troops were now about 40 km from Lviv, but they began to run short of ammunition and provisions. At the same time the international situation of the ZUNR also changed for the worse: following the defeat of the Army of the Ukrainian National Republic in Volhynia by the Red Army the Supreme Council of the Paris Peace Conference empowered Poland (25 June) to take over the whole of eastern Galicia up to the Zbruch River in a move intended to block a potential Bolshevik onslaught to the west. The council, however, did not regard that resolution as a final decision on the political future of eastern Galicia. After new Polish troops (under the command of Józef Piłsudski) were transferred to the east, they commenced a decisive offensive on 28 June. On 5 July the Poles reached the line of the Strypa River, and on 15 July they seized Ternopil and the area on both sides of the Seret River. Despite the defeat the UHA forces (about 80,000 men, including 36,000 in the first line of the front) retained their combat readiness and on 16–18 July crossed to the eastern side of the Zbruch River, where the UNR Army was stationed. The government of the ZUNR also crossed the Zbruch River to Kamianets-Podilskyi. BIBLIOGRAPHY Hupert, W. Zajęcie Małopolski Wschodniej i Wołynia w roku 1919 (Lviv 1929) Omelianovych-Pavlenko, M. Ukraïns’ko-pol’s’ka viina 1918–1919 (Prague 1929) Krezub, A. [Dumin, O.] Narys istoriï ukraïns’ko-pol’s’koï viiny 1918–1919 (Lviv 1933; repr, New York 1966) Kutschabsky, W. Die Westukraine im Kampfe mit Polen und dem Bolschewismus in den Jahren 1918–1923 (Berlin 1934) Iaroslavyn, S. Vyzvol’na borot’ba na zakhidn'o-ukraïns’kykh zemliakh u 1919–1923 rokakh (Philadelphia 1956) Mykytiuk, D. (comp). Ukraïns’ka Halyts’ka Armiia: Materiialy do istoriï, 5 vols (Winnipeg 1958–76) Hunczak, T. (ed). Ukraine and Poland in Documents, 1918–1922 (New York 1983) Kozłowski, M. Między Sanem a Zbruczem: Walki o Lwów i Galicję Wschiodnią… 1918–1919 (Cracow 1990) Łukomski, G.; Partacz, Cz.; Polak, B. Wojna polsko–ukraińska, 1918–1919: Działania bojowe–Aspekty polityczne–Kalendarium (Koszalin–Warsaw 1994 Palij, M. The Ukrainian-Polish Defensive Alliance, 1919–1921: An Aspect of the Ukrainian Revolution (Edmonton–Toronto 1995) Pavliuk, O. ‘Ukrainian-Polish Relations in Galicia in 1918–1919,’ JUS, 23, no 1 (Summer 1998) Kuchabsky, V. Western Ukraine in Conflict with Poland and Bolshevism, 1918–1923 (Edmonton–Toronto 2009) |
|
|
|
Post by Nictoshek on Mar 2, 2014 10:26:27 GMT -7
|
|
|
|
Post by Jaga on Mar 2, 2014 12:13:47 GMT -7
John, there is still some resentment towards Ukraine among Poles of the old generation, it dates back to the war times when Ukrainians often were killing whole Polish villages.
I hope that Ukraine, at least its Eastern part will become a part of wealthy Europe soon.
I do not like the way how Russia justifies invading Crimea..... by defending its citizens. Soviets justified almost every invasion this way.
I am not sure exactly what to expect. Russia is a bully, but maybe the best solution would be for Crimea to become independent and autonomous.
|
|
|
|
Post by Jaga on Mar 2, 2014 12:14:42 GMT -7
Nictoe, this video is interesting from the historical point of view. It is a mockery of wars..... somewhat..... with a refrain "chase after a Bolshevick"  |
|
|
|
Post by pieter on Mar 3, 2014 7:47:37 GMT -7
John, there is still some resentment towards Ukraine among Poles of the old generation, it dates back to the war times when Ukrainians often were killing whole Polish villages. I hope that Ukraine, at least its Eastern part will become a part of wealthy Europe soon. I do not like the way how Russia justifies invading Crimea..... by defending its citizens. Soviets justified almost every invasion this way. I am not sure exactly what to expect. Russia is a bully, but maybe the best solution would be for Crimea to become independent and autonomous. Jaga, Not only these Ukrainians killed people in Polish villages, they also committed mass murder, rape, looting and destroying public and private property Under German/Austrian Nazi Germany's command. The cruelty, viciousness and sadism of the Ukrainian and Russian SS in Warsaw during the Warsaw uprising (1944) was sometimes bigger than the brutality and terror of German SS and Wehrmacht units there. (next to the German Gestapo, Sicherheitsdienst [SD], Ordnungpolizei and Wehrmacht units with police tasks) Before the Warsaw Uprising the Ukrainian SS played a bad role during the ghetto uprising in 1943 too (see image of Ukrainian SS soldiers in the Warsaw ghetto)  Ukrainian SS volunteers during the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising in April 1943. A battalion of "Askari" - Ukrainian and Latvian volunteers, 337 men strong - had been brought in by the Germans to help storm the ghetto.  Heinrich Himmler, center, reviews troops of the (Ukrainian) Galician SS-Volunteer Infantry Division, June 3, 1944. The SS-led Ukrainian Self Defense Legion, was accused of burning down villages in Poland during World War II.Read more: Poland checking files on Nazi-led unit commander | The Times of Israel www.timesofisrael.com/poland-checking-files-on-nazi-led-unit-commander/#ixzz2uuc3KbPX Follow us: @timesofisrael on Twitter | timesofisrael on Facebook[/i] I read a book about the Warsaw Uprising, who tells the story in detail. It said that when the Armia Krajowa (the Polish resistance army) arrested German-SS and Ukrainians (Russians) that they were executed immediately (due to the human rights violations that were carried out by the German SS troops and their Ukrainian and Russian henchmen) and that German and Austrian Wehrmacht soldiers were spared and treated according to the Geneva conventions. (how to treat a prisoner of war) Ukrainians got a black 'U' painted on their back.  In the picture Polish soldiers of the 27th "Wołyńska" Division of the Armia Krajowa.1944. Polish AK soldiers in Wołyń (Western Ukraina) were fighting for freedom against Ukrainian fascists and Russian/Ukrainian communists. They had to fight with the Nazi Germans (Wehrmacht and Waffen-SS), Soviets (Red Army, NKVD and Sovjet Partisans) and Ukrainians (Ukrainian Insergent Army, UPA and other Ukrainian paramilitary forces). History was not gentle for them, but after many years, they were appreciated and respected. Morover, they were never defeated.Cheers, Pieter |
|
|
|
Post by kaima on Mar 3, 2014 9:25:06 GMT -7
John, there is still some resentment towards Ukraine among Poles of the old generation, it dates back to the war times when Ukrainians often were killing whole Polish villages. I hope that Ukraine, at least its Eastern part will become a part of wealthy Europe soon. I do not like the way how Russia justifies invading Crimea..... by defending its citizens. Soviets justified almost every invasion this way. I am not sure exactly what to expect. Russia is a bully, but maybe the best solution would be for Crimea to become independent and autonomous. Jaga, that harkens back to the Old Days when the Poles were slaughtering Ukies as well. There were centuries of Polish;-Lithuanian domination and Ukrainian fights for independence, and the resentment that Polish cultural and economic exploitation. Looking at this tangled history from the west, the episodes you refer to were simply a continuation of these centuries of struggle, with each side slaughtering one another at times. Much like a Pole would tell a Russian "stay home, inside your own borders, a Ukrainian will tell a Pole the same thing: Stay home inside your own borders, perhaps then we can be good neighbors! |
|
|
|
Post by pieter on Mar 3, 2014 11:09:48 GMT -7
Kaima, Jaga, John, Nicetoe and Karl, We have to look at Ukraine, Russia, Poland, Belarus, Slovakia, Hungary, the Czech republic, Romania (and Moldova), Germany and Austria from the perspective of today, 44 years of Sovjetdominance and occupation in Central- and Eastern-Europe and the SovjetUnion ( Western-Ukraine and the Baltic states which were Sovjet member states of the SovjetUnion agains their wish and ignoring their democratic rights for selfdetermination) and 69 years of democracy in Western-Europe. For the Polish families which familymembers were murdered, wounded or raped by Ukrainian SS or UPA members of the Polish villages and Warsaw; Ukraine, Ukrainians and Ukrainian news will stay ambivalent, colored, not neutral and that of a neighbor with a different identity and a neighbor who occupies some disputed Polish lands from Eastern-Poland. (The Poles who had to leave Lwów, present day Lviv, and other former Polish land) Generations of people, the offspring of the Polish victims of the Ukrainian genocide against Poles and ethnic cleansing (by both the Sovjets and Ukrainian nationalists) have forgotten their grandparents or ancesters experiences during these dark war and post-war years. They grew up in the Peoples Republic Poland were information and historical knowledge about these days was limited or prohibited, and after that in the free and democratic Poland of after 1989 (the present day Poland).  Symon Vasylyovych Petlura (Ukrainian: Си́мон Васи́льович Петлю́ра, Russian: Симо́н Васи́льевич Петлю́ра; May 10, 1879 – May 25, 1926) was a publicist, writer, journalist, Ukrainian politician, statesman of the Ukrainian People's Republic, and national leader who led Ukraine's struggle for independence following the Russian Revolution of 1917 (1918-1921). Ukrainian President Victor Yushchenko pays tribute to Symon Petliura at Petliura's grave in Paris, 2005 Stepan Andriyovych Bandera (Ukrainian: Степан Андрійович Бандера) (1 January 1909 – 15 October 1959) was a Ukrainian revolutionary politician and one of the leaders of Ukrainian national movement in Western Ukraine (Galicia), who headed the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists (OUN).Ofcourse Kaima is very right that the Ukrainians centuries ago were oppressed by the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth which occupied Ukrainian land, where the Ukrainian farmers were dominated and ruled by Polish Roman-Catholic landlords and their Polish-Jewish administrators (who worked for the Polish nobility; both magnats and schlachtza). Ofcourse Ukrainians were maltreated by Poland in the first half of the 20th century too during the several conflicts that took place in the Interbellum (1919-1939) in the border region of Poland and Ukraine. Many people don't know much about history and for instance the Polish-Ukrainian tensions, ethnic clashes and wars during the First half of the twentieth century. Many people also do not know a lot about the Polish-Ukrainian, the Polish-Lithuanian, Polish-German (Polish-German conflicts in Silesia during the twenties and early thirties. You had both German and Polish Freikorps paramilitary units in that Polish-German border region near the Czech republic), Polish-Czech and Polish-Russian (Sovjet) tensions before the Second World War either. American and European people do know little about the European history in general and Central- and Eastern-European history in particular. If you don't know anything about the religious fabric of Ukraine, the ethnic built up of Ukraine and the history of the Habsburg Austrian-Hungarian empire (and it's occupation the countries of the Czechs, Slovakians, Ukrainians, Poles, Hungarians, Slovenians, Bosnians, Croats and large parts of Serbia and Romania, and smaller parts of Italy and Montenegro) you don't understand the history of Ukraine, Central- and Eastern-Europe.  Roman-Taras Yosypovych Shukhevych (Ukrainian: Рома́н-Тарас Йо́сипович Шухе́вич; also known by his pseudonym Taras Chuprynka; June 30, 1907 – March 5, 1950) was a Ukrainian politician, military leader, and General of the Ukrainian Insurgent Army (UPA).( en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Shukhevych / pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Szuchewycz / de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Schuchewytsch / ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A8%D1%83%D1%85%D0%B5%D0%B2%D0%B8%D1%87,_%D0%A0%D0%BE%D0%BC%D0%B0%D0%BD_%D0%98%D0%BE%D1%81%D0%B8%D1%84%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%B8%D1%87 - for Eric-) Ukrainian Christianity and Churches St. George's Cathedral, Lviv. Basic information. Location, Lviv, Ukraine. Liturgical rite, Byzantine Rite. Particular Church, Ukrainian Greek CatholicAlthough separated into various denominations, most Ukrainian Christians share a common faith, a unique blend of Byzantine practices and Slavic mythology. These Eastern Christian traditions, in the form of both Eastern Orthodox and Eastern Catholic Churches, have been at various historic times closely aligned with Ukrainian national self-identity. Currently, three major Ukrainian Orthodox Churches coexist, and often compete, in the country: the Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the Kyivan Patriarchate, the Ukrainian Orthodox Church ( Moscow Patriarchate), and the Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox Church. Additionally, a significant body of Christians belong to the Eastern Rite Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church, and a smaller number in the Ruthenian Catholic Church. While Western Christian traditions such as Roman Catholicism and Protestantism have had a limited presence on the territory of Ukraine since at least the 16th century, worshipers of these traditions remain a relatively small minority in today's Ukraine. If you understand the meaning, identity and the difference between the Eastern Rite Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church ( the Ukrainian Greek Catholics with their Byzantine rite) and the Russian Orthodox church, you are a little bit aware of the difference between Ukrainian Ukrainians and Russian Ukrainians. Confusingly many Ukrainian Orthodox christians belong to the the Ukrainian Orthodox Church ( Moscow Patriarchate) too. The Eastern Rite (Ukrainian Orthodox connection to Rome) shows the dual or pluriform identity of Ukrainian christianity, culture and identity, in-between Roman and Byzantine influences, being a combination of both. If you understand this you understand Western-Ukraine and Ukrainians better.  Ukrainian priest of he Eastern Rite Ukrainian Greek Catholic Churchen.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_OrthodoxThe First World War (1914-1918), The Polish–Ukrainian War (1918 and 1919), the Polish–Soviet War (February 1919 – March 1921), the man-made famine in the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic Holodomor (1932-1933), the Second World war (1939-1945), and the postwar Ukrainian nationalist insurgency against the Sovjets and Communist Poland and communist Czechoslovakia (1945-1949), Ukraine inside the SovjetUnion (1922–1991) and the heavy polarised Ukrainian politics of post-Sovjet Ukraine have determined the fate of present day Ukraine. Like Poland due to the Second World War and earlier bad experiences of occupation by it's neighbors ( Germany [ Prussia], Austria and Russia; the partitions) had and has it's anti-German, anti-Russian and anti-Ukrainian sentiments, Ukraine has it's own anti-Russian, anti-Polish and probably anti-Hungarian (minority in the South-West of Western-Ukraine; see Nictoe's Ethno-linguistic map of Ukraine in his post on page 14 of the thread Poland Neighborhood), anti-Romanian/Moldavian and certainly anti-semitic sentiments. This xenophobia, discrimination and racism (hatred and aversion against another ethnic and religious minority is racism) is understandable if you know Ukrainian history. Not excusable or acceptable but understandable. I didn't like the fierce anti-German, anti-Russian and anti-semitic opinions, statements and sentiments of some Polish people I met in Warsaw had in August 2006, when I was there (these people were not strangers, but people I know, people who treated me well. But I didn't like their opinions. Not average Poles, not represenatives of the Polish people, but segments of the Polish society. Ultra-conservative, arch-Catholic and nationalist Poles with anti-Western-European liberal, anti-Russian and distrusting German intentions views. - Prawo i Sprawiedliwość supporters- The confusing fact is that the daughter of one of these people was married with a German, who learnt Polish. Their stance towards Germany and Germans was ambivallent. A German son in law and half German grandchildren, but stil sceptic and distrustfull towards Germany) I think that Ukrainians from Western-Ukraine are struggling with their identity, because they were occupied by Poles and Lithuanians, Austrians, Czarist Russia and Sovjet Russia for centuries and decades. In their independe struggle they had Anarchist, Nationalistic and Social-democratic Patriotic (non-communist; Symon Vasylyovych Petlura) parties, forces and para-military groups who fought in the Russian Civil War (November 1917 – October 1922), the Ukrainian–Soviet War (1917–21) (Ukrainian: Українсько-радянська війна) the Polish–Ukrainian War (1918 and 1919) and Polish–Soviet War (February 1919 – March 1921), and the other armed and political conflicts mentioned above here. The Ukrainians fought both at the side of the ' Whites' (Pro-Czarist armies during the civil war) and the ' Reds'. (the Bolsheviks forces of Red Guards, Red army and the armed military component of the Cheka, the Bolshevik state security apparatus) Ukrainian anarchist guerrilla bands were active during the Russian Civil War. Some claimed to be loyal to the Ukrainian state, but others acknowledged no allegiance; all fought both Red and White Russians with equal ferocity in the opening stages of the Civil War. Of all the anarchist groups, the most famous and successful was that of the peasant anarchist leader Nestor Makhno, aka Batko (" Father"), who began operations in the southeastern Ukraine against the Hetmanate regime in July 1918. In September 1918, he formed the Revolutionary Insurrectionary Army of Ukraine, or Anarchist Black Army, with arms and equipment largely obtained from retreating Austro-Hungarian and German forces. During the Civil War, the Black Army numbered between 15,000 and 110,000 men and was organized on conventional lines, with infantry, cavalry, and artillery units; artillery batteries were attached to each infantry brigade. Makhno's cavalry incorporated both regular and irregular horse-mounted (guerrilla) forces, and was considered among the best-trained and most capable of any of the cavalry units deployed by any side in the Russian Civil War.  Nestor Ivanovych Makhno or Bat'ko ("Father") (October 26, 1888 – July 6, 1934) a Ukrainian anarcho-communist revolutionary and the commander of an independent anarchist army in Ukraine during the Russian Civil War.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian–Soviet_War |
|
|
|
Post by pieter on Mar 3, 2014 13:10:28 GMT -7
Stepan Bandera's vews towards other ethnic groupsPoles Monument to Poles killed by UPA, Liszna, PolandIn May 1941 at a meeting in Krakow the leadership of Bandera's OUN faction adopted the program " Struggle and action for OUN during the war" (Ukrainian: "Боротьба й діяльність ОУН під час війни») which outlined the plans for activities at the onset of the Nazi invasion of the Soviet Union and the western territories of the Ukrainian SSR. Section G of that document –" Directives for first days of the organization of the living state" Ukrainian: "Вказівки на перші дні організації державного життя» outline activity of the Bandera followers during summer 1941 In the subsection of " Minority Policy" the OUN-B ordered the removal of hostile Poles, Jews, and Russians via deportation and the destruction of their respective intelligentsias[/b], stating further that the " so-called Polish peasants must be assimilated" and to " destroy their leaders." In late 1942, Bandera's organization, the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists, was involved in a campaign of ethnic cleansing of Volhynia, and in early 1944, these campaigns began to include Eastern Galicia. It is estimated that nearly 70,000 Poles, mostly women and children along with unarmed men, were killed during the spring and summer campaign of 1943 in Volhynia by the OUN-Bandera which bears primary responsibility for the massacres.
Despite the central role played by Bandera's followers in the massacre of Poles in western Ukraine, Bandera himself was interned in a German concentration camp when the concrete decision to massacre the Poles was made and when the Poles were killed. During his internment, from the summer of 1941, he was not completely aware of events in Ukraine and moreover had serious differences of opinion with Mykola Lebed, the OUN-B leader who remained in Ukraine and who was one of the chief architects of the massacres of Poles. Bandera was thus not directly involved in those massacres, although it cannot be ruled out that they would have occurred had he been present.
Mykola Lebed (Ukrainian: Микола Лебідь; January 11, 1909 - July 18, 1998), also known as Maksym Ruban, Marko or Yevhen Skyrba, was a Ukrainian political activist, Ukrainian nationalist and guerrilla fighter. He was among those tried, convicted, and imprisoned for the murder of Polish Interior Minister Bronislaw Pieracki, in 1936. The court sentenced him to death, but the state commuted the sentence to life imprisonment. He escaped when the Germans invaded Poland in 1939. As leader of OUN-B he is responsible for the ethnic cleansing of Poles in Volhynia and Eastern Galicia.
Lviv soccer fans at a game vs. Donetsk. The banner reads "Bandera - our hero"
|
|
|
|
Post by Jaga on Mar 3, 2014 23:32:44 GMT -7
Jaga, that harkens back to the Old Days when the Poles were slaughtering Ukies as well. There were centuries of Polish;-Lithuanian domination and Ukrainian fights for independence, and the resentment that Polish cultural and economic exploitation. Looking at this tangled history from the west, the episodes you refer to were simply a continuation of these centuries of struggle, with each side slaughtering one another at times. Much like a Pole would tell a Russian "stay home, inside your own borders, a Ukrainian will tell a Pole the same thing: Stay home inside your own borders, perhaps then we can be good neighbors! Yeah, we were all killing each other during the war times and then we were mixing with each other and making mixed babies during the times of peace I do not want to sound cynical, but I think, I have also some mixed blood. While we visited Western Ukraine once in the past, the Ukranian guy, looked at me and said that I look like a typical (and pretty) Ukrainian girl....it was long time ago when I was young, but somehow it sounded so truthful, that I remember it till now. |
|
|
|
Post by Jaga on Mar 3, 2014 23:35:15 GMT -7
Guys, did you hear that Russia was trying to put a story that Ukrainian ex-president invited them to Crimea and in the Western Ukraine there is a nationalistic-antijewish front... and therefore Russia has to get involved into this war.
Anyways, it does not sound any better or worse than US democracy Invading Iraq....not a long time ago.
|
|
|
|
Post by kaima on Mar 3, 2014 23:49:03 GMT -7
Guys, did you hear that Russia was trying to put a story that Ukrainian ex-president invited them to Crimea and in the Western Ukraine there is a nationalistic-antijewish front... and therefore Russia has to get involved into this war. Anyways, it does not sound any better or worse than US democracy Invading Iraq....not a long time ago.
It is interesting to hear America's right wing criticize Obama for the Russian invasion, interesting that they did not use the same criticism with Bush when Putin invaded Georgia.
Screw the politicians. I hope the people live in peace and prosper!
Kai |
|
|
|
Post by JustJohn or JJ on Mar 4, 2014 4:52:45 GMT -7
Kai, I agree wholeheartedly with your last comment.
The American and British treaty with the Ukraine brought to light  Col. Henadii Lachkov of the Ukrainian Army kisses his nation's colors.March 3, 2014 Despite a handful of Western media outlets claiming a relatively unknown treaty binding the United States and Great Britain to the defense of the Ukraine may lead to armed conflict with Russia, a closer look indicates American and British intervention may not be in the offing, as reported by the right-of-center The American Spectator and France24.com on Mar. 3, 2014; and London's The Telegraph and The Daily Mail on Feb. 28, 2014. With at least 2,000 heavily armed Russian troops effectively occupying strategically key areas in the Ukraine's Crimean Peninsula, former Ukrainian President Yulia Tymoshenko openly declared that "Vladimir Putin knows that by declaring war on us, he is declaring war on the guarantors of our security - the U.S. and Great Britain." Despite Tymoshenko's claim of war, a closer examination may cast doubt on her Unknown by most Yanks and Brits, The Budapest Memorandum (officially titled the Memorandum on Security Assurances in Connection with Ukraine’s Accession to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons) was signed off on by both Western powers as well as the Ukrainians and Russians in 1994. The Ukraine agreed to surrender their sizable nuclear weapons arsenal directly to Moscow, with the guarantee of no future interference from the Russians in the independence and sovereignty of the Ukrainian nation and her citizens. With The Budapest Memorandum comes the pledge from both the United States and the United Kingdom to ensure, among other specifics, that the former World War II Big Three agree to "respect the independence and sovereignty and the existing borders of Ukraine" as well as to "reaffirm their obligation to refrain from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity." By terms of the agreement the Big Three are, on paper at least, honor and legally bound to "reaffirm their commitment to seek immediate United Nations Security Council action to provide assistance to Ukraine ... if Ukraine should become a victim of an act of aggression..." If, after undoubtedly much talk in the United Nations, the Russians are eventually found to officially be in violation of the agreement, the American Eagle and the British Bulldog are forbad from launching air strikes against the Russian Bear. The only thing the West could launch in defense of the Ukraine only comes in the form of diplomatic protest
|
|
|
|
Post by JustJohn or JJ on Mar 4, 2014 5:34:19 GMT -7
Russia warns it could ‘crash’ U.S. economy if sanctions enacted over Ukraine crisis By Agence France-Presse Tuesday, March 4, 2014 7:14 EST Pro-Russian demonstrators hold placards reading 'Crimea for peace' as they stand on a T-34 Soviet tank, set as a WWII monument in front of the Crimean parliament on Feb. 27, 2014 [AFP] Russia could reduce to zero its economic dependency on the United States if Washington agreed sanctions against Moscow over Ukraine, a Kremlin aide said on Tuesday, warning that the American financial system faced a “crash” if this happened. “We would find a way not just to reduce our dependency on the United States to zero but to emerge from those sanctions with great benefits for ourselves,” said Kremlin economic aide Sergei Glazyev, saying Russia could stop using dollars for international transactions. “An attempt to announce sanctions would end in a crash for the financial system of the United States, which would cause the end of the domination of the United States in the global financial system,” he added. Agence France-Presse Agence France-Presse AFP journalists cover wars, conflicts, politics, science, health, the environment, technology, fashion, entertainment, the offbeat, sports and a whole lot more in text, photographs, video, graphics and online.
|
|
